"One day, a well to do business man was walking down the street, when he noticed a poor man sitting with a small donations cup. This man had no job and no money. The rich man, opened up his wallet, took out a five dollar bill, and put it in the poor man's cup. The next day, another poor man was walking down the street, when he came across the same poor man. Now, this poor soul had only one penny to his name. He took that penny, and placed it in that poor man's cup, and walked on. Which man gave more?"Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
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A concept people with massive disposable incomes will never be able to fully appreciate. I'm not an overly big fan of governmental aid but the reason socialist governments like the ones we have in Europe commit a larger proportion to the higher taxes we have here than in America to overseas aid is because the generosity of the individual CANNOT BE RELIED UPON. For every generous person with a sizeable disposable income there will always be one who won't spare a red cent.Elamdri wrote:
"One day, a well to do business man was walking down the street, when he noticed a poor man sitting with a small donations cup. This man had no job and no money. The rich man, opened up his wallet, took out a five dollar bill, and put it in the poor man's cup. The next day, another poor man was walking down the street, when he came across the same poor man. Now, this poor soul had only one penny to his name. He took that penny, and placed it in that poor man's cup, and walked on. Which man gave more?"Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-26 03:03:53)
Interesting thing I hadn't thought about before. These are all the ones I remember since I've been in the Army and after the service. It seems in the Army you're always being pressed for volunteer work and I did so every time regardless of the cause, as it was actually pretty fun. I've been slacking off in recent years as in Eastern Europe, charities are very much rigged and "volunteering" is considered a joke ("What do you mean, you want to work for free? Idiot...")
Religious-based charity work in Romania was a huge joke, ending with me actually punching out someone in my last job. We were supposed to be having a "walking clinic" for the kids that lived under the main rail station in Bucharest, and I was with some religiously oriented volunteers that had procured Red Cross funds to do this. I showed up for our "event", found out we had no medical supplies as I started triaging the throngs of people coming at us, some of the unwashed needing simple antibiotics for various things like gangrened hand injuries and such. All were in need of a good flea dip...but no supplies. The others in my little group decided what these people really needed was to hold hands and sing songs and pray for 2 hours. What the fuck? And then they left the place and decided to go back to one of their apartments and have pizza and champagne to celebrate their good works. I was seething nearly this entire time, got drunk, berated them about their joke of a circle jerk, knocked one of them out (he was French or Belgian or something equally annoying) and left. Haven't done charity work for over 2 years now.
1995-2000 $1200/year to the CFC (no preferences stated), $240/year to DNC starting in '96, various other MWR volunteer service
1996 Celebrity golf caddy, Monterey CA charity event
1996 Volunteer for State of California, turnover of Ft. Ord to USC campus (2 weeks)
1998 $480 donation to "Old Soldier's Home"...where do you think that Article 15 money goes?
2001-2002 $1800/year to the CFC (excluded some religious groups), single $100 donation to the USA Green Party
2002 Donation of 1991 BMW 318 to the MWR in Ramstein AFB for highschool kids, $2400 value
2003 Red Magen David as ambulance driver/medic (1 month)
2003 NCJW volunteer, repatriation of human trafficking victims (easily one of the most heart-breaking things I've ever done, 1 month)
2004-2005 International Red Cross, Romania, miscellaneous jobs including orphanage visits and homeless medical care
1995-2002 3 or 4 times annual blood donation (depends on my deployments)
So, I'd say roughly between 8 and 10% of my disposable income went to charity, along with roughly 1 weekend a month or more of my spare time. Looking back I probably could have done more, as it really was quite painless and I didn't think of it ever as doing my "liberal duty" or trying to live up to some standard. Mostly it was an opportunity to meet chicks (time spent) or try to balance my karma (the money).
And after this project is over and out the door, I have a USAID project (paid though) here in Ukraine waiting for me, something to do with the US wants an evaluation on what to spend some foreign aid money on in the Chernobyl area. It won't get my hands dirty, but it will be something.
To the OP, good luck on your original thesis, I apologize for not being the "hypocritical liberal" you were hoping for.
