Tipping fails. They only wear 80s style clothes in East Germany and countries like Romania.CC-Marley wrote:
My only problem towards Europe besides most of it being anti-US is that the Europeans tip like crap and they wear 80's style clothes..
Has anyone seen Reservoir dogs?..lolCameronPoe wrote:
Tipping fails.CC-Marley wrote:
My only problem towards Europe besides most of it being anti-US is that the Europeans tip like crap and they wear 80's style clothes..
Xbone Stormsurgezz
That's not anti-Euro...just anti-France.CameronPoe wrote:
Cheese eating surrender monkeys stole my freedom fries.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
What about American anti-Europeanism?Pug wrote:
European anti-Americanism
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
It's the media that has forsaken America, not europe itself. You mostly just hear the bad things and I bet you 70% of the people that voted on that are doing it because of the Iraqi war motive, which was a very grave failure indeed.
inane little opines
I've been thinking about this post a bit, mostly because I believe you have put some thought into your answer, and that I believe some follow up is necessary.
And please refrain from the "well it depends on the situation". I think you know what I mean.
Any kind of anti-semitism there might be in Europe is, I believe, wholly detached from anything to do with America. If anything the anti-semites probably see America turning a blind eye to Israeli crimes and develop their anti-Americanism from there.
I guess my question here is does it matter if there's a democrat in office or not. Traditionally, both parties have made these types of decisions...just so happens this time its the Republicans.CameronPoe wrote:
All that began to change when I started to gain a deeper appreciation for the history of the last century or so, in particular the history of Latin America and the middle east (especially Palestine). It took the US response to 9/11 to demonstrate to the US' fellow westerners i.e., Europeans, that the great white liberator of Europe and defender from the Red Hoarde was not so squeaky clean and principled as it made itself out to be. My views regarding perhaps living in the US also began to change, especially on subsequent visits, when I realised the flaws of a system with a far more limited sense of social justice than we have here in Europe.
For you, when someone says "Americanization" is the first thing you think of negative or positive? Is "Americanization" positive or negative for your friends? How about the Irish in general?CameronPoe wrote:
Europeans do show a disdain for certain aspects of American 'culture' but to offer that up as some sort of 'You hate America' slam dunk is ridiculous.
And please refrain from the "well it depends on the situation". I think you know what I mean.
Any kind of anti-semitism there might be in Europe is, I believe, wholly detached from anything to do with America. If anything the anti-semites probably see America turning a blind eye to Israeli crimes and develop their anti-Americanism from there.
Now way man. We have plenty of Irish . 36 million or so..lolCameronPoe wrote:
When I was a young lad I trotted off to the US for 4 months in between university terms on a J1 visa. I left for the US filled with awe and excitement about visiting the great land of opportunity. For a short while after returning I even thought about going to live there after I finished uni.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
"very proud" "arrogant" "overconfident in things such as the Iraq war". This is the point of the article. Is this actually an American trait or a trait you have crowned us with? Perhaps we are ignorant of Switzerland because we don't really care about Switzerland. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease theory"...aka it ain't broken so we ain't payin' attention to it.konfusion wrote:
Ok... the reason Europeans hate the USA is probably because of the way America is portrayed in the media here:
The USA is shown as:
- very proud of itself (which we see as excessive, since we're older )
therefore, also overconfident, and arrogant, in things such as the Iraq war. In fact, Americans have probably the most arrogant image in Switzerland (even ahead of the Germans...) due to their ignorance of our culture
- absurd (justice system - ie lawsuits and caring for its own people, eating habits - ie McDonalds and all that other fast food I love it secretly, etc)
- disregarding tradition, or ruining them with silly political correctness
- stupid (Bush + ignorance of anything outside of the USA)
There's more, but that's all that came to mind right now. Also, there are things that we believe aren't right, such as the aide to Israel and the invasion of Iraq, and the way Bin Laden was originally trained by the US... And Guantanamo Bay...
-konfusion
edit:
Stuff like this doesn't help...
Perhaps we don't care about Swizerland because we have a limitation of knowledge....for instance, I know more about Canada from living there than Oklahoma or Georgia. Perhaps we have "too much" to know and Switzerland doesn't fit in our priorities.
