topal63
. . .
+533|7161

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Spark wrote:

The mere fact that you respond like this is a good indication that there is a certain fear of a terrorist attack.
No,,,he is just not naive to think that all will be roses and rainbows even after Iraq. He is smart enough to know that it won't end no matter what we do and we will always be a target as long as terrorism has legs. Its not fear, its called rational thought and looking at the big picture.
I think he (Topal) is alluding to the idea that certain factions have a vested interest in creating and maintaining a culture of fear in the United States.  I may be mistaken though.
It is more than just that. It is a false paradigm when subjcted to critical scrutiny. The so-called "war on terror" is not a war at all - it is an agenda. As part of this paradigm - it is a mode of thought - and it has permeated every aspect of the discussion. There is no perspective contained within the paradigm (the open ended agenda: "the war on terror"). And any opposition to the paradigm must be made (sadly) within the framework of the paradigm. You cannot even discuss it with people - and mention facts; or statistics; comparisons to other social issues; etc - there is only (bullshit sincerity) the appeal to denounce terrorism. As if any one criticizing the agenda (the so-called "war on terror") actually supports terrorism. It is in my opinion destined to be a moronic discussion (as all appeals to sincerity are bullshit vs substance).

The paradigm is totally supported  by the mainstream media, here Rupert Murdoch admits he tried to shape public opinion on Iraq:


The Power of Nightmares (Part 1 of  6):


The Phantom Victory (Part 1 of 6):


Shadows in a Cave (Part 1 of 6):

Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-18 09:02:52)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6728

lowing wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

On my end. . . . . 

There is nothing I can do except. . . . Stay vigilant, keep my shotguns and pistol loaded, not put myself in areas or situations that could be potential target areas.  I am just aware that in this day in age, shit can go down at any moment.

I dont live my life in fear whatsoever, however I am cognizant that there are people who wish me and my fellow countrymen/women harm. . . .

btw that Lewis Black video is hilarious!! Black on Broadway is great!! LOL!!
Actually, there is something more that we could do:

We, as a nation, could unite in the cause of saving our country from Islamic extremism.

By all the political bickering, we have put our politicians jobs on the line. This in turn forces them to handle this issue with kid gloves so they do not piss off their constituents and get voted out.

This then rolls down hill to the troops on the line who are forced to endure BULLSHIT ROE, and not be allowed to handle their business.
Instead, every death is scrutinized by the press and the politicians and a soldier will then face possible charges if, in the split second he had to react, he didn't react correctly in the eyes of Geraldo Rivera and Nancy fuckin' Grace. Or 30 insurgents are not taken out because the troops had to call it in and get permission to fire, all the while the insurgents set up their IED's or disappear into a crowd and can no longer be singled out.

This war, if it is being lost, is being lost at the hands of the American public who do not have the gumption to be bothered with defending itself and has sent that message to Washington and is felt by the troops.
Or alternatively all the pro-war Americans could unite with the anti-war Ameicans, withdraw from Iraq and use some of the troops to properly secure your borders. This would secure American citizens from terrorist attacks while having the advantages of less American soldiers being killed, saving the tax payers an obscene amount of money and solving Americas slow invasion from Mexico issue.

Maybe it's the pro-war American citizens that are causing the problem not the anti-war ones.
GATOR591957
Member
+84|7070
Does anyone find it odd that the news today tells us the top AQ figure in Iraq was captured with information on impending attacks on the US?.  What I find extremely odd is, this is on the heels of a Senate vote to pull out troops.  To add to that, the report says he was captured July 4th, two weeks ago.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6998

GATOR591957 wrote:

Does anyone find it odd that the news today tells us the top AQ figure in Iraq was captured with information on impending attacks on the US?.  What I find extremely odd is, this is on the heels of a Senate vote to pull out troops.  To add to that, the report says he was captured July 4th, two weeks ago.
The US media and the propaganda the government gets it to peddle is one of the biggest problems America faces today. Far greater than the threat from radical islam all the way over there in the middle east. The morons swallowing all this will be oblivious to the fact that capturing 'leaders' in the context of this type of terrorism is meaningless. Remember the threads celebrating the killing of Zarqawi - all the forum neocons were so full of hope: did it change the situation in Iraq one iota? Not on your life!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-18 08:51:39)

topal63
. . .
+533|7161

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Does anyone find it odd that the news today tells us the top AQ figure in Iraq was captured with information on impending attacks on the US?.  What I find extremely odd is, this is on the heels of a Senate vote to pull out troops.  To add to that, the report says he was captured July 4th, two weeks ago.
The US media and the propaganda the government gets it to peddle is one of the biggest problems America faces today. Far greater than the threat from radical islam all the way over there in the middle east. The morons swallowing all this will be oblivious to the fact that capturing 'leaders' in the context of this type of terrorism is meaningless. Remember the threads celebrating the killing of Zarqawi - all the forum neocons were so full of hope: did it change the situation in Iraq one iota? Not on your life!
Two sides of the same Ideological coin.

