RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7152|US
Ok, here is the wall of text to give a background:

Los Angeles Times wrote:

By David G. Savage, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
November 21, 2007
WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court set the stage Tuesday for a historic ruling on whether the fiercely debated 2nd Amendment protects the rights of Americans to keep handguns at home.

The justices said they would review an appeals court decision that struck down a 31-year-old ban on handguns in Washington, D.C. The case will be heard early next year and decided by next summer.
 
While outright bans on the private possession of guns are rare, many cities and states regulate firearms. If the high court rules in favor of gun owners, the decision could open the door to challenges to regulations and restrictions on firearms across the nation.

In their appeal, District of Columbia officials say their ban on easily concealed handguns dates back to 1858. And they argue handguns are involved in most violent crime. Under the city ordinance passed in 1976, residents may keep shotguns or hunting rifles at home, but these weapons must be disassembled or have trigger locks. Handguns are illegal, except in the hands of police officers.

Six city residents challenged the ordinance as unconstitutional and said it denied them the right to have "functional firearms" at home for self defense.

The 2nd Amendment is among the best known parts of the Constitution. Its familiar words say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." These words seem to protect the right to have a gun, just as the 1st Amendment protects the rights to freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion.

In the past, many judges have dismissed the 2nd Amendment as archaic and limited to protecting a state's authority to maintain "a well-regulated militia," a phrase from the opening clause of the amendment. The 2nd Amendment's full text is: "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Although it has been hotly debated for years, the 2nd Amendment has had remarkably little impact in the courts. The ruling in March that struck down the D.C. handgun ban marked the first time a federal court had declared that a gun law violated the 2nd Amendment.

In its only ruling dealing directly with the 2nd Amendment, the Supreme Court in 1939 upheld a man's conviction for transporting a sawed-off shotgun across state lines and said these weapons had nothing to do with maintaining an effective state militia.

In their appeal, lawyers for D.C. cite this 1939 decision and argue that the words and history of the amendment show it was concerned with state militias, not individuals with guns. For example, the phrase "bear arms" is a military term, they say. The amendment "does not protect a right to own a gun for purely private uses," they maintain.

Aimed at individuals

But in recent decades, both the National Rifle Assn. and several constitutional scholars have argued the "right to keep and bear arms" was intended from the beginning to protect the rights of individual Americans to defend themselves.

In March, Judge Laurence H. Silberman said it did not make sense to view the 2nd Amendment as a protection for states, not individuals. "The Bill of Rights was almost entirely a declaration of individual rights, and the 2nd Amendment's inclusion there strongly indicates that it, too, was intended to protect personal liberty," he wrote for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.

Among the city residents who challenged the D.C. ban as unconstitutional is Dick Heller, a courthouse security guard who carries a handgun while on duty and wants to keep one at home.

"I want to be able to defend myself and my wife from violent criminals, and the Constitution says I have a right to do that by keeping a gun in my home," Heller said Tuesday. "The police can't be everywhere, and they can't protect everyone all the time."

In agreeing to hear the case, District of Columbia vs. Heller, the justices issued an order saying they would rule on whether the city's handgun ban "violates the 2nd Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes."

Wayne LaPierre, vice president of the NRA, predicted the court would proclaim that gun rights are protected by the Constitution. "I feel confident they will agree with the millions and millions of Americans who always believed this was an individual right. I think they will say the government cannot come between law-abiding citizens and their firearms," he said Tuesday.

LaPierre said Chicago and New York City also have strict handgun ordinances that could be struck down if the D.C. ban is voided by the high court.

'Judicial activism'

Gun-control advocates said they hoped the Supreme Court would reject what one called "an example of judicial activism at its worst." Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said Silberman's opinion "ignored long-standing Supreme Court precedent, discounted the express language of the 2nd Amendment, and substituted its policy preferences for those of the District's elected representatives."

The ruling in the D.C. case will be "the most important decision on guns in nearly 70 years and may be the most important ever regarding the 2nd Amendment," Helmke said.

But a Supreme Court ruling upholding gun rights would not necessarily void all manner of regulations involving firearms. Silberman's opinion agreed the government is not "absolutely barred from regulating the use and ownership of pistols. The protections of the 2nd Amendment are subject to the same sort of reasonable restrictions that have been recognized as limiting, for instance, the 1st Amendment."

