Mitch
16 more years
+877|6961|South Florida
Im speechless.

The Article wrote:

Inestimable Privilege. In an extraordinary decision, Judge Camarata denied the Burkes' right to the child because of their lack of belief in a Supreme Being. Despite the Burkes' "high moral and ethical standards," he said, the New Jersey state constitution declares that "no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience." Despite Eleanor Katherine's tender years, he continued, "the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being."
Theres much more:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 55,00.html

Fuck.You.Religion.
15 more years! 15 more years!
rh27
Not really a Brit
+51|7032|England
That's exactly the opposite of what should be ruled.

If anything, religious prospective parents who can't prove they'll bring up their child without imposing religion on that child should not be allowed to have children.

The child should have all rights to choose their own religion, not have it imposed on them by parents.

For that reason, Atheists make the best parents in that respect.

Last edited by rh27 (2008-01-03 12:11:19)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7018|SE London

Mitch wrote:

Im speechless.

The Article wrote:

Inestimable Privilege. In an extraordinary decision, Judge Camarata denied the Burkes' right to the child because of their lack of belief in a Supreme Being. Despite the Burkes' "high moral and ethical standards," he said, the New Jersey state constitution declares that "no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience." Despite Eleanor Katherine's tender years, he continued, "the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being."
Theres much more:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 55,00.html

Fuck.You.Religion.
WTF?!?

Surely this decision will be overturned almost immediately? It sounds completely illegal to me - but that's based on European laws that I am more familiar with.

In any case, how did a complete retard, as this man obviously is, get to be a judge?

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-01-03 12:15:26)

chittydog
less busy
+586|7271|Kubra, Damn it!

Wow. I'd expect something like this to happen in Texas or Mississippi, but not Jersey.
ig
This topic seems to have no actual posts
+1,199|6958
double you tee eff
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6961|South Florida

rh27 wrote:

That's exactly the opposite of what should be ruled.

If anything, religious prospective parents who can't prove they'll bring up their child without imposing religion on that child should not be allowed to have children.

The child should have all rights to choose their own religion, not have it imposed on them by parents.

For that reason, Atheists make the best parents in that respect.
Exactly.
It just pisses me off sooo much because if i was sitting before that judge ide call him a fucking rat and tell him that he's basing his decision on his own personal beliefs and if he was an atheist he would make a different judgement, and thats not how the US government runs things.
15 more years! 15 more years!
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7068|949

From reading the article and nothing more, it seems like a misinterpretation of a seemingly arcane New Jersey law.

What amazes me more than anything else is the idea that the existence and future of a child can be wantonly decided by the courts as if she (the kid) is a piece of property.
avman633
Member
+116|6800

Mitch wrote:

Im speechless.

The Article wrote:

Inestimable Privilege. In an extraordinary decision, Judge Camarata denied the Burkes' right to the child because of their lack of belief in a Supreme Being. Despite the Burkes' "high moral and ethical standards," he said, the New Jersey state constitution declares that "no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience." Despite Eleanor Katherine's tender years, he continued, "the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being."
Theres much more:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 55,00.html

Fuck.You.Religion.
Wait wait wait
"the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being"

don't all parents impose their beliefs on their kids?
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7121|United States of America
Two weeks ago, aided by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Burkes appealed directly to the New Jersey Supreme Court, which agreed to hear the case.
Well there's an easy decision for the Court.

I didn't know that atheists had time to be parents, with all that time they spend with Satan and the liberals. jk <3
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6888|Cambridge, UK

DesertFox- wrote:

Two weeks ago, aided by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Burkes appealed directly to the New Jersey Supreme Court, which agreed to hear the case.
Well there's an easy decision for the Court.

I didn't know that atheists had time to be parents, with all that time they spend with Satan and the liberals. jk <3
It's because Satan likes us to fornicate like mad - sometimes with liberals

Edit: Oh and as for the original post..... Ahhhhhhhhh! Madness! Not only should judgements like this be overturned but the judge should then be tried in a court of peers to see if hes fit to continue as a judge.

Last edited by KylieTastic (2008-01-03 12:32:51)

Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6741|Florida
No matter how you think of this its just not right at all. Parents shouldnt force any beliefs on their children, they should tell them what they believe in and let them choose for themselves later in life. Just because theyre athiests doesnt mean they shouldnt be parents. That is some fucked up bullshit, religion has nothing to do with how fucked that is.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6927|Northern California

Mitch wrote:

Fuck.You.Religion.
No Mitch. F*$% You.  Religion has nothing to do with this.  ..unless of course you can show me a religion that says atheists can't have or adopt children, or if it forces states to regulate things as the article indicates.