Religious-based charity work in Romania was a huge joke, ending with me actually punching out someone in my last job. We were supposed to be having a "walking clinic" for the kids that lived under the main rail station in Bucharest, and I was with some religiously oriented volunteers that had procured Red Cross funds to do this. I showed up for our "event", found out we had no medical supplies as I started triaging the throngs of people coming at us, some of the unwashed needing simple antibiotics for various things like gangrened hand injuries and such. All were in need of a good flea dip...but no supplies. The others in my little group decided what these people really needed was to hold hands and sing songs and pray for 2 hours. What the fuck? And then they left the place and decided to go back to one of their apartments and have pizza and champagne to celebrate their good works. I was seething nearly this entire time, got drunk, berated them about their joke of a circle jerk, knocked one of them out (he was French or Belgian or something equally annoying) and left. Haven't done charity work for over 2 years now.
1995-2000 $1200/year to the CFC (no preferences stated), $240/year to DNC starting in '96, various other MWR volunteer service
1996 Celebrity golf caddy, Monterey CA charity event
1996 Volunteer for State of California, turnover of Ft. Ord to USC campus (2 weeks)
1998 $480 donation to "Old Soldier's Home"...where do you think that Article 15 money goes?
2001-2002 $1800/year to the CFC (excluded some religious groups), single $100 donation to the USA Green Party
2002 Donation of 1991 BMW 318 to the MWR in Ramstein AFB for highschool kids, $2400 value
2003 Red Magen David as ambulance driver/medic (1 month)
2003 NCJW volunteer, repatriation of human trafficking victims (easily one of the most heart-breaking things I've ever done, 1 month)
2004-2005 International Red Cross, Romania, miscellaneous jobs including orphanage visits and homeless medical care
1995-2002 3 or 4 times annual blood donation (depends on my deployments)
So, I'd say roughly between 8 and 10% of my disposable income went to charity, along with roughly 1 weekend a month or more of my spare time. Looking back I probably could have done more, as it really was quite painless and I didn't think of it ever as doing my "liberal duty" or trying to live up to some standard. Mostly it was an opportunity to meet chicks (time spent) or try to balance my karma (the money).
And after this project is over and out the door, I have a USAID project (paid though) here in Ukraine waiting for me, something to do with the US wants an evaluation on what to spend some foreign aid money on in the Chernobyl area. It won't get my hands dirty, but it will be something.
To the OP, good luck on your original thesis, I apologize for not being the "hypocritical liberal" you were hoping for.
It is sad that the OP doesn't actually grasp the fact that there actually are people who need help. There are people who work full time, sometimes two jobs, and still can't make enough money for the basics of living. There are people who are disabled, or homeless, or totally unskilled - many of them can't easily get jobs, let alone ones that pay well enough to live off.
Then as CameronPoe said "generosity of the individual CANNOT BE RELIED UPON". If they can't provide, then the government should step in and assist the people. Come on, are you seriously going to just say "Fuck em. Sure they can't help it, but I don't care."?
And if we look at the bigger picture, what do you think yould happen to Americas impressive crime rate if the less well off were helped out? If they weren't forgotten, weren't left to the last resort (eg. of robbery, selling drugs) to get money?
I suggest that the OP edit his post to remove offensive language about "liberals".
Then as CameronPoe said "generosity of the individual CANNOT BE RELIED UPON". If they can't provide, then the government should step in and assist the people. Come on, are you seriously going to just say "Fuck em. Sure they can't help it, but I don't care."?
And if we look at the bigger picture, what do you think yould happen to Americas impressive crime rate if the less well off were helped out? If they weren't forgotten, weren't left to the last resort (eg. of robbery, selling drugs) to get money?
I suggest that the OP edit his post to remove offensive language about "liberals".
My business supports local charities, but if you honestly think anyone is going to disclose their fax number and details to an obvious ranting nutter such as yourself, you are delusional as well as insane.Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
Charity is a way to maintain the status quo, namely the fact that there will be people rich enough to give scraps of it away and people poor enough to need those scraps.
I do not believe in charity. To me it resembles a medicine that will not cure anything, but will only take the pain away for a few seconds. If you, (owner of this misguided thread) really want to do something for the have-nots of this world, then I suggest you take a different approach to the matter. Maybe something a little more drastic than stupid charity like, oh I don't know, some form of society structure that ensures the equal distribution of wealth among the people?