Silberman said the law can certainly forbid certain persons, such as felons, from having guns. Moreover, rulings from the 19th century seemed to say "concealed weapons" can be outlawed, he said.

However, it is unreasonable and unconstitutional to forbid citizens from having handguns at home, Silberman concluded.

City officials and their lawyers argue that the D.C. gun regulation is reasonable because it allows residents to have rifles or shotguns. They also argue that the 2nd Amendment only prohibits Congress from passing national restrictions on gun ownership and doesn't apply to local governments.

Washington Mayor Adrian M. Fenty said he hoped the high court would uphold the city's ordinance. "The council enacted the handgun ban more than 30 years ago because it would reduce handgun violence," he said. "It has saved many lives since then and will continue to do so if allowed to remain in force."
So...opinions?

I think the DC ban is unconstitutional and the 2nd Amendment is addressing an individual right.  I also think that gun-control is idiotic...DC has such a low crime-rate with its strict laws--oh wait, it consistently makes the list for most homicides per capita.

Please try to remain civil!  I know this topic can be very heated.

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2007-11-28 07:42:21)

Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6742|Florida
Blame the pacifist liberals. They only see one side of things. They dont give a fuck about the constitution as long as the can try to turn the whole population into sheep by removing freedom of speech and the right to own firearms. Go hippie communism!
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6831|The Gem Saloon
meh, dont live somewhere that has stupid laws.

ironically, DC is the only place in this country where i have been mugged........


i love my guns, you cant take them.....try, and we will see who is the better shot.
SEREVENT
MASSIVE G STAR
+605|6544|Birmingham, UK
I can't see the point of guns, YOUR not killing the guy, the gun is, now, fists and feet are manly weapons.
Then blades/knives.
THEN guns.

Last edited by Bf2-GeneralArnott (2007-11-28 08:06:22)

Parker
isteal
+1,452|6831|The Gem Saloon

Bf2-GeneralArnott wrote:

I can't see the point of guns, YOUR not killing the guy, the gun is, now, fists and feat are manly weapons.
Then blades/knives.
THEN guns.
range.....you cant shoot at people with "feat".
SEREVENT
MASSIVE G STAR
+605|6544|Birmingham, UK

Parker wrote:

Bf2-GeneralArnott wrote:

I can't see the point of guns, YOUR not killing the guy, the gun is, now, fists and feat are manly weapons.
Then blades/knives.
THEN guns.
range.....you cant shoot at people with "feat".
Oooops, now if you'll excuse me i shall just go correct that "minor error".
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7173|Salt Lake City

Dragonclaw wrote:

Blame the pacifist liberals. They only see one side of things. They dont give a fuck about the constitution as long as the can try to turn the whole population into sheep by removing freedom of speech and the right to own firearms. Go hippie communism!
Read the article.  Some of the ban goes back to 1858.  The outright ban goes back 31 years, so the hippie liberals you want to blame weren't in the power position they are now.
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|7146|Charlie One Alpha
The 2nd amendment has nothing to do AT ALL with the right to own a handgun. The "right to bear arms" refers to a well-regulated militia, being practiced and trained in the use of weapons of "modern warfare." That would mean people are allowed to own bombers, tanks, nukes, howitzers, etc.

Clearly, the 2nd amendment is archaic and is only being used by gun-nuts as an excuse so they can keep their guns. The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with protecting yourself and your home, it's about having an armed militia to prevent the government from abusing their power and to hold off foreign invaders. It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.

Last edited by LaidBackNinja (2007-11-28 08:16:21)

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
PureFodder
Member
+225|6723
Please try to remain civil!  I know this topic can be very heated.
Blame the pacifist liberals. They only see one side of things. They dont give a fuck about the constitution as long as the can try to turn the whole population into sheep by removing freedom of speech and the right to own firearms. Go hippie communism!
That lasted long.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6831|The Gem Saloon

LaidBackNinja wrote:

It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.
really?
so i shouldnt be able to own a gun to defend myself from an armed intruder, even though i follow the laws?
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|7146|Charlie One Alpha

Parker wrote:

LaidBackNinja wrote:

It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.
really?
so i shouldnt be able to own a gun to defend myself from an armed intruder, even though i follow the laws?
Exactly.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6960|...

