BF2S Forums Israel wants a nucealr Iran?

Isreal would not want nukes in the middle east, because they are the only country there WITH nukes, it would destabalize their power and start huge tensions between the jewish state and neighboring country's plus Iran

Isreal would not want nukes in the middle east, because they are the only country there WITH nukes, it would destabalize their power and start huge tensions between the jewish state and neighboring country's plus Iran

Israel does want Iran to have nukes, then they have an excuse to nuke them.
Better still get the US to do their dirty work - again.

It makes no real difference if Iran has them or not - MAD will see to that.

Israeli intelligence asserts Iran could have a program by late 2009.  So does the 2007 NIE.

• We judge with moderate confidence that the earliest possible date Iran would be technically capable of producing enough HEU for a weapon is late 2009, but that this is very unlikely.
• We judge with high confidence that the halt lasted at least several years. (Because of intelligence gaps discussed elsewhere in this Estimate, however, DOE and the NIC assess with only moderate confidence that the halt to those activities represents a halt to Iran's entire nuclear weapons program.)
• We assess with moderate confidence Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons program as of mid-2007, but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons.

Russia (a nuclear power, therefore having an interest in any country's nuclear weapon aspirations) believes the international community is in control of Iran's nuclear program: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra … osti01.htm

UN nuclear watchdog is fully controlling Iran's controversial nuclear program, a Russian deputy foreign minister said Saturday.

Under an agreement reached between Iran and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in late August, Tehran committed itself to answering all of the agency's questions on its nuclear program.

"IAEA controls all nuclear activities in Iran," Sergei Kislyak said. "Iran will never obtain high enriched uranium..., while IAEA is there."

IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei said in a report last month that Iran had been truthful, in general, about key aspects of its "nuclear dossier," but noted that Tehran was continuing to work on uranium enrichment, despite persistent international demands to fold the program.

That somewhat echoes the 2007 NIE-

• Tehran’s decision to halt its nuclear weapons program suggests it is less determined to develop nuclear weapons than we have been judging since 2005. Our assessment that the program probably was halted primarily in response to international pressure suggests Iran may be more vulnerable to influence on the issue than we judged previously.

Ahmadinejad's supposed call to destroy Israel as interpreted by various people/factions is erroneous.  Taken in context, two instances touted by his detractors in regards to speeches advocating the destruction of Israel: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/weeki … ref=slogin

Let’s take a step back. We had a hostile regime in this country (Iran) which was undemocratic, armed to the teeth and, with SAVAK, its security apparatus of SAVAK [the intelligence bureau of the Shah of Iran’s government] watched everyone. An environment of terror existed.

Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine.

The fact that he (Ahmadinejad) refers to the "regime" in his country and then the "regime" occupying Jerusalem (Qods) should be evidence enough that he (in reiterating what the reigning Ayatollah said) is not talking about the destruction of Israel, but a "regime change" as in a change of current leadership in Israel.

Another quote, of his so-called plea to wipe Israel off the map (so often stated on these forums as evidence of Ahmadinejad's evil intentions), as interpreted by someone who speaks farsi: http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/r … e-century/

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say?  To quote his exact words in farsi:
"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e.  It is the word "regime", pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end.  Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime.  This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map.  Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"?  The answer is: nothing.  That's because the word "map" was never used.  The Persian word for map, "nagsheh", is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech.  Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said.  Yet we are led to believe Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", despite never having uttered the words "map", "wipe out" or even "Israel".

It takes effort and critical thinking to sort through all the rhetoric on both sides.  In my opinion, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric regarding Israel and the U.S. is very much like Bush's rhetoric regarding "the axis of evil" - words used to invoke particular emotions and sentiment, not much more.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-12-16 21:38:16)

Skorpy-chan wrote:

Israel knows about this. They survive precisely because they may or may not have nukes and don't tell anyone either way.

the fact that they have nukes is not a mystery.  the israeli government just doesnt acknowledge.  all the people (mostly france)who helped build israel's nuclear arsenal are still around.

FEOS wrote:

When did Israel say they would wipe Iran off the face of the earth?

Did I miss it?

When did Iran say they would wipe Isreal off the face of the earth?

Did i miss it?

m3thod wrote:

FEOS wrote:

When did Israel say they would wipe Iran off the face of the earth?

Did I miss it?

When did Iran say they would wipe Isreal off the face of the earth?

Did i miss it?

