loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6853|Columbus, OH
Does anyone have Solid State Drive (s) (SSD) in their computers / laptop? If so, how is the true performance (no lab performance) when it comes to gaming? If you have hard drive benchmark scores, please post.

Micron came out with a 32GM SSD hard drive that I am thinking of buying for me self...want to know if it is worth it over a Raptor 7200RPM hard drive.

Last edited by loubot (2007-11-30 05:44:22)

mikkel
Member
+383|6876
Primer -

The drives you see in laptops aren't really designed with performance in mind. Sure, they'll do a lot better than a regular 5200 RPM disk, but they aren't designed to be drastically better than spinning disks in general. The focus is, as it always as in laptops, more on data integrity and power requirements, and the latest laptops with SSDs will do consistent read/writes that are about on par with sequential read/writes on a 10k RPM spinning disk, but obviously with a higher I/O capacity.

For desktops, the performance is obviously key, but the technology employed in off the shelf SSDs today is pretty much identical to what's in laptops. There are new drives coming with practically unfathomable performance, reaching 800MiB/s reads and 600MiB/s writes and I/O operations in the millions per second, but these are at least a year from hitting the general market, and probably three or four years from price tags where you would even begin to speculate about putting one in your machine.

So, what we have today is pretty much the first generation of end-user SSDs, and while read and write speeds are similar to high end spinning disks, what's amasing is the actual real-world performance you get.

Spinning disks spin. Which pretty much sucks. Spinning introduces seek time, mechanical latency and data volatility. When you make a request for data, not only does your harddrive have to handle the request, but it has to move the read/write heads to the position where your operation is to take place. If you have a fresh, clean harddisk, that's not -terribly- bad, as writes will be sequential - that is, they'll be written down at the same speed at which the platter spins, with no breaks in the process, and reads will be able to read bigger files "fluently" as a consequence of this. The problem is, though, that even the smallest bit of file fragmentation on the disk results in the read/write heads having to jump back and forth between many different spots on the disk to carry out the operations, resulting in a huge overhead of mechanical latency, to the point where your sequential 50MiB/s read and sequential 30MiB/s write disk will be lucky to pull 10MiB/s / 8MiB/s.

One of the advantage SSDs have here is that there's practically no access latency. Most spinning disks operate with access latency of between 6 and 10 milliseconds, while high quality SSDs measure access times in microseconds. Arguably the biggest advantage, though is that SSDs are flash memory. That means that when you're reading or writing files, you're reading and writing to logical positions on a static medium, and the disk doesn't have to wait to perform its operation, because the positions are instantly available. This means that operations that require reading or writing a ton of small files, or from different positions inside bigger files, such as gaming or loading complex applications, gain tremendously from the use of SSDs, and this consistency across operations, circumvention of disk fragmentation, and involatility is what makes SSDs extremely appealing for very many computing tasks.

Benchmarks -

Sadly I haven't been able to find any benchmarks on any of Micron's SSDs, but I did manage to find a benchmark test comparing SuperTalent and Samsung's SSDs to a regular spinning Western Digital disk. These are upper range. ~$800 SSDs, though, so how the scores translate to mid and lower range drives, I do not know.

Access time

Real-world performance

Last edited by mikkel (2007-11-30 06:26:08)

loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6853|Columbus, OH
+1 Thanks - from what I know, Micron/Crucial will offer SSD's for PC's some time next year. I guess we will have to wait and see how it compares to a scope of traditional drives.
elbekko
Your lord and master
+36|6676|Leuven, Belgium
Problem is they are so small. 32GB is nothing these days, it won't even fit my music collection
Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|6714|King Of The Islands

Real world, SSDs aren't fast enough to be a replacement for the desktop, but in terms of battery life, they are perfect for laptops. Performance wise to those shits of things, its probably very close or surpasses.

They will also release a 64GB next year.


This came up on my RSS feeds: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/s … m?feed=rss
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6924

elbekko wrote:

Problem is they are so small. 32GB is nothing these days, it won't even fit my music collection
It's big enough for an OS though, which is what I'd stick on it if I had one.
loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6853|Columbus, OH
I am hoping a pair of 64GB can run in RAID. I have a gaming PC with a few games that do not take up a lot of space and external storage for MP3's, etc.
CrazeD
Member
+368|6948|Maine

elbekko wrote:

Problem is they are so small. 32GB is nothing these days, it won't even fit my music collection
It's big enough for a few games. I currently have the 36GB Raptor that has BF2 and a few other games. Then my 250GB for everything else.
Crypto_420
Member
+25|7118|Portland
Samsung has a 64Gb SSD, but it is close to $1,000.  2 of theses in RAID 0 would be impressive!  I must say if I was a millionare I would of already bought 2.  They have 128Gb due out in Dec/Jan.   This is when the 32Gb should start to drop in price.  I would just wait for now.  They are still trying to pick the best interface for it. SATA 3.0 ist cutting it.  I would bet they may move to 1394B or they may come up with a different interface completely.
mikkel
Member
+383|6876

Crypto_420 wrote:

Samsung has a 64Gb SSD, but it is close to $1,000.  2 of theses in RAID 0 would be impressive!  I must say if I was a millionare I would of already bought 2.  They have 128Gb due out in Dec/Jan.   This is when the 32Gb should start to drop in price.  I would just wait for now.  They are still trying to pick the best interface for it. SATA 3.0 ist cutting it.  I would bet they may move to 1394B or they may come up with a different interface completely.
I don't think a 3Gbps SATA interface is going to be maxed out by the next generation of SSDs. They're still only reaching at most ~500Mbps in both directions, and I don't see FireWire as being preferable to a dedicated internal bus in the system, to be completely honest. My guess would be that second and third generation home-use SSDs will run on SATA interfaces at 3Gbps or above, and that from the fourth generation, we'll find SSD controllers directly on the northbridge to take the huge throughput away from the FSB.
Crypto_420
Member
+25|7118|Portland
sata is half duplex, so that means your 3.0 SATA  is only 1.5 in either direction at a time, unless you have a sata controller.  even the 500Mbps are slower than the ssd drive.  Firewire b is 800mbps so im guessing they will come out with motherboard with an internal firewire b connect.  or develop  some completely new standard protocol.   

SATA will die out just as IDE did, just you watch...  There will be either a new usb 3.0, or firewire b speed and or bus...still no solid ideas
mikkel
Member
+383|6876

Crypto_420 wrote:

sata is half duplex, so that means your 3.0 SATA  is only 1.5 in either direction at a time, unless you have a sata controller.  even the 500Mbps are slower than the ssd drive.  Firewire b is 800mbps so im guessing they will come out with motherboard with an internal firewire b connect.  or develop  some completely new standard protocol.   

SATA will die out just as IDE did, just you watch...  There will be either a new usb 3.0, or firewire b speed and or bus...still no solid ideas
Most SSDs today will do ~65MiB/s reads and ~45MiB/s writes. That's an average of 800Mbps, or just about 400Mbps in each direction at the absolute optimal performance, which is rarely achieved at full load.

The duplex latency is solved easily by a bit level TDQ scheme, and even in the unlikely event that SSDs should quadruple in performance over just one generation, there's still 6Gbps SATA before a new interface is strictly needed. Obviously SATA will die, that's inevitable, but it'll still perform just fine for the next generation or two of SSDs.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6856|SE London

Crypto_420 wrote:

sata is half duplex, so that means your 3.0 SATA  is only 1.5 in either direction at a time, unless you have a sata controller.  even the 500Mbps are slower than the ssd drive.  Firewire b is 800mbps so im guessing they will come out with motherboard with an internal firewire b connect.  or develop  some completely new standard protocol.   

SATA will die out just as IDE did, just you watch...  There will be either a new usb 3.0, or firewire b speed and or bus...still no solid ideas
Ummm..... SATA is IDE - in that it is an implementation of ATA technology, obviously there have been substantial changes. But that doesn't mean ATA is dead, it has just evolved, like USB, like ISA, like PCI, like ethernet - all the standards tend to be superseded by newer versions of themselves.

USB runs slowly, due to CPU dependence, that's not going to change. Firewire is fairly quick but is too expensive and they're already on Firewire C so I don't know what you mean about new Firewire b speed.

In any case, for real speed you could do what most high speed storage solutions do these days and use an external RAID setup connected over fibre.
Crypto_420
Member
+25|7118|Portland
new meaning internal, firewire is right now mainly on external devices.  So I was referring to running that interface internally.  And as 1394C comes out B will be cheaper, and since it fits the speed specs so nicely... And as far as IDE, i should of said EIDE.  Regardless everyone got my point.  for your to compair ISA to PCI / AGP is a good example.