Then again, it is obvious that your only concern is to maintain the situation by which you have lots of extra money to spend as you wish, while at the same time take the guilt off your back for having 3 cars while your fellow man next door is hungry.
Read my sig. Galbraith is spot on.
I do not believe in charity. To me it resembles a medicine that will not cure anything, but will only take the pain away for a few seconds. If you, (owner of this misguided thread) really want to do something for the have-nots of this world, then I suggest you take a different approach to the matter. Maybe something a little more drastic than stupid charity like, oh I don't know, some form of society structure that ensures the equal distribution of wealth among the people?
Then again, it is obvious that your only concern is to maintain the situation by which you have lots of extra money to spend as you wish, while at the same time take the guilt off your back for having 3 cars while your fellow man next door is hungry.
Read my sig. Galbraith is spot on.
Last edited by oug (2007-07-26 05:22:56)
ƒ³
This thread is stupid. First off, I won't tell you how much I'm giving to charity. Second, the government, of any country in the world, has the obligation to take care of those who are poor. Charity should be more kinda a relief than a salvation.
san4, it didn't contain a response to your post as I was typing mine as you were posting yours.
Though it's not contained in this thread, I have addressed your point. It's the old "guns versus butter" argument. I'm ALL FOR taxes for the societal goods that have to be purchased by the whole. Roads, schools, water treatment plants, police, fire fighters, the military. What I'm against is taxation that provides the goods that individuals or families should provide themselves.
I'm against being taxed to buy diapers and formula for the children of the poor. If you didn't have the money to support a baby then you should have used the information given to you in sex ed class in the 6th grade, and gone and gotten the free condoms that are available all over Hell and half of Georgia. Don't ask me to feed and clothe your baby if you can't do it. I'm against welfare in general. I think the government should offer really shitty, roadside, down in a ditch jobs as a safety net for those who lose their jobs. Don't ask for a handout, come pick up dead cats in watery ditches if you want a government check. I guarantee you the time spent on the government payroll would shrink.
I'm against ANYONE telling me I have to pay ANYTHING for someone else. Nobody in this country was any worse off than my Dad when he was 18. He had me, lived in a one room efficiency apartment, and worked reading meters for the electric company. At night he had a second job at 7-11. He's now a successful physician, the President of a large clinic, and on the board of the state medical association.
I despise being told that I have to "help". I do help, but it's my right to decide to help or not. Goods that CLEARLY help all of us and keep society afloat (roads, etc.) are everyone's responsibility and I have no problem paying even more than my "fair share" because I make more than some. I do not like being told that some other person is also my responsibility. I can, and do, make that determination on my own.
Though it's not contained in this thread, I have addressed your point. It's the old "guns versus butter" argument. I'm ALL FOR taxes for the societal goods that have to be purchased by the whole. Roads, schools, water treatment plants, police, fire fighters, the military. What I'm against is taxation that provides the goods that individuals or families should provide themselves.
I'm against being taxed to buy diapers and formula for the children of the poor. If you didn't have the money to support a baby then you should have used the information given to you in sex ed class in the 6th grade, and gone and gotten the free condoms that are available all over Hell and half of Georgia. Don't ask me to feed and clothe your baby if you can't do it. I'm against welfare in general. I think the government should offer really shitty, roadside, down in a ditch jobs as a safety net for those who lose their jobs. Don't ask for a handout, come pick up dead cats in watery ditches if you want a government check. I guarantee you the time spent on the government payroll would shrink.
I'm against ANYONE telling me I have to pay ANYTHING for someone else. Nobody in this country was any worse off than my Dad when he was 18. He had me, lived in a one room efficiency apartment, and worked reading meters for the electric company. At night he had a second job at 7-11. He's now a successful physician, the President of a large clinic, and on the board of the state medical association.
I despise being told that I have to "help". I do help, but it's my right to decide to help or not. Goods that CLEARLY help all of us and keep society afloat (roads, etc.) are everyone's responsibility and I have no problem paying even more than my "fair share" because I make more than some. I do not like being told that some other person is also my responsibility. I can, and do, make that determination on my own.
