BF2S Forums A lesson from Indonesia?

PureFodder wrote:

If you want to know why they're so successful try a google search for 'Indonesia Human rights'.

Actually, no.  Those issues are largely in occupied territories.  The reason that they've had so much success is police work.  Indonesian and Australian authorities have worked together, built the evidence, arrested the terrorists, and taken them to court.  It's that simple.

Bubbalo wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

If you want to know why they're so successful try a google search for 'Indonesia Human rights'.

Actually, no.  Those issues are largely in occupied territories.  The reason that they've had so much success is police work.  Indonesian and Australian authorities have worked together, built the evidence, arrested the terrorists, and taken them to court.  It's that simple.

So, what you are saying is you actually can deal with terrorists sticking to Geneva Conventions and still get justice done?  That can't be possible, can it?

Spark wrote:

It seems Indonesia has been having much more success against it's own terrorists problems than anyone else has.

So far, they've managed to capture:

- Hanbali
- Dujana (the new head of JI)
- a few others, can't recall. I think they got Noordin Top, can't remember.
- restricted the activities of its spiritual head, Bashir.

So for two or so years now, Indonesia has thankfully had a respite from the terrorist attacks which plagued it during the first few years of this century.

What have they been doing which has allowed them such success? Is it the fact that, unlike America, they are fighting terrorists in their own backyard, and not half a world away?

My ex-wife is an Indonesian Muslim and the fact is that they are getting these guys WITH the help of American and Australian intelligence. There are a lot of problems in Indonesia...a lot of in-fighting, corrupt government officials, radicals, religious attacks from both Muslims and Christians against each other. About a year ago, 3 school aged girls were beheaded and their heads were placed on the porches of christian schools...why? Because these little girls were Christians on their way to school. They were probably 7 to 10 years old.

Of course they aren't fighting terrorists a world away, because the terrorists are living and killing in their own back yards. They are all around that country on every main island and they are having a hard enough time dealing with their own problems. Underground religious police hand out pamphlets threatening harm to people who go watch movies or eat at a McDonald's or don't wear the right clothing. Theatres, malls, restaurants and shop are closed daily because of these threats.

You try to show America in a bad light because its fighting terror over seas....I would gladly have it that way than these types of people running around my neighborhood, threatening me or killing my daughter because she is not a certain religion or being dressed the way they want. There is NO RESPITE from terror in Indonesia...there was a restaurant bombing less than a year ago and the threats, shut downs and killings happen almost daily there. You don't hear it as much because it doesn't usually involve a white person....the victims are usually Indonesians themselves. Don't try to paint a pretty picture of success "UNLIKE AMERICA" when its so much problematic there than anything in America.

Don't try to use Indonesia as a political point against America being at war in Iraq....there is no comparison.

Surely if Indonesia is that much worse off than the US it should be harder for them to catch terrorists?

And yet, they manage it.................

That's because they used, surveillance, counter insurgency, intelligence gathering and infiltration. Standard anti terrorist techniques. And they are getting results and no attacks. And the largest Muslim nation on earth to boot.

Certainly beats blowing the shit out of a nations info structure, disbanding its military and police and hundreds of thousands of Innocent civilians loosing their lives.

I wonder what the death count for the USA's war on terror is up against the Indonesians? Or does that not matter as long as no one on US soil is hurt?

M.O.A.B wrote:

Did I say the death count doesn't matter? Err no I didn't, so don't twist things. Also going by your logic of counter-insurgency tactics the British did a good job in NI seeing as that's what the SAS used to do. Also strange how you seem to be more supportive to a country with a bad human rights record than the US which has a pretty damn good one.

The SAS while deployed here did quite well. The SAS commanders wanted to construct underground hides so they could pop out, attack and then disappear. But the army over ruled them and watch towers on high grounds which were a disaster were built instead. I think the British had learned allot of lessons coming towards the end of the conflict and they infiltrated the IRA at every level. So I agree with you on that.

I am more supportive of their way of approaching anti terrorism than I am of the USA's methods I mentioned nothing about supporting human rights? And I am twisting things.mmmmm.

In Indonesia they are infiltrating the cells, bribing cell members to become informers, same as was done here. They are getting results without killing civilians.  What about the human rights of the civilians in the Iraqi? Do their human rights  not count, seeing as you brought it up? They had nothing to do with terrorising the US.

WOW....jahman....you are really uninformed. Did you read my post at all. I have family who live in Indonesia, my ex-wife is from there and she is Muslim. There is nothing peaches and cream over there. They are in a battle just like we are except its among their own people and of course the media doesn't say or talk about it because its not about Iraq. There is terrorism in Indonesia on a much larger scale that you think or even realize. People live in fear from the radical side. You can walk down a street and be handed a pamphlet threatening you and your family harm if you step foot in a theater or what is considered western culture.

There are killings in Indonesia, be-headings (even of small children) by radical groups against Christians. You sit there and act like the success that they have had in catching some of the terrorists was done in a nice, lawful way. Torture is a very big tool in how they get these guys. They are playing under a whole set of different rules and scrutiny than the U.S.. There are very serious human rights issues and a lot of corrupt people running that country. Yes, they are an ally at this point and we have helped them in many ways in catching some of these guys but I will make this clear.