Islamic Jihad = the myth of the Evil Western threat on one side.
Neocon ever present Evil threat to the US (the USSR terror network, then the Islam terror network) = the myth on the other.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7108|NT, like Mick Dundee

topal63 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Does anyone find it odd that the news today tells us the top AQ figure in Iraq was captured with information on impending attacks on the US?.  What I find extremely odd is, this is on the heels of a Senate vote to pull out troops.  To add to that, the report says he was captured July 4th, two weeks ago.
The US media and the propaganda the government gets it to peddle is one of the biggest problems America faces today. Far greater than the threat from radical islam all the way over there in the middle east. The morons swallowing all this will be oblivious to the fact that capturing 'leaders' in the context of this type of terrorism is meaningless. Remember the threads celebrating the killing of Zarqawi - all the forum neocons were so full of hope: did it change the situation in Iraq one iota? Not on your life!
Two sides of the same Ideological coin.

Islamic Jihad = the myth of the Evil Western threat on one side. It's not so mythical when you invade two countries within 3 years of each other....
Neocon ever present Evil threat to the US (the USSR terror network, then the Islam terror network, the Indians, the Latin drug cartels, the evil Hun, the crazy Spanish... List goes on. ) = the myth on the other.
Edit.

Just fixing some stuff for you.

Last edited by Flecco (2007-07-18 11:41:44)

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7094|USA

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

On my end. . . . . 

There is nothing I can do except. . . . Stay vigilant, keep my shotguns and pistol loaded, not put myself in areas or situations that could be potential target areas.  I am just aware that in this day in age, shit can go down at any moment.

I dont live my life in fear whatsoever, however I am cognizant that there are people who wish me and my fellow countrymen/women harm. . . .

btw that Lewis Black video is hilarious!! Black on Broadway is great!! LOL!!
Actually, there is something more that we could do:

We, as a nation, could unite in the cause of saving our country from Islamic extremism.

By all the political bickering, we have put our politicians jobs on the line. This in turn forces them to handle this issue with kid gloves so they do not piss off their constituents and get voted out.

This then rolls down hill to the troops on the line who are forced to endure BULLSHIT ROE, and not be allowed to handle their business.
Instead, every death is scrutinized by the press and the politicians and a soldier will then face possible charges if, in the split second he had to react, he didn't react correctly in the eyes of Geraldo Rivera and Nancy fuckin' Grace. Or 30 insurgents are not taken out because the troops had to call it in and get permission to fire, all the while the insurgents set up their IED's or disappear into a crowd and can no longer be singled out.

This war, if it is being lost, is being lost at the hands of the American public who do not have the gumption to be bothered with defending itself and has sent that message to Washington and is felt by the troops.
Or alternatively all the pro-war Americans could unite with the anti-war Ameicans, withdraw from Iraq and use some of the troops to properly secure your borders. This would secure American citizens from terrorist attacks while having the advantages of less American soldiers being killed, saving the tax payers an obscene amount of money and solving Americas slow invasion from Mexico issue.

Maybe it's the pro-war American citizens that are causing the problem not the anti-war ones.
Yes of course, because this is a war for Iraq, and NOT a war against Islamic extremism. I know in liberal fantasy landa ll the world sits around in a cluster of peace harmony and tolerance, but the real world isn't like that. Sometimes, you have to stand and fight for yourself, or even the little guy.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA

m3thod wrote:

Scare mongering to maintain the culture of fear.
Interesting...if Bush doesn't let us know about an pending attack then he would be chastised for not letting us know.  But if he keeps quiet and an attack occurs he will be chastised for not informing the public.

Looks like Bush looses both ways?  Personally I would prefer the former.  Knowledge is power.


Is this another form of Bush Derangement Syndrome?
PureFodder
Member
+225|6728

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:


Actually, there is something more that we could do:

We, as a nation, could unite in the cause of saving our country from Islamic extremism.

By all the political bickering, we have put our politicians jobs on the line. This in turn forces them to handle this issue with kid gloves so they do not piss off their constituents and get voted out.

This then rolls down hill to the troops on the line who are forced to endure BULLSHIT ROE, and not be allowed to handle their business.
Instead, every death is scrutinized by the press and the politicians and a soldier will then face possible charges if, in the split second he had to react, he didn't react correctly in the eyes of Geraldo Rivera and Nancy fuckin' Grace. Or 30 insurgents are not taken out because the troops had to call it in and get permission to fire, all the while the insurgents set up their IED's or disappear into a crowd and can no longer be singled out.