/me nods head in shame and wonders, who will our goths be
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6742|Florida

Parker wrote:

LaidBackNinja wrote:

It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.
really?
so i shouldnt be able to own a gun to defend myself from an armed intruder, even though i follow the laws?
No you have to put a big sign on the door saying "I have no weapons, rob me please because the government says I cant protect myself"
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6831|The Gem Saloon

LaidBackNinja wrote:

Parker wrote:

LaidBackNinja wrote:

It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.
really?
so i shouldnt be able to own a gun to defend myself from an armed intruder, even though i follow the laws?
Exactly.
lol.

sorry, but no.

im responsible, i follow the laws, my guns are in safes.
there is NO reason why i shouldnt be able to defend myself....unless you can give me one, which i havent seen....just you talking about how YOU think the second amendment applies to the US.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6723

Parker wrote:

LaidBackNinja wrote:

Parker wrote:


really?
so i shouldnt be able to own a gun to defend myself from an armed intruder, even though i follow the laws?
Exactly.
lol.

sorry, but no.

im responsible, i follow the laws, my guns are in safes.
there is NO reason why i shouldnt be able to defend myself....unless you can give me one, which i havent seen....just you talking about how YOU think the second amendment applies to the US.
I think he meant the law itself had nothing to do with defending your home against intruders, which it didn't.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7152|US
LBNinja, the "militia" refers to all able bodied men within a certain age group, and all women in the military under current law.  More importantly, the militia clause is a subordinate clause within the sentence (it does not contain the acting verb).  The "Shall not be infringed" clause is the active clause (thus making the Amendment an easily enforcable part of the Constitution.  The "right of the people" refers to the public at large, rather than some governmental organization, as it does in the rest of the Bill of Rights (and Constitution).

Normally, the militia were required to maintain their own arms.  These were their personal weapons and included such things as rifles, muskets, pistols, and various edged weapons.  Even if you use the argument that only weapons that would be used by the militia are protected (which I, several courts, and many "gun-control" advocates do not), you cannot infringe on the rights of the people to own handguns, as they have legitimate use by the militia.

If you prevent citizens from protecting themselves (by limiting ownership firearms), how are they supposed to resist a potentially tyrranical government?  Self-defense and common defense are not mutually exclusive!  (As a side note, the police have no duty to protect individual citizens, so where does that responsiblity lie?)

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2007-11-28 09:19:49)

Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6882|The Land of Scott Walker
QFT Raimius +1
apollo_fi
The Flying Kalakukko.
+94|6968|The lunar module

RAIMIUS wrote:

As a side note, the police have no duty to protect individual citizens
Non comprende. Who does your police protect, then?
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6884|Chicago, IL
Well, DC is not exactly the safest town in the country, so the ban has certainly had little to no effect on actual crime rates.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again, "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns."
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7127|Tampa Bay Florida

Parker wrote:

meh, dont live somewhere that has stupid laws.

ironically, DC is the only place in this country where i have been mugged........


i love my guns, you cant take them.....try, and we will see who is the better shot.
I am personally not a strong believer in gun control.

But if you knew anything about the capital you'd know that the fact DC is a violent place has nothing to do with whether or not its got gun control.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7209|PNW

Bf2-GeneralArnott wrote:

I can't see the point of guns, YOUR not killing the guy, the gun is, now, fists and feet are manly weapons.
Then blades/knives.
THEN guns.
That's fine and dandy in movies. What happens when you go to use your fists and feet and get shot?

apollo_fi wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

As a side note, the police have no duty to protect individual citizens
Non comprende. Who does your police protect, then?
They're officers of the court. But if I had to give an answer, then I'd say they protect their chances to use tasers and mace when it's not necessary, or to smirk at a little kid getting beaten up and drive off.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-11-28 10:54:46)

too_money2007
Member
+145|6745|Keller, Tx
Bullshit. Overturning this would be disatrous.

