BF2S Forums Breaking news - Hell freezes over, US urge Israeli occupation to end.

rawls2 wrote:

Would an Israeli governemnt, let alone the people, be able to justify continued military actions against the Palestinians if the violence ends and fighters become builders. My vision would be that the Palestinians, thru action, show Israel and the world they are serious about co-existing. A change of heart, if you will, towards the Pali's would ensue and the citizens of Israel would force thier government to help the Pali's continue the path they have started for themselves.

Nail/head. Armed groups that reject a two-state solution are the major obstacle to peace: Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah. I don't think the Palestinian leadership has much control over the armed groups, but if these groups accepted a two-state solution or just disappeared, Israel would have no justification for arrests, roadblocks or even the separation wall, and thousands of Palestinians would find work in Israel.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

san4 wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

Would an Israeli governemnt, let alone the people, be able to justify continued military actions against the Palestinians if the violence ends and fighters become builders. My vision would be that the Palestinians, thru action, show Israel and the world they are serious about co-existing. A change of heart, if you will, towards the Pali's would ensue and the citizens of Israel would force thier government to help the Pali's continue the path they have started for themselves.

Nail/head. Armed groups that reject a two-state solution are the major obstacle to peace: Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah. I don't think the Palestinian leadership has much control over the armed groups, but if these groups accepted a two-state solution or just disappeared, Israel would have no justification for arrests, roadblocks or even the separation wall, and thousands of Palestinians would find work in Israel.

They aren't going to disappear, that's the point.  All three of those factions will continue regardless of a two-state solution.  Israel has no justification for much of what they do, and they still do it.  Where is the justification in creating settlements in territory Israel has supposedly already 'ceded'?  If Israel actually gave back the occupied territories, then those three factions would have no justification for doing things against Israel. 

You see how it is something that both sides must work on?

First, not only would those groups continue their activities if a two-state solution happened, they would justify their activities in exactly the same way. They say they want to destroy the Israeli state and a two-state solution would not remove that 'justification'. But I agree that there might be less sympathy for them among the Palestinians and around the world.

Second, those groups could disappear if their funding disappears. They get a lot of their money from Iran.

Third, right or wrong, Israel won't make major changes in its policies or practices until it believes it can do so without compromising its security. I agree, building settlements is idiotic and it makes Israel less secure. The religious right is hugely powerful and it blocks the wishes of lots of Israelis who want to get rid of the settlements. But Israel justifies arrests, assassinations, road blocks and the separation wall as security measures. I don't like those measures, but it is not unreasonable to believe that, if they are dropped, the armed groups will resume killing Israelis like they did before the separation wall was built. No Israeli government will agree to let that happen and it would be hard to blame them. The groups have to disappear or be controlled before Israel will leave the occupied territories.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

san4 wrote:

First, not only would those groups continue their activities if a two-state solution happened, they would justify their activities in exactly the same way. They say they want to destroy the Israeli state and a two-state solution would not remove that 'justification'. But I agree that there might be less sympathy for them among the Palestinians and around the world.

Second, those groups could disappear if their funding disappears. They get a lot of their money from Iran.

Third, right or wrong, Israel won't make major changes in its policies or practices until it believes it can do so without compromising its security. I agree, building settlements is idiotic and it makes Israel less secure. The religious right is hugely powerful and it blocks the wishes of lots of Israelis who want to get rid of the settlements. But Israel justifies arrests, assassinations, road blocks and the separation wall as security measures. I don't like those measures, but it is not unreasonable to believe that, if they are dropped, the armed groups will resume killing Israelis like they did before the separation wall was built. No Israeli government will agree to let that happen and it would be hard to blame them. The groups have to disappear or be controlled before Israel will leave the occupied territories.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I think you overestimate the impact of an Israeli withdrawal on the anti-Israel militant groups.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

So the Palestinian civilian population must suffer because the Israeli civilian population is perceived as threatened?  Those factions (militant pseudo-political Muslim Hez'bollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa) should bear the responsibility, not everyday Palestinians.  Israeli citizens shouldn't be held responsible for IDF moves either, I agree.

Absolutely right. Since Israel was founded, the most consistent refusals to accept a two-state solution have come from the Palestinians' so-called friends--Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and now Iran--not the Palestinians themselves. The Palestinians suffer and the primary responsibility lies with the militant groups, the Arab countries and Iran.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Those groups are funded for a variety of reasons by numerous donors.  Palestine/Israel is but one battleground in their cause.  Simply put, you can't fight terrorist/guerrilla groups with inordinate force.  The formation of a Palestinian state, removal of illegal Jewish settlements, ceding of the occupied territories and the return of Jerusalem to an international mandate would do wonders to cripple the popular support in Palestine of those extremist factions.

I agree that any attempt to defeat terrorist groups by force is doomed to fail. But Israeli withdrawal wouldn't make the groups go away either. The problem is that, as you point out, the militant groups are international organizations (especially Hezbollah). Their funding would continue regardless of Palestinian support, and there would still be enough recruits among the Palestinians and other Arabs to carry out attacks. Israel's evacuation of settlements in Gaza--an extraordinary political and practical undertaking--had no positive impact on the behavior of the militant groups. It didn't even undermine their popular support. Hamas has continued its official refusal to accept anything less than the complete destruction of Israel and, even though its refusal has caused a catastrophic cutoff in European aid to Gaza, Hamas is still very popular there. The militant groups attacking Israel are a regional problem and it is a mistake to believe that Israeli concessions can influence their behavior. The groups' behavior is influenced more by their "numerous donors" than by Israel. We have to look to those patrons for a solution.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

As long as both extremes (Zionist/expansionists in Israel and extremist/guerrillas in Palestine) exist and are given perceived legitimacy and resources to continue, there will be no solution.  Palestinians give popular support to those groups in the region, which could be removed with a real compromise.  The U.S. gives explicit and implicit backing to the motives of the Israeli factions - if the U.S. were to remove the backing through compromise, a two-state solution could flourish.

I agree that there will be no solution as long as the extremists on both sides exist and have support and legitimacy. But, as I said above, even a real compromise won't affect the anti-Israel militant groups. There were terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians before Israel occupied the territories, and, unless Iran and others stop funding these groups, there will be attacks on Israeli civilians after it withdraws. A decrease in Palestinian popular support won't change that, and withdrawal might not even decrease support for attacks at all.