This war, if it is being lost, is being lost at the hands of the American public who do not have the gumption to be bothered with defending itself and has sent that message to Washington and is felt by the troops.
Or alternatively all the pro-war Americans could unite with the anti-war Ameicans, withdraw from Iraq and use some of the troops to properly secure your borders. This would secure American citizens from terrorist attacks while having the advantages of less American soldiers being killed, saving the tax payers an obscene amount of money and solving Americas slow invasion from Mexico issue.

Maybe it's the pro-war American citizens that are causing the problem not the anti-war ones.
Yes of course, because this is a war for Iraq, and NOT a war against Islamic extremism. I know in liberal fantasy landa ll the world sits around in a cluster of peace harmony and tolerance, but the real world isn't like that. Sometimes, you have to stand and fight for yourself, or even the little guy.
If it were about Islamic extremism what the hell is anyone doing in Iraq? Iraq was not threatening anyone, was not a prime source of Islamic extremists and was not in any way at the top of the `most violently opressed country` list.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6728

Harmor wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Scare mongering to maintain the culture of fear.
Interesting...if Bush doesn't let us know about an pending attack then he would be chastised for not letting us know.  But if he keeps quiet and an attack occurs he will be chastised for not informing the public.

Looks like Bush looses both ways?  Personally I would prefer the former.  Knowledge is power.


Is this another form of Bush Derangement Syndrome?
If he endlessly keeps saying there's going to be an attack based on vague threats, then nobody will believe him when proper evidence of a forthcoming attack surfaces.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7044|132 and Bush

Pro-war? What a ridiculous term. Have we alienated ourselves so far that we actually believe that there are some who enjoy shipping their loved ones over seas to get shot at? Every decent human being wants peace. Some of them just have different opinions on the path. I would hope in the end we are all Anti-War.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6733|Éire
Cougar points out a very basic fact in his OP. The USA benefits from its geographic location, if you were under threat from Mexican or Canadian extremists your level of panic and fear would be justified but given that the majority of Islamic extremists live half the world away the possibilities of them launching any kind of truly scary offensive are minuscule at best. All that is needed is more thorough and intelligent policing within and along your own borders. Proper airport security measures and better monitoring of possible terror suspects could have stopped 9/11 and continued vigilance is all that is needed to prevent further attacks. The culture of fear visible today serves only to support the notion of 'us against them' and somehow validate the global 'war on terror' campaign.

Does anyone truly believe that terror alert colour chart is ever gonna get down to green or blue? It's quite sad but it really is like something out of a George Orwell novel.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7044|132 and Bush

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6733|Éire
Do you know what would solve that? ...better internal and border security.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7133|Tampa Bay Florida
If things really are going down now, it'd be much more convincing if they said "WE MEAN IT THIS TIME".  TBH, Bush has mentioned terrorists attacking America so many times now I think its backfired.  No one believes anything the government says anymore.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|7208|Dallas

lowing wrote:

Yes of course, because this is a war for Iraq, and NOT a war against Islamic extremism. I know in liberal fantasy landa ll the world sits around in a cluster of peace harmony and tolerance, but the real world isn't like that. Sometimes, you have to stand and fight for yourself, or even the little guy.
I don't know much about Liberal LaLaLand, nor do I know much about Neo-Con LaLaBattleland, I tend to try to keep my focus on ThisIsTheRealWorld Land.

You're worried about Liberal fantasies.

Liberals are worried about Neo-Con fantasies.

I'm worried about both of your fantasies.


If you're to damned stupid to see whats going on, I suggest picking up a history textbook and thumb through it.  I'll give you a hint as to what to look for:

British
French
British
Germans
Communists
Germans
U.S.S.R.
Terrorists
topal63
. . .
+533|7161
The origins of neocon philosophy:

Leo Strauss:

Noble lies and deadly truths - the reaction to the modern world and liberal relativism (democracy & individual freedom).

Strauss noted that thinkers of the first rank, going back to Plato, had raised the problem of whether good and effective politicians could be completely truthful and still achieve the necessary ends of their society. Strauss considered that the "noble lie" plays an underlying role in uniting and guiding members of the society. "Myths" are needed to give people meaning and purpose and to ensure a stable society. In The City and Man, Strauss discusses the myths outlined in Plato's Republic that are required for all governments. These include a belief that the state's land belongs to it even though it was likely acquired illegitimately, and that citizenship is rooted in something more than the accidents of birth. Strauss endorses the idea of "noble lies": myths used by political leaders seeking to maintain social control.