We should have the right to have guns at home, to protect ourselves and our families, just not have them in our vehicles or on our person in public. Simple as that.
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6435

LaidBackNinja wrote:

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do AT ALL with the right to own a handgun. The "right to bear arms" refers to a well-regulated militia, being practiced and trained in the use of weapons of "modern warfare." That would mean people are allowed to own bombers, tanks, nukes, howitzers, etc.
False.  Just as militiamen in Revolutionary America weren't required to keep cannons in their homes for military use, similar weapons are not suitable today for a militia purpose.  In the last Supreme Court case substantively covering the second amendment (US v. Miller) the Court found that the law banning Miller's shotgun because it had a barrel of less than 18" was constitutional because there was no evidence before the court that such a weapon was conducive to the promulgation of a well-regulated militia.  If Mr. Miller hadn't been murdered before his case was heard, his lawyer might have shown up and presented mountains of evidence proving the widespread use of such a short-barreled shotgun as a personal defense weapon in the trenches of the first World War.  They even have a name: trench guns.

Looking back to post-colonial times and seeing records of what members of the militia were required to bring to muster when their services were requested (see, for example, section 1 of The Militia Act of 1792, it is readily evident that, by today's standards, ownership of burst-fire capable rifles, and even fully automatic rifles like a light machine gun are at least arguably covered as permissible weapons under the second amendment.  This is because the Militia Act identifies specific rifles to be supplied by the militia members for their own use, and those specific rifles were the customary standard equipment used by contemporary armed forces.  Extrapolating to modern militaries, we can assume one of two things: either the people who wrote the second amendment and its subsequent enabling Acts intended for the people to forever defend themselves from enemies foreign and domestic with weapons they would almost certainly have known would become obsolete at some point, or they wrote them to provide for a protection against such enemies with the intention that as small, one-man-operated armaments advanced, so too would the people's right to be free from interference in owning them.

I think it's pretty self-evident what the sensible answer to that dichotomy is.

As such, since sidearms are nearly universal accessories for today's soldiers (getting back to your handgun statement), only a liar or someone ignorant of the second amendment's history would assert they are not covered arms.

Clearly, the 2nd amendment is archaic and is only being used by gun-nuts as an excuse so they can keep their guns. The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with protecting yourself and your home, it's about having an armed militia to prevent the government from abusing their power and to hold off foreign invaders. It's got nothing to do with home defense against burglars and muggers.
While I don't stipulate your argument, for argument's sake I'll assume it's true.  That being said, even if the second amendment doesn't protect my right to self defense from those who intend to harm me outside the scope of warfare (and in all fairness, the ninth amendment may well be better-suited for such a claim anyway), it sounds like it's a moot point anyway.  If it's my right as a member of the unorganized militia to keep small arms in my house for purposes of securing the common defense, I'll just do that and if I happen to use my instrument of national defense to blow a burglar's head off, so be it.
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|7146|Charlie One Alpha

HollisHurlbut wrote:

As such, since sidearms are nearly universal accessories for today's soldiers (getting back to your handgun statement),
False. I don't know about the U.S. army, but I sure as hell haven't been issued a handgun. Only medics and officers get em here.
But that's besides the point.

I am fiercely against people owning "home defense weapons," even though I am trained to handle a firearm. But, I speak only for my own country. I must admit, if I lived in America, I'd probably want a gun on me at all times. You don't seem to trust your own police and from what I've seen, I don't trust them either.

Over here, though, I have some faith left in the police, and besides, guns are so rare here that even if someone were to break into my house he will most likely be unarmed and I could just beat his ass up, if he doesn't run away (which they do in 99% of cases anyway.)

But bear this in mind: having a gun in your house almost triples the chance of you getting shot. (Most of the time by someone you know, most of the time BY YOUR OWN WEAPON.)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
mikkel
Member
+383|7038
I think the second amendment is aimed at protecting the individual by means of a well-regulated militia to rise up against decisions by a government or foreign force adverse to the security of the population and the ideals of the individual.

That in my head does not translate to a carte blanche for gun ownership. I don't believe in outright banning weapons, but I believe in very strict control from the second they're manufactured or imported 'till they day they're destroyed, with mandatory bi-annual examinations by the ATF or other government organisation to verify that the weapons are in the possession of the registered owner.

Anyone unable to account for the whereabouts of a firearm that is registered to be in their possession and hasn't been reported stolen, whether it's a private person, a gun store owner, an importer or a manufacturer should face heavy fines and possible jail sentences. Repeated reports of stolen firearms should result in fines and ultimately a loss of the right to own a firearm for a period of time.

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