And more importantly, all you yahoos on this forum bashing religion like you know what you're talking about, you obviously have NO clue based on how you're somehow blaming "religion" or actual taught doctrines of the mainstream faiths of the world for what someone says or does.  And until you can show me teachings, scriptures, or declared doctrines that advocate the things you claim, you are as ass backwards as the OP's assumption based on the article quoted.
Enzzenmachine
Member
+20|6782

rh27 wrote:

That's exactly the opposite of what should be ruled.

If anything, religious prospective parents who can't prove they'll bring up their child without imposing religion on that child should not be allowed to have children.

The child should have all rights to choose their own religion, not have it imposed on them by parents.

For that reason, Atheists make the best parents in that respect.
you're totally right.


This stuff is laughable

Edit: Ironchef

I'm not a fan of religion for many reasons, especially christianity (whatever) and islam. I have my reasons like anyone else has.

Last edited by Enzzenmachine (2008-01-03 12:43:52)

Christbane
Member
+51|6671
I am agnostic. if anything.    I didnt push that on my daughter, I let her decide what path she wanted to take (as long as it was not destructive)  she went to sunday school and church groups etc.  and decided on her own that it was not for her.  I think it is seriously fucked up that the judge based his decision on his beliefes. I could see if they were evil people.  but atheists?
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6888|Cambridge, UK

Christbane wrote:

...I could see if they were evil people.  but atheists?
That's the trouble there are too many (and several in places of authority in the US) that believe that Atheists=Evil

and unfortunately most don't follow IRONCHEF's views that there views need to be valid with teachings, scriptures etc.... too often religious teachings get twisted and forgotten following personal goals and ideals

Last edited by KylieTastic (2008-01-03 12:43:58)

Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6958

IRONCHEF wrote:

Mitch wrote:

Fuck.You.Religion.
No Mitch. F*$% You.  Religion has nothing to do with this.  ..unless of course you can show me a religion that says atheists can't have or adopt children, or if it forces states to regulate things as the article indicates.

And more importantly, all you yahoos on this forum bashing religion like you know what you're talking about, you obviously have NO clue based on how you're somehow blaming "religion" or actual taught doctrines of the mainstream faiths of the world for what someone says or does.  And until you can show me teachings, scriptures, or declared doctrines that advocate the things you claim, you are as ass backwards as the OP's assumption based on the article quoted.
Unfortunately, Ironchef, we live in a world with two different forms of religion. You stand and defend a more enlightened, more open form of religion. While it still has its problems, religion has more or less left behind its witch burning, gay bashing, hell damning past.

Unfortunately, we are still having to deal with the past religion that has weaved itself into both our culture as well as our government. Religion is a powerful means of good, but it has also been an undeniable cause of some of the most atrocious acts in human history. We all recognize that this law is ridiculously and painfully stupid, yet it is still there. For people who don't really embrace religion to begin with, its hard to see a difference in the two.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6566|North Tonawanda, NY
This ruling ought to be overturned.  I sincerely hope that the New Jersey State Supreme Court has more sense than that hack of a judge who made this decision.
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|7001|Area 51
And once again religion fails
Christbane
Member
+51|6671
And more importantly, all you yahoos on this forum bashing religion like you know what you're talking about, you obviously have NO clue based on how you're somehow blaming "religion" or actual taught doctrines of the mainstream faiths of the world for what someone says or does.  And until you can show me teachings, scriptures, or declared doctrines that advocate the things you claim, you are as ass backwards as the OP's assumption based on the article quoted.


are you kidding me???  ass backwards to me is someone who lives there life by bible stories from a couple thousand years ago.  that would be like using the maintenence guide for a 57 chev on a 2008 vette.  the world has changed.  nothing is remotely the same.  maybe it's time for a new son of god to come and set us straight  <eye roll>
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6927|Northern California

Protecus wrote:

Unfortunately, Ironchef, we live in a world with two different forms of religion. You stand and defend a more enlightened, more open form of religion. While it still has its problems, religion has more or less left behind its witch burning, gay bashing, hell damning past.

Unfortunately, we are still having to deal with the past religion that has weaved itself into both our culture as well as our government. Religion is a powerful means of good, but it has also been an undeniable cause of some of the most atrocious acts in human history. We all recognize that this law is ridiculously and painfully stupid, yet it is still there. For people who don't really embrace religion to begin with, its hard to see a difference in the two.
I'd agree if it were the actual religions declaring such "behaviors" as doctrines, but they're not (for the most part).  The behaviors of adherents of religion are not "the religion" as people suggest.  Religion is a set of principles, doctrines, and practices as a means to an end.  Professional decision making that speaks on behalf of government saying such unfounded things as this judge is saying has NO semblance of religion.  It does however speak of first amendment rights in a backwards way..backwards because yes, a parent DOES have the right and privilege of teaching their children whatever they want.

