mafropetee
Member
+18|6578|Altamonte Springs, FL
racist is a WIDELY overused word. why is it that when a white man calls a black man the "N word", the white man is called a racist pig. but when a black man calles a white man a cracker, the black man is called "being repayed for years of slavery?" no. both are disgusting racist slurrs that are completely unneccesary when used in a serious way. and why is it that there are all these black pride parades all throughout the country that everyone celebrates, yet if there was a white pride parade, everyone would get pissed off and call them all racists? why is there a black history month, but if there was a white history month anyone who observes it would be a racist? i have lots of black, white, hispanic, etc. friends. i dont look down upon any of them for the color of their skin. and i respect people who show pride in their race, and i would love to be able to do the same. but no. i cant. because apparently, im a racist. and dont get me wrong, there are lots of racist white garbage who need to be smacked. but im just saying, whites arent the only people who are truly racist, yet they are largely the only ones being punished for it.

sorry. i know that wasnt really adding much to the main topic of this thread. i just wanted to get that out of there.

i completely agree that illegals need to shove it, go back to their own country, and learn how to actually earn your american citizenship through work, then come here legally, build up a life, and see how much better that is than just coming here illegally. not nearly as many people hate you, and you have a much better lifestyle.
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6925|Menlo Park, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hispanic people caucasian? They're essentially descendants of Spanish people aren't they?
Mexicans are Mexicans, they are essentially an Indian population that got raped by the Spanish.  They arent Caucasian. . . .

Mexicans and Latin Americans for that matter all spoke their individual dialects until they were ruined by the Spanish and Portuguese. 

The only South American country thats people look like Europeans is Argentina. . . . . . due to so many Germans bouncing from Europe!

Even in Mexico there are German street names (especially in Mexico City). . . .You can see a blond haired blue eyed Mexican who is white essentially, its pretty rare though.

But Latin Americans are not a Caucasian race, if anything they look Asian (true jungle dwelling South Americans do!).  Just cause they speak a caucasian language i.e. Spanish and Portuguese doesnt mean they are in fact caucasian.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7119|United States of America

CameronPoe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hispanic people caucasian? They're essentially descendants of Spanish people aren't they?
But we [whites] are descendants of Asians, remember?
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7196

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

would you be happier if I left?
gtfo
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina
Worldwide, white people will basically be a minority in the near future.  This is because we don't breed as quickly as most other races.

Wealthier nations (most of which are predominantly white) don't need to breed as quickly as less developed ones.  Yet, white people are slowly aging out as a race.  We need young immigrants (most of whom are something other than white) to take care of us in the long run.  When the Baby Boom generation is completely made up of senior citizens, that's gonna be a lot of old people to aid.

These young immigrants need jobs, so it all works out eventually.

I don't mind the idea of becoming a minority -- besides, I have a thing for Hispanic and East Asian women... 
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hispanic people caucasian? They're essentially descendants of Spanish people aren't they?
Sort of...  There are various reasons for it, but our government now considers Hispanic a separate race from what is typically thought of as "white."

The best explanation I can come up with is that most Hispanics in America are from Latin America -- which is a region made up of mostly people with Native American, Spanish/Portuguese, and some African lineages.  This combination of heritage has basically become a race unto its own because of the unique blend.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-07-11 15:48:03)

SealXo
Member
+309|6970

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

SealXo wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Shouldn't the rich(er) be the ones breeding since they actually have the $$$ to raise chitlins? I have no problem with Caucasians, Hispanics, or immigrants for that matter. The illegal ones ruin it for them where we get stereotypes that all Hispanics are illegals from Mexico. Illegal immigration is only one of the problems on our To-Do List. We'll see where we get in the next 20 years.
I agree with you, i am not racist. Im actually Lithuanian, and if Lithuanians were a major problem in todays society of being illegal i wouldn't like them either.I have many friends that are Muslim / Hispanic they are nice people. I just dont like terrorists/immigrants that cheat there way into america
Your post is dripping with racism and slander.  You obviously have a strong view on immigrants and hispanics/latinos in our society, which is fine, but not to the point where you are making up statistics and providing brash generalizations.