Fair enough. Since I don't speak Farsi, I was going with the translations that were being offered. It does appear, however, that Iran is at least partially to blame for the "mistranslation".

However, typing in "iran israel exist" in Google enabled me to find plenty of instances that don't necessarily center around that single phrase in that single speech. Here are some samples.

Ahmadinejad said (source):

The establishment of the State of Israel was an offensive move. The Islamic nation will not let its historic enemy live in its midst.

Ahmadinejad's "non-threatening" remarks on Israel (source):

"There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world."
"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury, (while) any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world."
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,"

So I guess Iran has never threatened Israel and everything's hunky-dory, right?

Strangely enough, I didn't see any returns on Google where Israel was saying the same things about Iran. Curious...

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, I think Israel wants Iran to pursue nukes, so that an attack could be justified.  That's a bit different from Iran actually having them.

Probably.

Could be that Israel would rather see a cold war type scenario develop between themselves and the Arab league, which may be preferable to just sitting back and hoping the Arabs and Iranians don't ever attack them, because as things stand, troop and equipment wise, Israel would very likely lose a conventional war against them.

Not necessarily, they didn't last time when they were fighting a bunch of Arab countries.

Bertster7 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Probably.

Could be that Israel would rather see a cold war type scenario develop between themselves and the Arab league, which may be preferable to just sitting back and hoping the Arabs and Iranians don't ever attack them, because as things stand, troop and equipment wise, Israel would very likely lose a conventional war against them.

Not necessarily, they didn't last time when they were fighting a bunch of Arab countries.

The Arabs are now FAR better equipped than they were. The Saudi army alone is larger and better equipped than Israel's.

Last time the Israelis won by launching a first strike against Egypt's airforce and succeeded in destroying most of it before it was airborne. Now the Saudis are the biggest threat and Israel are far less well placed to strike at Saudi Arabia.

Israel have pulled of some impressive military performances, although recently they've looked rather ineffective, so maybe they could pull through somehow - but the odds would certainly be massively stacked against them.

I dunno about the Saudi's going to war with them, but I still think they could hold they're own, they do have the worlds most experienced airforce in terms of modern usage.

Bertster7 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

The Arabs are now FAR better equipped than they were. The Saudi army alone is larger and better equipped than Israel's.

Last time the Israelis won by launching a first strike against Egypt's airforce and succeeded in destroying most of it before it was airborne. Now the Saudis are the biggest threat and Israel are far less well placed to strike at Saudi Arabia.

Israel have pulled of some impressive military performances, although recently they've looked rather ineffective, so maybe they could pull through somehow - but the odds would certainly be massively stacked against them.

I dunno about the Saudi's going to war with them, but I still think they could hold they're own, they do have the worlds most experienced airforce in terms of modern usage.

The Saudis are the powerhouse of the Arab league. If there were to be a war, they'd be involved. Or, to put it another way, there would be no war without there involvement.

They aren't the only Arab army that vastly outnumbers the Israelis either. I just can't see them having a realistic chance. Read up about it. Look at the troop numbers and kit for the many countries Israel would be up against.

Tru but then again, troop numbers aren't everything these days.

Bertster7 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

The Saudis are the powerhouse of the Arab league. If there were to be a war, they'd be involved. Or, to put it another way, there would be no war without there involvement.

They aren't the only Arab army that vastly outnumbers the Israelis either. I just can't see them having a realistic chance. Read up about it. Look at the troop numbers and kit for the many countries Israel would be up against.

Tru but then again, troop numbers aren't everything these days.

No, but greater troop numbers, superior kit and having allies surrounding your adversary are all very big plus points.

Again tru, but Israel would likely have US help. Lol its the agreement and add conversation

Bertster7 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

No, but greater troop numbers, superior kit and having allies surrounding your adversary are all very big plus points.

Again tru, but Israel would likely have US help. Lol its the agreement and add conversation

Well, that's what it would all hinge on. Obviously nothing is going to happen in the current political climate, but it would not take that much of a shift for it to be at least a possibility.

The US has not gotten involved in any previous Israeli military endeavours anyway (though Britain has (Suez)).

Ah yeah, watched something on that not that long ago, they got the Israelis involved to declare war on Egypt or something.

Not only that, but the U.S. would surely have a problem with their major ally in the region (Israel) and their major economic benefactor in the region (Saudi Arabia) duking it out in a conventional war, regardless of the potential economic windfall or other geopolitical benefits of such a war.

I've never understood why Israel is counted as a US ally.
What exactly does Israel do for the US?