I don't think they are simply because science disproves religion.
Last edited by Villain{NY} (2007-05-11 15:41:47)
It's the opposite. It should be clear that he is not talking about any institution. All of those are the dogmatic constructs & mystical concepts rooted in myth.EVieira wrote:
In (1), Einstein is saying religion an science complement each other.topal63 wrote:
(3) Thread concept:Reconcile (1) & (2) in terms of (3).Are science and religion reconciliable?
In (2), he reinforces this in several passages:
"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility."
A feeling that given the infinitely complexity of nature forever marks our insignificance in the universe, and therefor that there is much more that science has yet to explain. A truly religious thought, as he himself put it.
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Here Einstein shows that the admiration of the scientific explanations do not contradict religion, but make it much more palpable. That is like saying theory of evolution, given all the evidence we have of it, is one of the greatest inventions of nature, or god if you are a believer, and not that it goes against any religion.
"... the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."
Here Einstein is saying that there is much more to religion than the final judgment and fanaticism, but that religiosity should be achieved through the discovery and understanding more of our world. Something that reconciles completely with first affirmation (1).
Therefore, based only on these Einstein quotes, I'd say Einstein reconciled religion and science very well. That does not mean he was a devout church goer or that he was devoted to any specific religion.
Great post topal, +1 to ya.
There is the dogmatic institution that is religion (or institutions that we know are a dogmatic religion); rooted in myth (originating in antiquity, and within a very different spirit of universal-cosmic inquiry).
There is the idea of wonder, awe, humility, etc, one feels about the cosmos, and he calls that feeling a religious feeling.
He is not trying to reconcile the dogmatic with the wonder of discovery (through science). He is saying science without "feeling" is lame and dogmatic religion is blind.
Last edited by topal63 (2007-05-11 15:49:40)
I disagree. Einstein talks of religion on a broader sense, going much beyond Christians, Muslims, Budhists, etc. He shows clear signs of being a religious person, in his admiration of nature and his feeling of humility. But also shows that he is not part of any organized religion.topal63 wrote:
It's the opposite. It should be clear that he is not talking about any institution. All of those are the dogmatic constructs & mystical concepts rooted in myth.
There is the dogmatic institution that is religion (or institutions that are religion).
There is the idea of wonder, awe, humility, etc, one feels about the cosmos, and he calls that feeling a religious feeling.
He is not trying to reconcile the dogmatic with the wonder of discovery (through science).
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
i saw on the news...in dallas tx...about some guy that made a physics equation that proved the existance of god...it looked alright, but it was all theoretical...only in the perfect situation can god exist =P
iono...i dont think the two can mix
iono...i dont think the two can mix
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." (Albert Einstein)EVieira wrote:
I disagree. Einstein talks of religion on a broader sense, going much beyond Christians, Muslims, Budhists, etc. He shows clear signs of being a religious person, in his admiration of nature and his feeling of humility. But also shows that he is not part of any organized religion.topal63 wrote:
It's the opposite. It should be clear that he is not talking about any institution. All of those are the dogmatic constructs & mystical concepts rooted in myth.
There is the dogmatic institution that is religion (or institutions that are religion).
There is the idea of wonder, awe, humility, etc, one feels about the cosmos, and he calls that feeling a religious feeling.
He is not trying to reconcile the dogmatic with the wonder of discovery (through science).
"I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet." (Albert Einstein)
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation." (Albert Einstein)
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." (Albert Einstein)
This leaves out Judaism, Christianity & Islam, they cannot be reconciled with this view.
The abstract concept of God as a label for: the cosmos, a potential ground-of-being for all-being, transcendent universal consciousness, etc - this is not a religion. That is the personalization of an abstract concept.
______
P.S. Regardless, of that [above] do you want to know how easy it is to reconcile religion with science?
Last edited by topal63 (2007-05-11 16:17:58)
Exacly. Einstein obviously is not a devout of any organized religion. But he clearly shows a feeling of the grandness of the universe, the fact that there is much more than meets the eye, that there infinitely more that science has yet to explain.topal63 wrote:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." (Albert Einstein)EVieira wrote:
I disagree. Einstein talks of religion on a broader sense, going much beyond Christians, Muslims, Budhists, etc. He shows clear signs of being a religious person, in his admiration of nature and his feeling of humility. But also shows that he is not part of any organized religion.topal63 wrote:
It's the opposite. It should be clear that he is not talking about any institution. All of those are the dogmatic constructs & mystical concepts rooted in myth.
There is the dogmatic institution that is religion (or institutions that are religion).
There is the idea of wonder, awe, humility, etc, one feels about the cosmos, and he calls that feeling a religious feeling.
He is not trying to reconcile the dogmatic with the wonder of discovery (through science).