One of my friends' dad is the heir to a very famous shoe company empire (I won't name it so as to guarantee their privacy), he inherited millions but, being a die hard lefty, he decided - after buying a country home for the family, a few houses for his friends and putting enough away for his kids to all enjoy great educations - to give the rest to Greenpeace.Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
...beat that!
Last edited by Braddock (2007-07-26 06:38:13)
Braddock, he might have thought differently had he earned that money himself, but good show nonetheless.
By the way, does anyone feel inclined to get together and do something cool for some group like this: http://www.cfsrf.org/ ?
He could have given the money to WWF instead.Braddock wrote:
One of my friends' dad is the heir to a very famous shoe company empire (I won't name it so as to guarantee their privacy), he inherited millions but, being a die hard lefty, he decided - after buying a country home for the family, a few houses for his friends and putting enough away for his kids to all enjoy great educations - to give the rest to Greenpeace.Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
...beat that!
Ah now credit where credit is due, it couldn't have been an easy decision to kiss goodbye to several million punts (it was before we switched to Euros)Desmiker wrote:
Braddock, he might have thought differently had he earned that money himself, but good show nonetheless.
I don't mean to create a flame war but I would sooner donate to a fund for Iraqi victims as they never asked for that conflict, just my own opinion. Plus I would suggest US tax dollars might be better spent helping the families of these people rather bolstering an already ridiculously vast war machine.Desmiker wrote:
By the way, does anyone feel inclined to get together and do something cool for some group like this: http://www.cfsrf.org/
Dersmikner hates poor people! The truth is out!
Greenpeace need the money for their great big diesel drinking tug boat that they chase whalers and fishing boats with, irony ftw!sergeriver wrote:
He could have given the money to WWF instead.Braddock wrote:
One of my friends' dad is the heir to a very famous shoe company empire (I won't name it so as to guarantee their privacy), he inherited millions but, being a die hard lefty, he decided - after buying a country home for the family, a few houses for his friends and putting enough away for his kids to all enjoy great educations - to give the rest to Greenpeace.Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
...beat that!
Also I hear Bill Gates is quite the charity guy.
Wrong.Moo? Si! wrote:
I may be off base and missed his point, but I think he was defending the hard working not the wealthy.
Taking a step back and viewing the forest and the trees, we all need to do more for humanity regardless if you write checks or not. If that means grabbing a hammer and heading out to Habitat for Humanity, or grilling burgers in the backyard for your neighbor that just got home from serving their country.
Lastly, "All religion is a crime against humanity." Religion isn't the crime, the idiot human who misuses religion is the crime along with the human that blames religion.
Religion is a crime against humanity because the belief itself detracts from our progress.
Arguing and fighting over what colour hat God wants you to wear is holding the species back, and may lead to the breakdown of civilisation per se.
And that's my fault BECAUSE I OBSERVED IT?
Archie Bunker called -- he wants his shtick back.Dersmikner wrote:
The thread on foreign aid, and the one that degenerated into a North/South thing got me to thinking about the whole idealogical debate that goes on around here every damned day between the "we work hard for our money and aren't interested in you taking it for your social programs" crowd and the "the rich greedy fucks in the world are holding the rest of us down" crowd.
All you "we need more taxes", "the rich are greedy and they don't help anyone but themselves" and "why aren't you for free lunches for the poor" cry-babies do me a favor.
Scan and post (or fax me) all your receipts for charitable donations for the 2006 tax year. If you fake em, you're a shitbag, and I'll be sure to have my accountant or someone proof all of them. I'll expect that you'll allow me to contact the organizations and verify. Anyone who can hack BF2 can surely fake receipts. First person who fakes receipts voids the deal for everyone.
All you "Barak Obama / Hillary Clinton / free health care for everyone / raise taxes on the rich" bitches just post your donations to Nothing But Nets, or Feed The Children, or the State Troopers' Fund, or similar (my call on legitimacy), and let's see if you just piss and fucking moan about everything, or if you DO anything. I don't want to know about how you stood in a fucking crowd of whiners and protested to take money from ME, I want to know what YOU sacrificed yourself. I guaran-fucking-tee you didn't touch what was given by the Republicans/Libertarians (fiscal conservatives / social liberals) here.