Saying you have friends from other races doesn't automatically curtail you from being racist either.
Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question

Last edited by SealXo (2007-07-11 15:55:47)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6925|Menlo Park, CA

Turquoise wrote:

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
Turquoise your right on the money! +1
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6724|Éire

fadedsteve wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
Turquoise your right on the money! +1
Exactly, sort out immigration for the sake of Americans and the sake of immigrants who contribute beneficially to America and its economy.
SealXo
Member
+309|6970

fadedsteve wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
Turquoise your right on the money! +1
lol he gets a plus one for agreeing with what i say? lawl
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7109|Canberra, AUS
There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.

Otherwise, however, I am in line with the conservatives on illegal immigration. I've said it many times before: Since when was illegal immigration legal?

Last edited by Spark (2007-07-11 16:16:16)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

SealXo wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
Turquoise your right on the money! +1
lol he gets a plus one for agreeing with what i say? lawl
I'll give you a +1 for the explanation...     Thanks again, steve...
amak1131
Member
+4|6596

CameronPoe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hispanic people caucasian? They're essentially descendants of Spanish people aren't they?
partially, yes.


well, this is our future, best we deal with it. seeing how our government is ran by a bunch of money loving idiots. "the country? screw the country! i want my money!"
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

Braddock wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Good points...  You've essentially summed up why I'm conservative on immigration policy.  In order to respect people that actually follow our laws, we are obligated to enforce them strictly.  Otherwise, why even have them?
Turquoise your right on the money! +1
Exactly, sort out immigration for the sake of Americans and the sake of immigrants who contribute beneficially to America and its economy.
Amen...  Canada seems to have sorted out its immigration issues far better than us, but then again, they don't border a poor country....
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

Spark wrote:

There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.

Otherwise, however, I am in line with the conservatives on illegal immigration. I've said it many times before: Since when was illegal immigration legal?
True...  That is an important distinction to make.  I try hard to remain open-minded and mostly free of prejudice, but it's also important to enforce laws in a consistent and effective manner.

This is why employers of illegals should also be punished.  That's a topic most politicians won't touch.
SealXo
Member
+309|6970

Spark wrote:

There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.
Woah woah back the fuck up once again.

I DO NOT hate immigrants. as you just said; i love immigrants. Just not cheaters. You know what? since you can cheat into citizenship, i think you should be able to cheat at life. Because anyone says anything about you cheating, then they will pull out the race card, OR be discriminitory.

Youre just using someones race to mask up the cheating. it is EXACTLY like the lady whos sueing Toys R Us. She got asked mandatorly for a reciept just like everyone else, but since she wanted to save some time she used her own race and said "Well im black, so you must be racist!"

200 million in the bag. All because she is darker than me. Now do you think i could do that and pull that off? Do you think the jury gives 2 shits about the person being treated unfairly? NO all they do is look at the persons skin color, and say. Well if we say no. La riot here we come.

Here is my chart of anti bullshit
Illegal immigration=Cheating
cheating=unfair in all ways
Immigration= great! Good for economy

See spark there is a fine line between what you just said, you said i hated all immigrants. If i hated all immigrants, I would hate my family? Oh man apparently im a self destructive white man.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7066|949

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
My warped views?  I can gauren-fucking-tee I have experienced far more than you have in your adolescent life.

Please show me where you found the 25% statistic, along with all your other supposed "facts" that are common knowledge.  Until then, you are lying.  I fail to believe that a hospital stay that cost a few hundred dollars a few years ago now cost your dad $100,000.  You and I both know that's bullshit.

Your observations are just that - your observations.  By no means is that the truth.

The illegals that "have it easier than a hard worker..." are few and far between buddy.  Yeah, working in a pizza kitchen for 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime and no benefits is so much easier than what I do...