It is a philosophical system rooted in lying to the public at large in order to maintain control. It is: anti-liberal, anti-personal freedom, anti-democratic, anti-relativism, anti-critical, anti-truth, truly elitist, etc...

Shadia Drury on Strauss:
What is the relevance of Strauss’s interpretation of Plato’s notion of the noble lie?

Shadia Drury: Strauss rarely spoke in his own name. He wrote as a commentator on the classical texts of political theory. But he was an extremely opinionated and dualistic commentator. The fundamental distinction that pervades and informs all of his work is that between the ancients and the moderns. Strauss divided the history of political thought into two camps: the ancients (like Plato) are wise and wily, whereas the moderns (like Locke and other liberals) are vulgar and foolish. Now, it seems to me eminently fair and reasonable to attribute to Strauss the ideas he attributes to his beloved ancients.

In Plato’s dialogues, everyone assumes that Socrates is Plato’s mouthpiece. But Strauss argues in his book The City and Man (pp. 74-5, 77, 83-4, 97, 100, 111) that Thrasymachus is Plato’s real mouthpiece (on this point, see also M.F. Burnyeat, “Sphinx without a Secret”, New York Review of Books, 30 May 1985 [paid-for only]). So, we must surmise that Strauss shares the insights of the wise Plato (alias Thrasymachus) that justice is merely the interest of the stronger; that those in power make the rules in their own interests and call it justice.

Leo Strauss repeatedly defends the political realism of Thrasymachus and Machiavelli (see, for example, his Natural Right and History, p. 106). This view of the world is clearly manifest in the foreign policy of the current administration in the United States.

A second fundamental belief of Strauss’s ancients has to do with their insistence on the need for secrecy and the necessity of lies. In his book Persecution and the Art of Writing, Strauss outlines why secrecy is necessary. He argues that the wise must conceal their views for two reasons – to spare the people’s feelings and to protect the elite from possible reprisals.

The relation of the power-elite to the religous & religious-like mindset:
There are indeed three types of men: the wise (the elite in power), the gentlemen (i.e. the religous), and the vulgar. The wise are the lovers of the harsh, unadulterated truth. They are capable of looking into the abyss without fear and trembling. They recognise neither God nor moral imperatives. They are devoted above all else to their own pursuit of the “higher” pleasures, which amount to consorting with their “puppies” or young initiates.

The second type, the gentlemen, are lovers of honour and glory. They are the most ingratiating towards the conventions of their society – that is, the illusions of the cave. They are true believers in God, honour, and moral imperatives. They are ready and willing to embark on acts of great courage and self-sacrifice at a moment’s notice (that is this type is ready and willing to follow blindly - the noble-lies of the elite).
Irving Kristol, the father of neo-conservatism and a Strauss disciple, denounced nationalism in a 1973 essay; but in another essay written in 1983, he declared that the foreign policy of neo-conservatism must reflect its nationalist proclivities. A decade on, in a 1993 essay, he claimed that “religion, nationalism, and economic growth are the pillars of neoconservatism.” (See “The Coming ‘Conservative Century’”, in Neoconservatism: the autobiography of an idea, p. 365.)

In Reflections of a Neoconservative (p. xiii), Kristol wrote that:

“Patriotism springs from love of the nation’s past; nationalism arises out of hope for the nation’s future, distinctive greatness…. Neoconservatives believe… that the goals of American foreign policy must go well beyond a narrow, too literal definition of ‘national security’. It is the national interest of a world power, as this is defined by a sense of national destiny … not a myopic national security”.
Harry Jaffa, ... America is the “Zion that will light up all the world.”

Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-19 11:29:50)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7044|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

Do you know what would solve that? ...better internal and border security.
Trust me, I know.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
topal63
. . .
+533|7161
The origins of Islamic Jihad philosophy:

Sayyid Qutb and his reaction to the modern world and Western liberal relativism (democracy & individual freedom).

Egyptian author, Islamist, and the leading intellectual of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and 60s. He is best known in the Muslim world for his work on the social and political role of Islamic fundamentalism, particularly in his books Social Justice and Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq (Milestones).

Qutb was extremely critical of many things in the United States: its materialism, individual freedom, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, poor haircuts,triviality, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, "animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which went on even in churches), and lack of support for the Palestinian struggle. In an article published in Egypt after his travels, he noted with disapproval the sexuality of Americans:

"... the American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs — and she shows all this and does not hide it."

On American tastes in music:

"Jazz is his preferred music, and it is created by Negroes to satisfy their love of noise and to whet their sexual desires ..."