If just two of you consistently whiny "we need to do more for the poor" motherfuckers gave more of your cash to charity in fiscal '06 than I gave of mine (and I'll post or fax you my receipts for proof) then I'll match the board's donations to a charity of the board's choosing that is to my liking (but I'll be pretty broad about it and not just make it one of mine) up to $500 and submit proof to the board.
If not you need to lay the hell off those of us who are in higher tax brackets and aren't interested in YOU or YOUR SOCIAL BUREAUCRACY telling us how to spend OUR money.
And as long as we're at it, if everyone here donated just $10 to some charity for the families of fallen military personnel we could raise a few grand in a hurry for some family that really needs it. We should think about it.
Dersmiker, you've been owned more times in this thread than for every dollar you've donated to boost your ego-dick.
What Cam said. You can't totally get rid of government and expect a bunch of random charities which collect donated money to do a better job. Once you get that through your head, maybe you'll understand everything everyone in this thread has been saying to you.
What Cam said. You can't totally get rid of government and expect a bunch of random charities which collect donated money to do a better job. Once you get that through your head, maybe you'll understand everything everyone in this thread has been saying to you.
I'm 40. If I don't get the liberal agenda by now, chances are I'm not going to... and I'm not too sure I'm concerned about "getting owned" by a stack of mid-20s computer hippies.
I understand that government is necessary and even desirable. I'm 100% FOR taxes to pay for roads and schools and police. I'm also 100% against institutionalized, forced charity. The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself? Occasionally I will make that decision, and donate appropriately, but it's my belief that nobody has the right to take part of what I earn because they deem that someone else's child needs free breakfast.
Once you get that through your head you'll understand what I've been saying in this thread.
I understand that government is necessary and even desirable. I'm 100% FOR taxes to pay for roads and schools and police. I'm also 100% against institutionalized, forced charity. The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself? Occasionally I will make that decision, and donate appropriately, but it's my belief that nobody has the right to take part of what I earn because they deem that someone else's child needs free breakfast.
Once you get that through your head you'll understand what I've been saying in this thread.
You do realise that there are people who work just as long as you, sometimes longer, and still don't earn enough money to support themselves and their family?Dersmikner wrote:
The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself?
No doubt that is true, and it is sad, but what makes them my responsibility?mcminty wrote:
You do realise that there are people who work just as long as you, sometimes longer, and still don't earn enough money to support themselves and their family?Dersmikner wrote:
The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself?
Fine. Just realise that there are a whole bunch of people who disagree with you. The reason I believe it's necessary is because although capitalism is good it is also flawed. When the gap between rich and poor becomes too wide you get revolution and the whole sorry mess comes tumbling down. Maybe you'll understand when the US heads into a prolonged recession, when the number of people vastly outnumber the available number of jobs. What would you do? Emigrate to Mexico? I personally believe in pulling together during the hard times not greedily focussing on numero uno as many conservatives would.Dersmikner wrote:
I'm 40. If I don't get the liberal agenda by now, chances are I'm not going to... and I'm not too sure I'm concerned about "getting owned" by a stack of mid-20s computer hippies.
I understand that government is necessary and even desirable. I'm 100% FOR taxes to pay for roads and schools and police. I'm also 100% against institutionalized, forced charity. The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself? Occasionally I will make that decision, and donate appropriately, but it's my belief that nobody has the right to take part of what I earn because they deem that someone else's child needs free breakfast.
Once you get that through your head you'll understand what I've been saying in this thread.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-27 09:11:51)
That same argument can be applied to corporations (the corporate entity). Beyond their corporate earnings what obligation do they have to their employees. Buy your very own (individualistic entity) argument - none.Dersmikner wrote:
No doubt that is true, and it is sad, but what makes them my responsibility?mcminty wrote:
You do realise that there are people who work just as long as you, sometimes longer, and still don't earn enough money to support themselves and their family?Dersmikner wrote:
The decision to get up, get dressed, commute, and go to work, only to pass on the fruits of that labor to someone else, should be mine and mine alone. Who the hell are you to tell me that I MUST work to feed someone who can't feed himself?