As far as your justice system comment...to Americans, the UK justice system is screwed up. And unfortunately everyone has "the right" to sue if they want. Sure, there's consequences, but doesn't prevent someone from gambling. Secondly, in the words of the guy in Gladiator - "Are you not entertained?" News IS entertainment. If you haven't figured that out yet....
As far as "stupid" goes...sorry, but you made the exact point the guy was making...prejudice and discrimination. As far as "ignorance outside the US"...lets be honest here...how much do WE HAVE to know about your country to make you feel we aren't ignorant? Do you think if you provided a list and we learned it would change your mind? Doubtful...and as the article states...WHY IS THAT?
Americans are not hated in Europe, there just laughed at for completly stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
thats amazing, you've met 99% of America. wow.rubber.sex wrote:
Americans are not hated in Europe, there they are just laughed at for completly completely stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly unfortunately for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-12-06 20:26:36)
I don't think jealousy has a big part of today's attitudes...but it might be part of 100's of year's ago attitudes...which has somehow trickled down into the European psyche. In other words I think it's quite a reach.FlemishHCmaniac wrote:
It's quite simple really, Europe had a leading position and you knocked us off the throne. Compare it to a father who gets frustrated because his son beats him in sports. We are condemned to a second-rate status.
On a personal note, I dislike the fact that many Americans consider what they are doing as a "God-given" mission, proclaiming they're the best making American culture a bit self-congratulatory. At the same time however, it makes the culture self-critical because Americans are willing to preserve their lead on the rest so it's not all bad.
I think the media plays a great role in the anti-American sentiments because the news about the USA we get here is so lopsided and always focusses on the absurd, the violent and the retarded. The media is sending a distorted image of America. It doesn't really help to always see the Evangelical nutcases or other American extremists.
As far as the media goes - Unfortunately people like to laugh and be horrified...so guess what gets put in the news. Seriously is it any different in your country?
You have a little more opportunity to have a "sticky" news item in the US because...there's more people....
Of course they are experts in "the rest of the world". They created the failed borders of colonial Africa we live with today.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
thats amazing, youve met 99% of america. wow.rubber.sex wrote:
Americans are not hated in Europe, therethey are just laughed at for completly stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
Xbone Stormsurgezz
The question raised in the article has to do with the question of why Europe ignores it's own past and treats Americans like their retarded little brother. In other words, why is America uncivilized when the same behavior was utilized by Europeans in the past...or better yet...in recent times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … _in_EuropeBraddock wrote:
Wow ...that article sent my bullshit meter off the chart.
The whole article is ultimately one person tying together several separate strands to fit his own biased view.
The fact of the matter is that ultimately if you carry out questionable actions many people will take exception to these acts; and the US have carried out many questionable acts in it's past,
As far as this:
- looking at Vietnam now...was it a failure? South Korea?whether it's picking sides in conflicts in Asia
You'll have to refresh my memory on which one you're talking about...ps. if you got a better solution, do tell...it's pretty screwed up anyhow.assisting in the making and breaking of regimes in central and south America?
- agree...but we aren't the only people in there. what about afghanistan? forget one? or kuwait?invading Iraq on the grounds of weapons of mass destruction
- but I guess okay for other countries to aid Israel as long it isn't guns? I thought it's a questionable human rights record country. Or I guess it's easy to ignore US aid given to other countries.or selling weapons to a country that has a questionable humans rights record.
But none of this matters...you missed the point of the article...look beyond the rhetoric....
How can we be anti-European and ignorant of what happens beyond our borders at the same time?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
What about American anti-Europeanism?Pug wrote:
European anti-Americanism
Easy:
/care
Well, if you are not already aware...my source is pretty much the voice of the Neo-Con. The reviewer Thornton (aka writer of the article I cited) wrote a book called "Decline & Fall: Europe's Slow Motion Suicide" on why the EU will fail.B.Schuss wrote:
lol, QFT. I think the generalizations are mutual. But they are just that, generalizations. Personally, I am not anti-american. I object to some of its policies, but that is directed only at the current government, not at america in general.
And seriously, if the threads posted here in D&ST are any kind of indication, there is just as much anti-europeanism as there is anti-americanism.