"I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet." (Albert Einstein)
This leaves out Judaism, Christianity & Islam, they cannot be reconciled with his view.
He speaks of religiousness and religious feelings. That he doesn't believe in life after death (althought thats not clear, since he talks of the mystery of the eternity of life) or that he finds the religious dogmas harmful to the modern world doesn't contradict his religiousness. It only contradicts the churches.
Last edited by EVieira (2007-05-11 16:01:10)
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
That's getting closer...EVieira wrote:
Exacly. Einstein obviously is not a devout of any organized religion. But he clearly shows a feeling of the grandness of the universe, the fact that there is much more than meets the eye, that there infinitely more that science has yet to explain.topal63 wrote:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." (Albert Einstein)EVieira wrote:
I disagree. Einstein talks of religion on a broader sense, going much beyond Christians, Muslims, Budhists, etc. He shows clear signs of being a religious person, in his admiration of nature and his feeling of humility. But also shows that he is not part of any organized religion.
"I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet." (Albert Einstein)
This leaves out Judaism, Christianity & Islam, they cannot be reconciled with his view.
He speaks of religiousness and religious feelings. That he doesn't believe in life after death (althought thats not clear, since he talks of the mystery of the eternity of life) or that he finds the religious dogmas harmful to the modern world doesn't contradict his religiousness. It only contradicts the churches.
The abstract concept of God as a label for: the cosmos, a potential ground-of-being for all-being, transcendent universal consciousness, etc - that is not a religion. That is the personalization of an abstract concept. It is different in you than it is in me; than it was to Einstein, etc.
Religion is not a loose verbal metaphor for something - it denotes something specific (a dogmatic institution, rooted in the mythical and that originated in antiquity, within a very different spirit of universal-cosmic inquiry).
Religious is a loose verbal metaphor; inferring; connoting; something non-specific. It suggest a way of expression, say as a devotion to an idea, or a feeling of awe or wonder or curiosity. But, it is not specific nor is it dogmatic. Nor is it rooted in mythical traditions. Nor is it a feeling relegated to an institution. It is personal, individual and non-specific.
Last edited by topal63 (2007-05-11 16:22:50)
Yes, I agree. Such personification of god is no religion. But his quotes go very well with the religions: the smallness of human-kind in the face of the universe, our total ignorance given the infinity of what we still don't understand, the marvel of nature's structures, the praise to the mystery of life, etc.topal63 wrote:
That's getting closer...EVieira wrote:
Exacly. Einstein obviously is not a devout of any organized religion. But he clearly shows a feeling of the grandness of the universe, the fact that there is much more than meets the eye, that there infinitely more that science has yet to explain.
He speaks of religiousness and religious feelings. That he doesn't believe in life after death (althought thats not clear, since he talks of the mystery of the eternity of life) or that he finds the religious dogmas harmful to the modern world doesn't contradict his religiousness. It only contradicts the churches.
The abstract concept of God as a label for: the cosmos, a potential ground-of-being for all-being, transcendent universal consciousness, etc - it is not a religion. It is the personalization of an abstract concept. It is different in you than it is in me; than it was to Einstein, etc.
Einstein seems to have a deep religiousness to his observations of the world, even if he didn't abide by any holy book, church or saint.
Last edited by EVieira (2007-05-11 16:23:11)
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Science and religion can coexist, just so long as you don't take every word of the bible literally and insist against all reason and proof that it's true.
Our current understanding of the universe still leaves room for gods. And even scientists (especially nuclear physics lab techs) need something to pray to every so often.
Our current understanding of the universe still leaves room for gods. And even scientists (especially nuclear physics lab techs) need something to pray to every so often.
It doesn't matter how much we prove them that god doesn't exist, They will still believe God is here. The fact is that christian changed to suit the people. Read about how they behaved back in the medival age. That time they said earth was flat, satan lived underground and heaven is up in the sky. After few hundred years or longer they knew they where wrong about it so they change it to be able to make people believe them.
Science can be interpreted as discovering God's laws for existence.Krappyappy wrote:
"If there is no God, or if all of the religions currently existing on this Earth turn out to be false, then I suppose you could say that there is a real, fundamental, and irreconcilable conflict between religion and truth. And since science is the process of discovering truth, it would be possible to say that there was a conflict between religion and science... but equally possible, and more valid, to say that there was a conflict between religion and honesty, or religion and knowledge, or religion and reality." - eliezer yudkowski
are science and religion fundamentally opposed to each other? one accepts as truth only those facts which are supported, the other accepts as truth the subjective revelations of mind and psyche. can one truly be a religious scientist without being irrevocably tainted by the ultimate bias?
So yeah, they can be reconciled. Unfortunately, they're both mired in politics.