Based upon that (consider the corporate entity - they should also not have any responsibilities):
1.) A corporation (corporate entity) should not be forced (by law) to provide health-care; a health-plan for its employees.
2.) A corporation should not be penalized, in any way, law, rule, for doing anything, regarding pension plans. Nothing should exist prohibiting them from rolling over pensions money/contributions, IRAs, 401Ks, etc, back into the corporate coffers - buy mandatory (secret internal) policies of: firing practices before vesting interest has been acquired, rolling out experienced employees for recent college grads (or simply hiring new employees at a far lower pay scale), etc.
3.) A corporation's main purposes is profit. Industry, production & employees are only necessary evils to that end.
4.) Any commitment made to the individual (employee) is only tentative - to serve the corporation - and can be modified anytime, at will, by the corporation if deemed so necessary.
5.) There should not be any requirements on 401K plans, the corporation contribution share should equal zero for all any employees.
6.) Entire employee lay-offs: relocation of operations to foreign lands thus reducing personal costs and easing environmental restrictions, are in the best interest of the corporate entity - regard for the employee's well-being is simply not a relevant issue.
7.) etc....
I don't see how a construct of this type (in this form) serves a society. It is a matter of form - that is the problem. Just because corporations exist and must make profit (to have working capital), does not mean that is the end desired from a Nations perspective. There is a beneficial relationship to the greater society at large; and that is a responsibility. Industry, production, jobs and employee well-being is the desired end-value for a Society (a Nation). That is why the corporate entity must have social restrictions placed upon it. It's an entity below, in value, to the Nation (society at large).
This relationship (as an idea) applies in reverse to tax paying employees. The government, in a sense, is your National corporate entity. Its responsibility must cross all social boundaries and be inclusive - else we are a divided society, a class society; with little or no chance of upward mobility. Those who have money will continue to have money irregardless of changes at the bottom of the money-tree. The reality is that 97% of all tax revenue is collected from the top 50% of the tax paying population in America.
Anyone can claim that they don't want their taxes going to some social program, but the fact is - there is a good chance you are already not the one contributing to a social program in any meaningful or significant way. Someone else is - and they are not complaining about a responsibility that they would gladly pay.
Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-27 10:08:14)
I agree and disagree to certain points. I do understand what he is trying to say. All he is saying is that his taxes should be used as they are for things that should be, he has no problem with supporting taxes for the number of things he has mentioned. He has a problem with giving money to people who COULD get on their own feet. In America....there are a ton and honestly, the immigration issue is making it even worse. We not only support welfare programs but now we are dealing with people who are here illegally, but that is a whole other thread.
In my own life. I could have easily just sat back and did nothing and be sitting at home living off the government. I grew up with very little, I would consider my situation less than middle class and I also grew up in Flint, Michigan....if anyone knows about anything about Flint, you will know how that area is to live. I grew up around violence (NOT in my home) but all around us. I grew up around gun shots, abuse and saw many of these things first hand. My dad worked his ass off to get us out of there and he eventually did.
I became the first child in my family to go to a 4 year college on only because I earned a full ride basketball and academic scholarship. Half way through college, I found out about a heart condition and had to quit basketball. I finished college and eventually had surgery. During my struggle with this heart condition, I hit rock bottom. I had nothing...no home, no wife, no money...NOTHING!! and never asked for ANYTHING, never went on welfare..etc.. Eventually I stood up and took charge. I started my own business at age 25 with nothing and eventually built my business to the point where I am now comfortable. I am NOT rich but I don't struggle. I'm 37 now, married to my second wife and have a beautiful daughter. Actually, my heart condition has resurfaced and I may have to have surgery again....but am I asking for hand outs...NO....I am doing what is right for my family and will never just settle for second best.