Cameron summed it up pretty well. Europe is a diverse continent, and the idea that we all rally behind people who protest the iraq war in front of US embassies is absurd. If anything, we are mostly indifferent towards the US, and the youth has even a favorable image if america. I'd have to read the fulll book to know this, but hasn't it occured to Markovits', that some of the criticism directed at america could actually be justified ?
To me, this is just another pointless political ramble without any real contribution, just as stupid, biased and one-sided as the folks who constantly bash France and Germany for not following the US into the iraq war.
Get over yourselves. Just because some of us have stopped sucking up to the US on every possible occasion doesn't mean we hate you.
Ummmm....no. I'm sure there's a lot of politics there.
However, I often think about the US image, and changing it. Are people really anti-American or is it anti-war? And I wonder sometimes how much is "the US is wrong" versus "it's popular to think the US is wrong, so the US is wrong". This Markovits book (which I will not be reading) is the first time I've ever seen someone try to use history to establish prejudice. I thought it was interesting. That's my purpose really - I'm wondering how much is "anti-American" because of action, instead of following the herd. What caught my eye was the idea "Americanization" when used in Europe automatically has a bad connotation. I think that's true.
Lastly, Victor Davis Hansen who founded the site has written a really good book - Carnage in Culture. It's not about politics at all, but it discusses how certain ideals with a culture were instilled within each country's soldiers and applied it to battles which were won when they should have been lost. For instance - why self-criticism in democracy caused the US to lose Vietnam, why nationalism is key (Athens versus Sparta), and why a volunteer army is better than conscripts (Alexander versus Xerxes). So I visit the site every once and a while...half the time I'm thinking the dude is crazy. I haven't liked any of his other books, btw...but this one is good.
not everything is tied to history. If that were true, the US and England would never have become allies. And I am pretty sure that for every negative example of European prejudice against the US in history, I can come up with an equally important positive example. The Marshall-Plan, for example, which basically kept Berlin alive in the lockdown after WWII. Or Kennedy's visit to Berlin when he spoke his famous line "I am a Berliner", or Reagan speaking in Berlin, asking Gorbatchew to "tear down this wall".Pug wrote:
..Are people really anti-American or is it anti-war? And I wonder sometimes how much is "the US is wrong" versus "it's popular to think the US is wrong, so the US is wrong". This Markovits book (which I will not be reading) is the first time I've ever seen someone try to use history to establish prejudice.
Historically, Europeans have lots of reasons to view the US in a positive light. But there is no mention of it in Markovit's book, it seems. That's why I said I believe it's a useless, politically motivated ramble.
Cultural prejudice may play a role in the perceptions of some, but I dare say the majority of us ( Americans and Europeans ) have left that behind. Or are you still mad at the British ?
The answer is that it depends on what Democrat. Bill Clinton, for instance, was much admired in Europe and especially in Ireland. Democrat administrations have been just as culpable as the Republican Party for stinker foreign policies and economic/actual imperialism/exploitation so really it boils down to the man himself, not particularly the party. Current US presidential candidates that would be looked upon favourably by Europeans right now would be Barack Obama, Ron Paul and perhaps John McCain (who although he's a hawk, he seems to be a principled one).Pug wrote:
I've been thinking about this post a bit, mostly because I believe you have put some thought into your answer, and that I believe some follow up is necessary.
I guess my question here is does it matter if there's a democrat in office or not. Traditionally, both parties have made these types of decisions...just so happens this time its the Republicans.
In general 'Americanization' is deemed to have negative connotations. That does not apply just to Europe but to the entire world as far as I can gather on my travels (although some Latin American countries, having been ravaged by US economic exploitation, still seem to idolise the US). It is seen as an erosion of our culture and values. I know one person for instance who boycotts all American produce, which is difficult to do he tells me.Pug wrote:
For you, when someone says "Americanization" is the first thing you think of negative or positive? Is "Americanization" positive or negative for your friends? How about the Irish in general?
And please refrain from the "well it depends on the situation". I think you know what I mean.
I'll put it like this: Americanization, Islamicization, any external/alien culture, concept or creed is viewed dimly by traditionally minded Europeans who wish to preserve their identity.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-07 05:06:26)
Off the top of my head Nicaragua, Haiti, El Salvador, Chile, Cuba, possibly Venezuela, Guatemala (twice).Pug wrote:
You'll have to refresh my memory on which one you're talking about...ps. if you got a better solution, do tell...it's pretty screwed up anyhow.assisting in the making and breaking of regimes in central and south America?