______

In Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, he argues - that anything non-Islamic was evil and corrupt, while following Sharia as a complete system extending into all aspects of life, would bring every kind of benefit to humanity, from personal and social peace, to the "treasures" of the universe.

The Muslim world had ceased to be and reverted to pre-Islamic ignorance known as jahiliyyah, because of the lack of sharia law. All non-Islamic states are thus illegitimate, including that of his native land Egypt.

Rather than rule by a pious few, (or democratic representation [23]), Muslims should resist any system where men are in "servitude to other men" -- i.e. obey other men -- as un-Islamic and a violation of God's sovereignty (Hakamiyya) over all of creation. A truly Islamic polity would not even have theocratic rulers since Muslims would need neither judges nor police to obey divine law.

The way to bring about this freedom was for a revolutionary vanguard [26] to fight jahiliyyah with a two-fold approach: preaching, and abolishing the organizations and authorities of the Jahili system by "physical power and Jihaad."

Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-19 10:54:31)

Braddock
Agitator
+916|6733|Éire

topal63 wrote:

The origins of Islamic Jihad philosophy:

Sayyid Qutb and his reaction to the modern world and Western liberal relativism (democracy & individual freedom).

Egyptian author, Islamist, and the leading intellectual of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and 60s. He is best known in the Muslim world for his work on the social and political role of Islamic fundamentalism, particularly in his books Social Justice and Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq (Milestones).

Qutb was extremely critical of many things in the United States: its materialism, individual freedom, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, poor haircuts,triviality, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, "animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which went on even in churches), and lack of support for the Palestinian struggle. In an article published in Egypt after his travels, he noted with disapproval the sexuality of Americans:

   "... the American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs — and she shows all this and does not hide it."

And their taste in music :

    "Jazz is his preferred music, and it is created by Negroes to satisfy their love of noise and to whet their sexual desires ..."
I bet Qutb was fun at parties.
topal63
. . .
+533|7161

Flecco wrote:

topal63 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

The US media and the propaganda the government gets it to peddle is one of the biggest problems America faces today. Far greater than the threat from radical islam all the way over there in the middle east. The morons swallowing all this will be oblivious to the fact that capturing 'leaders' in the context of this type of terrorism is meaningless. Remember the threads celebrating the killing of Zarqawi - all the forum neocons were so full of hope: did it change the situation in Iraq one iota? Not on your life!
Two sides of the same Ideological coin.

Islamic Jihad = the myth of the Evil Western threat on one side. It's not so mythical when you invade two countries within 3 years of each other....
Neocon ever present Evil threat to the US (the USSR terror network, then the Islam terror network, the Indians, the Latin drug cartels, the evil Hun, the crazy Spanish... List goes on. ) = the myth on the other.
Edit.

Just fixing some stuff for you.
These are the myths that I was referring to:

Side one of the ideological coin (the myth of a better Muslim world if Islamic countries reject the modern world & democracy):
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 2#p1609702

The other side of the ideological coin (the neocon propensity & justifications for outright lying - myth making):
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 7#p1609547

Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-19 11:40:28)

Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7108|NT, like Mick Dundee

topal63 wrote:

Flecco wrote:

topal63 wrote:


Two sides of the same Ideological coin.

Islamic Jihad = the myth of the Evil Western threat on one side. It's not so mythical when you invade two countries within 3 years of each other....
Neocon ever present Evil threat to the US (the USSR terror network, then the Islam terror network, the Indians, the Latin drug cartels, the evil Hun, the crazy Spanish... List goes on. ) = the myth on the other.
Edit.

Just fixing some stuff for you.
These are the myths that I was referring to:

Side one of the ideological coin (the myth of a better Muslim world if Islamic countries reject the modern world & democracy):
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 2#p1609702

The other side of the ideological coin (the neocon propensity & justifications for outright lying - myth making):
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 7#p1609547
Yeah I know, just pointing out they have been present throughout history though. There has always been a myth around to justify US expantionist economic and militaristic policy.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
CyrusTheVirus
E PLURIBUS UNUM
+36|6916|United States of America
The sooner people realise that Islam poses a very real and immediate threat, akin to the threat of communism before we defeated that, to our way of life here in the great United States of America the better. We must take the fight to the muslims on their own turf to preserve the homeland from getting attacked - pre-emptive proactive anti-terrorism. It's the only way. I just hope we wake up before it's too late and my children are learning arabic in school and facing mecca to pray five times a day.
topal63
. . .
+533|7161
You forgot to mention our wives being forced to wear a burka.
topal63
. . .
+533|7161
Ooh and you forgot to mention the sleeper cells that are already here - and what is being said at the local mosque.

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