Now, I agree that I do not want my hard earned money just thrown away. Actually I have given a lot of money. I have paid for a college education for my brother in law. I have volunteered my work (architectural work) for public housing, Habitat for Humanity and I give my money directly to people in need. I do not donate to organizations because there is too much waste. The money I give I know for a fact is being used 100 percent of what I intended. There are a lot of people who do not need to be on welfare, many abuse the system and many take advantage of it. Something should be done to revamp it, to make it more secure and get the help to people who REALLY need it. I don't know how but I understand where the OP is coming from. If I can get on my feet after what I have been through....so can many others. Yes, there are people who need real help...but our society, these days, is a society of excuses. I have a problem with that.
In my own life. I could have easily just sat back and did nothing and be sitting at home living off the government. I grew up with very little, I would consider my situation less than middle class and I also grew up in Flint, Michigan....if anyone knows about anything about Flint, you will know how that area is to live. I grew up around violence (NOT in my home) but all around us. I grew up around gun shots, abuse and saw many of these things first hand. My dad worked his ass off to get us out of there and he eventually did.
I became the first child in my family to go to a 4 year college on only because I earned a full ride basketball and academic scholarship. Half way through college, I found out about a heart condition and had to quit basketball. I finished college and eventually had surgery. During my struggle with this heart condition, I hit rock bottom. I had nothing...no home, no wife, no money...NOTHING!! and never asked for ANYTHING, never went on welfare..etc.. Eventually I stood up and took charge. I started my own business at age 25 with nothing and eventually built my business to the point where I am now comfortable. I am NOT rich but I don't struggle. I'm 37 now, married to my second wife and have a beautiful daughter. Actually, my heart condition has resurfaced and I may have to have surgery again....but am I asking for hand outs...NO....I am doing what is right for my family and will never just settle for second best.
Now, I agree that I do not want my hard earned money just thrown away. Actually I have given a lot of money. I have paid for a college education for my brother in law. I have volunteered my work (architectural work) for public housing, Habitat for Humanity and I give my money directly to people in need. I do not donate to organizations because there is too much waste. The money I give I know for a fact is being used 100 percent of what I intended. There are a lot of people who do not need to be on welfare, many abuse the system and many take advantage of it. Something should be done to revamp it, to make it more secure and get the help to people who REALLY need it. I don't know how but I understand where the OP is coming from. If I can get on my feet after what I have been through....so can many others. Yes, there are people who need real help...but our society, these days, is a society of excuses. I have a problem with that.
Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-07-27 09:49:21)
The corporation argument doesn't work.
1. Yes corporations are in it for the profit of the owners. To assume they owe some debt to anyone other than the owners and those with whom they've made agreements is false.
2. Employees work under employment agreements. Those agreements include things like health insurance or 401k plans or severance packages. Even if you work for McDonald's you go to work under the auspices of an employment agreement. Chances are you signed an employee handbook which detailed the terms under which you were employed. If you don't like the deal they offer in the agreement, work somewhere else. If you're willing to accept the terms of their offer in exchange for your labor, you take the job. If they fail to live up to their end of the bargain by raiding your 401k or cutting off your health insurance, you are owed restitution and a court of law will see to that.
3. A corporation's responsibilities to those employees with whom they've made agreements in no way correlates to any potential responsibilities between two unrelated parties. I never agreed to work for or with the welfare recipient down the street. Your company agreed when it hired you to fulfill certain promises regarding pay, benefits, etc. They owe you that. I don't owe the asshole down the street as much as a wave.
1. Yes corporations are in it for the profit of the owners. To assume they owe some debt to anyone other than the owners and those with whom they've made agreements is false.
2. Employees work under employment agreements. Those agreements include things like health insurance or 401k plans or severance packages. Even if you work for McDonald's you go to work under the auspices of an employment agreement. Chances are you signed an employee handbook which detailed the terms under which you were employed. If you don't like the deal they offer in the agreement, work somewhere else. If you're willing to accept the terms of their offer in exchange for your labor, you take the job. If they fail to live up to their end of the bargain by raiding your 401k or cutting off your health insurance, you are owed restitution and a court of law will see to that.
3. A corporation's responsibilities to those employees with whom they've made agreements in no way correlates to any potential responsibilities between two unrelated parties. I never agreed to work for or with the welfare recipient down the street. Your company agreed when it hired you to fulfill certain promises regarding pay, benefits, etc. They owe you that. I don't owe the asshole down the street as much as a wave.
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