Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Well im saying that we enfource our borders yes, but we should make immigration eaiser. Immigration like it or not everybody is what makes america. Without diffrent cultures in our enviorment we would all be protesnt whites owning slaves.
Well, it is true that immigration is a recurring theme in our culture.  The vast majority of us are either immigrants or descended from them.  Yet, with time, I start to see a lot of negative things about immigration.  I've become a bit more conservative about immigration in recent years because I've seen how we're letting in an excess of unskilled workers, while unskilled jobs are shrinking in number.

We also have issues with our native-born labor.  We seriously need to up the vocational education of our working class.  It's pretty sad when a lot of Americans are having to compete with illegals for shitty jobs.  Our own working class should be better educated and more skilled, but unfortunately, we have an education system that is far too focused on academics and not enough on trades.

Most white people in America are descended from European immigrants that came here at a time when we had a factory-based economy.  We needed loads of people to work in these factories, and our GDP grew as a result of these people.  Nowadays, we have a service based economy, and while there are still many unskilled jobs to go around, the influx of unskilled immigrants will soon surpass the number of unskilled jobs available.  It's a very bad thing to have large numbers of poor people without work enter your country.  Look at what happened to France a few years ago.

Essentially, we need to limit immigration more by making stricter requirements for immigration (namely income and skill requirements) while taking some time out to better educate the people already here.

That may seem somewhat classist, but every other First World nation in the world has at least a few skill requirements in their immigration policy.

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

If we make the act of obtaining citizenship easier then the illegal acts to get into this country will die down. Immigrants come here for work yes? Then why would they take the illegal option, get put in jail or get screwed outta pay, and possible deported when we are offering them the chance to immigrate legal with ease as long as they get a job which is what about 60-70% of immigrant families want.
In the short run, yes.  The long run isn't that simple.  Mexico has a very high birth rate.  We need to be careful in how we deal with the ramifications of this.  If we essentially have an open door policy, be prepared to see America turn into a pseudo-Mexican culture.  I don't have a problem with having to learn a second language, but I do have a problem with burdening our social systems with a massive underclass.  The standard of living in America will considerably fall if we let in too many of these immigrants because the vast majority of them are poor.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity
you would have to lower  that to 3yrs military service or everyone is gonna choose jobs. I fthey enlisted int he military thier credentals become more pronounced as they are likley to have better discepline.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA
I don't like the idea of military service for illegals.  I think we have a great military with an all volunteer force.  If this program was anything like the draft then the quality of military personnel and their lackluster performance under fire may get people killed.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Harmor wrote:

I don't like the idea of military service for illegals.  I think we have a great military with an all volunteer force.  If this program was anything like the draft then the quality of military personnel and their lackluster performance under fire may get people killed.
Its nothing like a draft. They can choose to be in the Armed force for citizenship. or they can old down a job for citizenship its thier choice.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I don't like the idea of military service for illegals.  I think we have a great military with an all volunteer force.  If this program was anything like the draft then the quality of military personnel and their lackluster performance under fire may get people killed.
Its nothing like a draft. They can choose to be in the Armed force for citizenship. or they can old down a job for citizenship its thier choice.
What about the security risks?  I mean what if an operative from al-Qaeda joins the Marines to fly a C-130 into the White House?
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Harmor wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I don't like the idea of military service for illegals.  I think we have a great military with an all volunteer force.  If this program was anything like the draft then the quality of military personnel and their lackluster performance under fire may get people killed.
Its nothing like a draft. They can choose to be in the Armed force for citizenship. or they can old down a job for citizenship its thier choice.
What about the security risks?  I mean what if an operative from al-Qaeda joins the Marines to fly a C-130 into the White House?
u actually think that the militray enlist without background checks
agwood
Member
+18|7083|I Fight for Bush !!

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:


Its nothing like a draft. They can choose to be in the Armed force for citizenship. or they can old down a job for citizenship its thier choice.
What about the security risks?  I mean what if an operative from al-Qaeda joins the Marines to fly a C-130 into the White House?
u actually think that the militray enlist without background checks
Like I stated before -

6 - Since most of the people entering under this program would have almost zero chance of obtaining a security clearance the program could only be used to fill jobs that do not require access to sensitive items, information or areas - period.

you have to have a security clearance to fly an airplane, as well as being an officer which would not be allowed either in the initial phase.