Most illegal immigrants are from Mexico, I agree.  "They" don't commit most of the crimes, at least as far as statistics show.  But we can already tell that you don't make up your mind off facts, right?

Congratulations on your family for immigrating to the country legally.  I don't like the idea of illegal immigration either, but its not because I have some deluded thought in my head that "they" are all lazy or just trying to pop babies out or coming here strictly to take advantage of the people.

Summary:  You are ignorant.
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6956|...

Sweet maybe I'll start "white entertainment television" or the "white college fund".
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7066|949

Turquoise wrote:

Spark wrote:

There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.

Otherwise, however, I am in line with the conservatives on illegal immigration. I've said it many times before: Since when was illegal immigration legal?
True...  That is an important distinction to make.  I try hard to remain open-minded and mostly free of prejudice, but it's also important to enforce laws in a consistent and effective manner.

This is why employers of illegals should also be punished.  That's a topic most politicians won't touch.
And thats the bottom line.  Immigrants come here to work.  Stop the ability to obtain jobs, you stop the flow.  The politicians would rather throw out the idea of a fence along the border every so often to get the public's mind off other disastrous policy they (politicians) enact.  Despite all this talk about stopping illegal immigration, the reality is that too many people exploit cheap labor for the politicians (who also benefit from cheap labor through campaign donations) to actually put forth a realistic solution.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

SealXo wrote:

Spark wrote:

There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.
Woah woah back the fuck up once again.

I DO NOT hate immigrants. as you just said; i love immigrants. Just not cheaters. You know what? since you can cheat into citizenship, i think you should be able to cheat at life. Because anyone says anything about you cheating, then they will pull out the race card, OR be discriminitory.

Youre just using someones race to mask up the cheating. it is EXACTLY like the lady whos sueing Toys R Us. She got asked mandatorly for a reciept just like everyone else, but since she wanted to save some time she used her own race and said "Well im black, so you must be racist!"

200 million in the bag. All because she is darker than me. Now do you think i could do that and pull that off? Do you think the jury gives 2 shits about the person being treated unfairly? NO all they do is look at the persons skin color, and say. Well if we say no. La riot here we come.

Here is my chart of anti bullshit
Illegal immigration=Cheating
cheating=unfair in all ways
Immigration= great! Good for economy

See spark there is a fine line between what you just said, you said i hated all immigrants. If i hated all immigrants, I would hate my family? Oh man apparently im a self destructive white man.
I'm not sure if he was singling you out though....   Whatever the case, that Toys R Us story just shows that our legal system is bullshit.  You couldn't pull that in the U.K. or probably even in Canada.  Only America lets that kind of thing happen (for the most part).  Most 1st World Nations are more restrictive when it comes to lawsuits.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The illegals that "have it easier than a hard worker..." are few and far between buddy.  Yeah, working in a pizza kitchen for 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime and no benefits is so much easier than what I do....
I think he was primarily referring to finding work easier.  If you follow the rules as an immigrant, you have to go through a lot of paperwork to find a job in America.  Granted, you're correct that you usually end up with a much better job than an illegal by doing this.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Most illegal immigrants are from Mexico, I agree.  "They" don't commit most of the crimes, at least as far as statistics show.  But we can already tell that you don't make up your mind off facts, right?
In some areas, illegals really do commit the most crimes of any group.  They may not yet make up the majority of crime in the country as a whole, but gangs like MS-13 really have done some harm to certain border regions.
SealXo
Member
+309|6970

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

SealXo wrote:

Wa wa we wo. Hold the fuck up.

FIRST OF ALL to the guy who was questioning me on the 25% crime rate. Its been on the news a fair amount of times. Go google it it is a cold hard fact. And Ken, apparently the truth hurts to you. Becaues the truth of the matter is infact that poor immigrants come here illegally to abuse the system. Which they are doing and running down america. Am I right? I am.