Anyway, hopefully this stupid judge will get yanked for her misconduct and reprimanded or disbarred or something if this isn't overturned.  I think this situation is also typical of most US adoption procedures keeping good parents from kids.  It's a barbaric business.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6936|so randum
inb4david.p
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6927|Northern California

Christbane wrote:

are you kidding me???  ass backwards to me is someone who lives there life by bible stories from a couple thousand years ago.  that would be like using the maintenence guide for a 57 chev on a 2008 vette.  the world has changed.  nothing is remotely the same.  maybe it's time for a new son of god to come and set us straight  <eye roll>
SO I'm ass-backwards because I love my neighbor, because I give money EVERY month to feed and clothe the poor, and because I don't steal, lie, and cheat?  Oh wait, those are new rules from the old "21st Century Ethical Values Handbook."

And no, your analogy is a big fail.  The bible is a compilation of writings that span several thousand years, writings by many different people who accounted for things that happened in their times, they wrote what they had received in revelation and teachings, and there's plenty of historical writing in there too.  And on a non-spiritual note, it's completely THE same as todays conditions among individuals, communities, nations and more.  THe same exact conditions among man now like trust, belief, tragedy, success, joy, misery, temptation, wisdom, betrayal; are all dealt with the same as when they were written thousands of years ago.  The only difference that you see is there's iPods now and no staffs and loin cloths.

Oh yeah, have you read the bible before?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7057|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

inb4david.p
QFT

---

Really though, it's dumb that he says that the child shouldn't have such beliefs brought onto him. It's also messed up to force a child into believing something. Look at the shit kids beleive in anyway, the tooth fairy/santa clause/weapons of mass destruction in iraqistan, does it do them any good? Hell naw

Last edited by Mek-Izzle (2008-01-03 13:09:33)

SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6566|North Tonawanda, NY

IRONCHEF wrote:

I'd agree if it were the actual religions declaring such "behaviors" as doctrines, but they're not (for the most part).  The behaviors of adherents of religion are not "the religion" as people suggest.  Religion is a set of principles, doctrines, and practices as a means to an end.  Professional decision making that speaks on behalf of government saying such unfounded things as this judge is saying has NO semblance of religion.  It does however speak of first amendment rights in a backwards way..backwards because yes, a parent DOES have the right and privilege of teaching their children whatever they want.

Anyway, hopefully this stupid judge will get yanked for her misconduct and reprimanded or disbarred or something if this isn't overturned.  I think this situation is also typical of most US adoption procedures keeping good parents from kids.  It's a barbaric business.
IRONCHEF really is correct on this.  Religion itself is not to blame, but rather this ignorant judge and his 'interpretation' of the law.

You'd think that the state of New Jersey would be happy to give a domestic child a good home.  I guess this is another reason why people adopt from overseas.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6927|Northern California
DAMN YOU!  Nobody agrees with me about my psycho religious thoughts and utterances!!  Booo!


Mek-Izzle wrote:

It's also messed up to force a child into believing something. Look at the shit kids beleive in anyway, the tooth fairy/santa clause/weapons of mass destruction in iraqistan, does it do them any good? Hell naw
NOt sure if you have kids or not, but I do and I've often thought about this..about my brainwashing, my influence, my teachings, my beliefs -> all "forced" on my kids through no choice of their own (not that they'd know, right?).  And the truth of it is that each parent does actually "brainwash" their kids.  It's not a bad thing.  The bad is in what you're actually teaching.

If I sustain their belief in Santa Clause (whether they saw Polar Express or because I taught them to believe in Santa Clause) until they learn for themselves the truth when they're about 7 or 8, then I can choose to continue to brainwash them and be well in the "bad" aspect of "brainwashing" or I can say "Yes dear, you're right.  I hope you understand that I supported the idea of Santa Clause when you were younger to make part of Christmas a little more fun and a little more magical."  <- that would be the positive way, right?

SO yes, I am bringing my children to church (illegal to leave them home) so they can learn about Jesus, Heavenly Father, prophets, apostles, singing songs that teach them to be nice, to share, to love and honor their parents, etc.  And I have no doubt that's 100% brainwashing.  But as they get older, and this is the case for any kids (born of atheists, gays, aliens, or whatever)...they WILL unlearn ALL that you taught them as they discover for themselves what is or isn't what others believe in.  So..yeah.  Judge needs to visit BF2s to learn the truth.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-01-03 13:21:18)

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