In that one post you managed to represent everything I hate about the UK. Well done.UK|Hooligan wrote:
Get a pint glass and pour in half a stella and smirnoff ice = Turbo Shandy = winLocoloki wrote:
were not all bad, im drinking guinness and bass right now
Oh so we are generalizing? Ok, I'll play ball. Since Russian women have a reputation of being cold and hairy all European woman are such. You guys all smell like shit, you have France to thank for that. All of your food is boiled and crappy, everyone point at the Irish for being raging alcoholics as well. How many Polish does it take to screw in a light bulb? All of Europe is equally as stupid, right? Wait a minute, you guys all wear excessive gold cruising around in an IROC wearing a jumpsuit with your chest hair exposed and your hair greased back. And we can all thank none other than our Italian friends for that. Greeks.....anal. Germans.....pissed off. Ukraine.....no comment. Amsterdam....heroin and a whore for dinner.rubber.sex wrote:
Americans are not hated in Europe, there just laughed at for completly stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
Europe = Greasy, chubby, smelly, stupid, hairy, prostitute soliciting alcoholics who are angry because they eat shitty food and love dicks in their ass.
See how inaccurate that was? I am, of course, just using your logic so please do not be offended.
Malloy must go
yepMekstizzle wrote:
America sucks
lolPug wrote:
"very proud" "arrogant" "overconfident in things such as the Iraq war". This is the point of the article. Is this actually an American trait or a trait you have crowned us with? Perhaps we are ignorant of Switzerland because we don't really care about Switzerland. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease theory"...aka it ain't broken so we ain't payin' attention to it.
Perhaps we don't care about Swizerland because we have a limitation of knowledge....for instance, I know more about Canada from living there than Oklahoma or Georgia. Perhaps we have "too much" to know and Switzerland doesn't fit in our priorities.
As far as your justice system comment...to Americans, the UK justice system is screwed up. And unfortunately everyone has "the right" to sue if they want. Sure, there's consequences, but doesn't prevent someone from gambling. Secondly, in the words of the guy in Gladiator - "Are you not entertained?" News IS entertainment. If you haven't figured that out yet....
As far as "stupid" goes...sorry, but you made the exact point the guy was making...prejudice and discrimination. As far as "ignorance outside the US"...lets be honest here...how much do WE HAVE to know about your country to make you feel we aren't ignorant? Do you think if you provided a list and we learned it would change your mind? Doubtful...and as the article states...WHY IS THAT?
I never said I agreed with the stupid part. I know tons of Americans, and have a high opinion of them. Switzerland really hates tourists anyways
This is what the media shows us in Europe. That was my point. I guess you haven't realized that I don't agree with the image - I have lived in the United States before, and I don't think every American is an arrogant idiot. I think that the media is to blame for the image of the USA.
-konfusion
I just have a problem with your corrupt leaders, nothing wrong with most of the people. You get the idiots, we get the idiots.
Pug, I for one, along with probably very many, particularly deplore the pasts of Spain, France, Belgium and unsurprisingly the UK. I don't think we turn a blind eye to 'our own' past crimes.Pug wrote:
The question raised in the article has to do with the question of why Europe ignores it's own past and treats Americans like their retarded little brother. In other words, why is America uncivilized when the same behavior was utilized by Europeans in the past...or better yet...in recent times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … _in_Europe
Not the point. Most of us share the view that you should not interfere in the internal politics of another country. By intervening you are in fact fighting the will of many (often the majority) of the citizens of the nation you intervene in. It would hardly be deemed fair, just or right for you to intervene.Pug wrote:
- looking at Vietnam now...was it a failure? South Korea?
PureFodder deals with this.assisting in the making and breaking of regimes in central and south America?
Moron.rubber.sex wrote:
Americans are not hated in Europe, there just laughed at for completly stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan
Ah now ATG, fair play to the guy ...he made the effort of going out and meeting 99% of Americans.ATG wrote:
Moron.rubber.sex wrote:
Americans are not hated in Europe, there just laughed at for completly stupid and ignorant of the rest of the world, which unfortunatly for Americans 99% of them are.
I wouldnt even visit america if i based what it would be like off the news, id rather go to Pakistan