And how is telling the truth being racist? Was I born yesterday or is the majority of the illegal population Hispanic. Are they causing most of the crimes? YES they are.

I'm sorry to say but you are just being a pussy by not trying to hurt anyones feelings. Thats the truth. And i do have the right to bag on illegals considering my family is full of immigrants. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who worked hard to achieve a good life.

Before you rhetorically come back on your warped views. I'd like you to answer this question. IS IT OR IS IT NOT fair for someone illegally to have it easier then a hard worker like my grandfather who came from the same depths of poverty? FOR FREE? ON MY HARD WORKING FAMILYS TAX MONEY? answer that. dont go around that question
My warped views?  I can gauren-fucking-tee I have experienced far more than you have in your adolescent life.

Please show me where you found the 25% statistic, along with all your other supposed "facts" that are common knowledge.  Until then, you are lying.  I fail to believe that a hospital stay that cost a few hundred dollars a few years ago now cost your dad $100,000.  You and I both know that's bullshit.

Your observations are just that - your observations.  By no means is that the truth.

The illegals that "have it easier than a hard worker..." are few and far between buddy.  Yeah, working in a pizza kitchen for 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime and no benefits is so much easier than what I do...

Most illegal immigrants are from Mexico, I agree.  "They" don't commit most of the crimes, at least as far as statistics show.  But we can already tell that you don't make up your mind off facts, right?

Congratulations on your family for immigrating to the country legally.  I don't like the idea of illegal immigration either, but its not because I have some deluded thought in my head that "they" are all lazy or just trying to pop babies out or coming here strictly to take advantage of the people.

Summary:  You are ignorant.
It was on FOX a few weeks ago ALL NIGHT on hannity and colmbs (colms whatever).
where 1/4th of the illegal population causes crimes. they also talked about how midde easterner teens, 20% thought it was right to suicide bomb.
I dont remember the date but i guarantee it was on. And dont give me the eww fox new bullshit please.

Hey guess what? Do you think hauling Regridgirators and Washing machines on your back 12 hours a day + overtime and no benefits is fair either??? WHO CARES you just basically suggested they should get free shit.

Guess who hauled all that shit? My family did. But instead of whining, crying and bitching about how hard it was. He saved all his money. Didn't even spend the extra dollar to buy my father a smoothie when he wanted. He saved EVERY FUCKING DIME. He didnt need these benefits.

And you totally EVADED my question.

so here is is in bright bold so you see it this time.

DO YOU think that now that my family has legally worked hard, and now my grandfather has grown old and wealthy, he should have to pay his hard earned money to an illegal alien who demands free health care, free insurance, free everything. When he had to do it under the same conditions???? please tell me? I don't like being cheated... Apparently you think it is ok? I don't understand why this person, whatever color, from whatever country should have it made for them....?
maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6855|Melbourne, AUS
don't worry guys, everyone's going to be beige in the future. Beige.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6839|North Carolina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Spark wrote:

There's a fine line between being tough on illegal immigration and hating all immigrants, which is what some people here have demonstrated. Doing so is racist to the extreme (I do not use that word lightly), and shows that you are a bigot and an ignorant fool.

Otherwise, however, I am in line with the conservatives on illegal immigration. I've said it many times before: Since when was illegal immigration legal?
True...  That is an important distinction to make.  I try hard to remain open-minded and mostly free of prejudice, but it's also important to enforce laws in a consistent and effective manner.

This is why employers of illegals should also be punished.  That's a topic most politicians won't touch.
And thats the bottom line.  Immigrants come here to work.  Stop the ability to obtain jobs, you stop the flow.  The politicians would rather throw out the idea of a fence along the border every so often to get the public's mind off other disastrous policy they (politicians) enact.  Despite all this talk about stopping illegal immigration, the reality is that too many people exploit cheap labor for the politicians (who also benefit from cheap labor through campaign donations) to actually put forth a realistic solution.
Agreed...  This is really the story behind all of this, but neither party wants to bring it up.

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