I do not think that it would have the same effect as the draft.. see points 1-9 of my previous post for the reasons why...
agwood
Member
+18|7083|I Fight for Bush !!

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Its nothing like a draft. They can choose to be in the Armed force for citizenship. or they can old down a job for citizenship its their choice.
What about the security risks?  I mean what if an operative from al-Qaeda joins the Marines to fly a C-130 into the White House?
u actually think that the militray enlist without background checks
My neighbor  (a lot of them in fact) is a recruiter for the Army, he tells me that they obtain waivers for felons all the time. The US military is a subset of the culture we live in, we have problems with Race, Gangs, Rape, Theft... you name it however, the Uniform Code of Military Justice is always there to keep most rational military folks in line. Unlike in the civilian world military justice is usually swift and severe and there is usually nothing that can be done about it.

check it our for yourself - it's pretty broad and I have seen where charges were not confirmed and guys were still punished under article 90 - 91 - 92 - 107 and so on.. trust me if the military starts proceedings against you.. you almost always get punished somehow.
http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm

Last edited by agwood (2007-07-02 00:17:04)

Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA
Ok back on topic.  So these tamperproof Employement verification cards...why shouldn't legal Americans also have this card?

What's wrong with a tamperproof National ID card?  I know in the my state the last Governor tried to give illegals Drivers Licenses. 

If they already are creating fake documents of our existing documentation, shouldn't we create a National ID card for everyone?
agwood
Member
+18|7083|I Fight for Bush !!
I understand your point however, if we enforced the immigration laws currently in place we don't need a new identification form. The US immigration system needs minor tweaking but without enforcement of current existing laws an untamperable US Citizen ID card would do nothing more than create a larger bureaucracy than we already have.

The fact of the matter is that companies love to hire illegals, they can pay them less and they do not have to pay for benefits if they don't want to. I am sure that if someone walks into the office of a construction company (for example) who speaks no English, was introduced by a relative and needs to find work immediately, the immigration part of the hiring paperwork is done with a "wink" when the happy new employee writes down their SSN?? come on.. we all know this has been happening for years.

Last edited by agwood (2007-07-02 01:25:42)

Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA
Until there is some type of Tamperproof Employment card its going to be difficult to fine employeers.  Is it the employeer's responsibility to know that the SSN and other identification presented to them is fake?  I don't think so.

I think we should outsource this program to VISA or Mastercard...they can in a couple of seconds already determine if I can buy something by swiping a card, why can't the government hire them to do that with illegals?

Or a website where an employeer goes and enters the information...gets a confirmed/not-confirmed.  Prints the confirmation information and puts it in their file.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7279|Kubra, Damn it!

agwood wrote:

I understand your point however, if we enforced the immigration laws currently in place we don't need a new identification form. The US immigration system needs minor tweaking but without enforcement of current existing laws an untamperable US Citizen ID card would do nothing more than create a larger bureaucracy than we already have.

The fact of the matter is that companies love to hire illegals, they can pay them less and they do not have to pay for benefits if they don't want to. I am sure that if someone walks into the office of a construction company (for example) who speaks no English, was introduced by a relative and needs to find work immediately, the immigration part of the hiring paperwork is done with a "wink" when the happy new employee writes down their SSN?? come on.. we all know this has been happening for years.
They're much more likely to not provide an SSN at all. The reason people are hiring them is they can pay them less than is legally permissible AND they don't have pay taxes on an employee. Most of these people work under the table. There is no record of their employment and they pay no taxes. How else can someone get away with paying them $3/hour? There's no paperwork on them. If the government really wants to scare the employers, let the IRS go after them for tax evasion rather than fining them for not doing background checks. Nobody with an ounce of brains messes with the IRS.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA
I like that idea...sick the IRS on them for back taxes.  The IRS is the most successful debt collection agency in the world.
agwood
Member
+18|7083|I Fight for Bush !!
I do like the way you guys think....

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