The people of Indonesia live with a constant threat of terrorism, whether it be by threats, be-headings, bombings(there was a recent restaurant bombing that of course saw little to no press) and killings based on religious affiliation. Shops, restaurants, phone shops, internet cafes are ALWAYS targeted by these radical groups. They will walk in and shut you down by force. They will walk in and destroy the property, computers, movie screens so that they are unusable and this is a DAILY occurrence. Indonesia is far, far, far from having success against terrorism...they are in a major struggle between moderate and radical Muslims. My ex-wife was a moderate Muslim often spoke of how free she felt in America and freedom from constant threats from those groups. Don't kid yourself, they have gotten a few major terrorists targets....but it is much, much bigger that.

Go ahead, if you think Indonesia is such a great, peaceful place not under radical influence or threat...go show your ass up there and see how you are treated. Do you know that there are warnings about traveling to Indonesia...especially people of European descent. Do you know why? Because these radical groups have vowed to start kidnapping tourists and to bomb popular tourist attractions. I won't even let my daughter go there because she is of mixed race but she looks more European. Of course there are safe places to go....but at this time, i won't take that risk. Just because someone posted here that they have had success in getting this or that guy means absolutely nothing....the big picture is far beyond you think you know.

I get my information on Indonesia from my 2 friends who work as teachers in Jakarta. One of them has never seen an act of violence in 3 years, the other has been their 6 years and seen one fight and it involved a drunk westerner and a taxi driver. Yes the regime is brutal (I never said at any time anything different) its why they have peaceful streets in Jakarta, step out of line and loose a hand etc.

Its funny how my two white Irish friends have survived so long. By your reckoning they should have been killed when they stepped of the planes, but no, they continue to work and socialize freely with no armed guards or threats from anyone. Maybe other parts of Indonesia are more dangerous as you speak of, all I know is what I hear from my friends in Jakarta. There was an attack on the Australian embassy at some point, but it didn't bother them, guess they were used to bombings coming from here. I'll admit I don't keep an eye on Indonesian affairs, I get emails from my friends and its usually about chasing women and partying, so I take it they don't feel threatened.

What seams to have got you guys raised is my advocating under cover intel work, infiltration of cells and snatch squads over blowing buildings up from the air to get your targets, along with a bunch of innocents who's relatives will no doubt grab a AK47 for revenge. I seen both methods tried here and infiltration and intelligence method worked way over pure military might.

Haha the US obviously can fuck shit up. But still, there's no country I'd rather live in more.

JahManRed wrote:

I get my information on Indonesia from my 2 friends who work as teachers in Jakarta. One of them has never seen an act of violence in 3 years, the other has been their 6 years and seen one fight and it involved a drunk westerner and a taxi driver. Yes the regime is brutal (I never said at any time anything different) its why they have peaceful streets in Jakarta, step out of line and loose a hand etc.

Its funny how my two white Irish friends have survived so long. By your reckoning they should have been killed when they stepped of the planes, but no, they continue to work and socialize freely with no armed guards or threats from anyone. Maybe other parts of Indonesia are more dangerous as you speak of, all I know is what I hear from my friends in Jakarta. There was an attack on the Australian embassy at some point, but it didn't bother them, guess they were used to bombings coming from here. I'll admit I don't keep an eye on Indonesian affairs, I get emails from my friends and its usually about chasing women and partying, so I take it they don't feel threatened.

What seams to have got you guys raised is my advocating under cover intel work, infiltration of cells and snatch squads over blowing buildings up from the air to get your targets, along with a bunch of innocents who's relatives will no doubt grab a AK47 for revenge. I seen both methods tried here and infiltration and intelligence method worked way over pure military might.

No violence in three years...??????????????????????? There was a restaurant bombing less than a year ago. A young man walked into the restaurant, walked to the center of it and blew himself up, there is even video of it and your friends don't know this????????????????? The be-headings were pretty recent as well and they didn't hear of this???????????? My ex-wife, her brother and sister have personally had pamphlets given to each of them in different places warning them to stay away from Western type places (hotels, restaurant, internet shops...etc) and they were threatened with physical harm. The local movie theaters have been shut down numerous times because Muslim radicals break in and damage it so it cant be used, same for the internet and phone shops......my relatives witnessed this first hand. Your friends don't know this?????????

Pretty strange that your friends would not know this or hear about it because it is happening all over Indonesia. In fact, when the Tsunami hit Indonesia (Indonesia was the hardest hit) The Indonesian government would not even go to Aceh because it is a stronghold of the radical Muslim groups in that area. It took a long time to get any help in there because of the threats of danger even to their own people. They had to actually negotiate just to get help in there and your friends don't know that????????????? There is constant violence in Indonesia, there are constant rallies supported by the radicals and against the radicals....I have no idea where your friends live...probably Jakarta...which is really not that bad..but honestly that country is under siege from the radicals on every major island there.

You name it....terrorists are doing it. Killings, beheadings, threats, damaging property, pamphlets...anything to scare people into their way of life. If your friends dont know or haven't heard this then they live under a rock. I know for a fact it happens...because my ex-wife's family lives there and we were always concerned about how things were going and always hearing this straight from them. My ex-wife visited her family on many occasions and this stuff happened while she was there each time....first hand!!!!!!!......Not emails from a buddy!!!

I just thought I'd put this link in. It covers recent attacks, problems and captures with and without US help.

http://news.google.co.uk/news?q=Terror+ … p;ct=title

Last edited by M.O.A.B (2007-06-28 15:14:59)