And sure, soon SATA 6.0 will be out, but it still isnt going to be able to keep up with ssd's.  Before this type of drive, the slowest part in the computer was the HD... Now this will soon change to the HD Cable/interface unless they start testing there ass off.  Which Im sure they have been doing already.  I bet, when motherboard chip sets start coming in 65nm we may see the 6.0SATA.  In the end its a wait of money for now. If you want speed, SCSI in RAID 0 all the way

Last edited by Crypto_420 (2007-12-03 02:27:07)

elbekko
Your lord and master
+36|6676|Leuven, Belgium
If they really reach such godlike speeds, then they should just use a fiber connection.
Freezer7Pro
I don't come here a lot anymore.
+1,447|6472|Winland

elbekko wrote:

Problem is they are so small. 32GB is nothing these days, it won't even fit my music collection
My laptop's got 13GB... And 8GB free.......
The idea of any hi-fi system is to reproduce the source material as faithfully as possible, and to deliberately add distortion to everything you hear (due to amplifier deficiencies) because it sounds 'nice' is simply not high fidelity. If that is what you want to hear then there is no problem with that, but by adding so much additional material (by way of harmonics and intermodulation) you have a tailored sound system, not a hi-fi. - Rod Elliot, ESP
CrazeD
Member
+368|6948|Maine
Keep in mind that hard drive interface is mostly a gimmick, because it does not actually improve anything. In fact, many IDE drives are just as fast as SATA 3.0 speeds, in terms of data transfer speeds. No hard drive (that I am aware of) can pump out data at 3GB/s.
elbekko
Your lord and master
+36|6676|Leuven, Belgium
13GB? My laptop has 120GB and about 5GB free...
JaMrulezass
Member
+47|6740|Hong Kong
Why cant they just relase 256GB SSD's now? Weve got the technology, its not very hard, why do they hafta keep release times so late? Weve got the technology to cram a thousands chips of 4GB flash memories into a 3 and half drive. Why dont they just do it?

Or... am I stupid?
mikkel
Member
+383|6876

CrazeD wrote:

Keep in mind that hard drive interface is mostly a gimmick, because it does not actually improve anything. In fact, many IDE drives are just as fast as SATA 3.0 speeds, in terms of data transfer speeds. No hard drive (that I am aware of) can pump out data at 3GB/s.
That's absurd to say. Of course there's a difference between hard drive interfaces. The point is that regular 1.5Gbps, 192MiB/s SATA interfaces will likely be insufficient in terms of bandwidth with the second or third generation of SSDs. Enterprise grade SSDs today have consistent optimal read/write performance of 800MiB/s and 600MiB/s respectively. That's 11.2Gbps throughput.


JaMrulezass wrote:

Why cant they just relase 256GB SSD's now? Weve got the technology, its not very hard, why do they hafta keep release times so late? Weve got the technology to cram a thousands chips of 4GB flash memories into a 3 and half drive. Why dont they just do it?

Or... am I stupid?
There are 256GiB SSDs available today. The problem is that they're hugely expensive, and not really something you put in your home computer unless you're willing to sell your house and live in your car.

Last edited by mikkel (2007-12-03 06:31:34)

Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|6714|King Of The Islands

I've underestimated the little blighters

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3167
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.
mikkel
Member
+383|6876
Here's an excerpt from an EasyCo benchmarking on the Mtron SSDs Cheez linked to:

4 Drive RAID-5 Arrays:

We ran some tests with 4 drives setup RAID-5. These tests used the Linux “software raid”
layer. This gives you an idea of what type of performance to expect for a small array:

https://digitalfreestyle.net/stuff/ssds.png

These are quite good numbers as well. The drive scales to 50,000 4K read IOPS which
is almost 4x the speed of a single drive. Another interesting characteristic is that the
drive does writes 2x the speed of a single drive. With traditional RAID-5 arrays, you
would expect random writes to be worse than this. Because flash drives do random
reads so quickly, the random write speed of RAID-5 is identical to what you would
expect from RAID-10.
That is just way beyond awesome performance. If only the disks did more IOPS on writes, any database guru would be creaming his pants at these numbers.

Last edited by mikkel (2007-12-05 03:42:01)

Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6812|Long Island, New York
With my first upcoming computer upgrade coming in Q2 '08, I've been hearing about solid state drives a lot.

Anybody have any experience with them? Is there an advantage over a 150gb raptor?
Marlboroman82
Personal philosophy: Clothing optional.
+1,022|6898|Camp XRay

not for the price right now, maybe by then but i doubt it.
https://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l250/marlboroman82/Untitled-8.png
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6812|Long Island, New York

Marlboroman82 wrote:

not for the price right now, maybe by then but i doubt it.
Well I'll have a job at circuit city with supposed benefits of getting clearance prices, so price really isn't a matter for me.

I'm just wondering what they do, why they're special, etc.

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