I would have like to receive a bible when i was in school, even though it's violating church and state separation doctrine.
"In God we trust"- A US Dollar Bill
Last edited by rawls2 (2008-01-11 12:14:55)
Absent instruction, proselytizing or attempts at indoctrination - it actually is - what it is - a book.IRONCHEF wrote:
I would have like to receive a bible when i was in school, even though it's violating church and state separation doctrine.
An important book by anyone's standard (or rather to Western Civilization). Where did the literary expression "apple of my eye" come from? The Bible of course... so IMO it doesn't matter if you do; or don't; believe - it is a very important work of literature.
They should hand that book (the Bible) out along with others (like):
Huck. Finn
Paradise Lost
Moby Dick
Catcher in Rye
Hamlet
The Odyssey
... and so forth, etc, etc, etc.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-11 13:02:26)
The Gideons were allowed to hand out their Bibles, the school district is not doing it. And as pointed out above, the district allows secular as well as religious groups to distribute information, hence no establishment. The fact that other religious or non-religious groups have not handed out their literature doesn't mean the Gideons should be restricted.OP wrote:
... allowed representatives of Gideons International to give away Bibles in fifth-grade classroom ...
Mathew Staver, president of Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based law group that represented the school district, said he would appeal. ''I think the current policy creates an open forum that allows secular as well as religious persons or groups to access the forum to distribute information,'' Staver said. ''The court has clearly misread the First Amendment and the cases regarding free speech.''
Gideons International, based in Nashville, Tenn., distributes Bibles in more than 80 languages and 180 countries, according to its Web site. A spokesman did not return a phone call seeking comment.
Did anyone else think "duh" with this ruling?Drakef wrote:
ST. LOUIS (AP) -- A rural school district's long-standing practice of allowing the distribution of Bibles to grade school students is unconstitutional, a federal judge has ruled.
Red hardback ones? Yeah we got them, gave them to the Muslims as well.M.O.A.B wrote:
I remember them handing out bibles once, friggin lethal in the wrong hands
I laughed.
It's funny how people always complain about being solicited by followers of other religions, but have no problem with people doing the same within their own religion.
I don't mind people respectfully teaching about their religion, but poaching kids in elementary school is kinda low.
You can make any impressionable kid believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, but it's pretty benign and they're eventually disillusioned. Abusing this gullibility to impress religious views and agenda is down to the morality of the parent, but to allow complete strangers to do the same is just absolutely tasteless.
I don't mind people respectfully teaching about their religion, but poaching kids in elementary school is kinda low.
You can make any impressionable kid believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, but it's pretty benign and they're eventually disillusioned. Abusing this gullibility to impress religious views and agenda is down to the morality of the parent, but to allow complete strangers to do the same is just absolutely tasteless.
Huh, I've never heard any religious person do that. Other citizens having beliefs different of mine doesn't offend me in the least. If Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, etc etc want to hand out holy books they have purchased with their own money in my child's school it wouldn't bother me at all. They aren't "teaching" their religion, only handing out books.
What he said...Stingray24 wrote:
Huh, I've never heard any religious person do that. Other citizens having beliefs different of mine doesn't offend me in the least. If Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, etc etc want to hand out holy books they have purchased with their own money in my child's school it wouldn't bother me at all. They aren't "teaching" their religion, only handing out books.
That phrase did not became the National Motto until 1956, during the Red Scare and Sen. McCarthy's reign of terror. It was enacted to combat "those god-less Commies."rawls2 wrote:
"In God we trust"- A US Dollar Bill
An interesting quote from President Theodore Roosevelt
As far as the OP is concerned, schools do not require people to check their religion at the door, merely keep it to yourself. There is a time and a place for religion, and a school is not it.My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege ... it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements
Honestly, there are over 9 Million square Kilometers of area in the US. Do you really feel the need to bitch and moan over not being able to distribute bibles in one fraction of a fraction of that area?
There are by far more churches than schools in this country. If you wish to learn religion, go there.
When I was about 13-14 I used to walk home from school. There used to be these weird fellows who would hand out an orange copy of the New Testament. I must have had about 20 of them stacked up in my room at one time. Thinking back, I don't think I ever opened one, and I guess I considered myself a Catholic at that point.Stingray24 wrote:
Huh, I've never heard any religious person do that. Other citizens having beliefs different of mine doesn't offend me in the least. If Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, etc etc want to hand out holy books they have purchased with their own money in my child's school it wouldn't bother me at all. They aren't "teaching" their religion, only handing out books.
Exactly. The bible can (and should) be studied. And it ought to be available in the school library upon request, where all the rest of those books are.topal63 wrote:
Absent instruction, proselytizing or attempts at indoctrination - it actually is - what it is - a book.IRONCHEF wrote:
I would have like to receive a bible when i was in school, even though it's violating church and state separation doctrine.
An important book by anyone's standard (or rather to Western Civilization). Where did the literary expression "apple of my eye" come from? The Bible of course... so IMO it doesn't matter if you do; or don't; believe - it is a very important work of literature.
They should hand that book (the Bible) out along with others (like):
Huck. Finn
Paradise Lost
Moby Dick
Catcher in Rye
Hamlet
The Odyssey
... and so forth, etc, etc, etc.
It was actually put on currency during the 1900's.Protecus wrote:
That phrase did not became the National Motto until 1956, during the Red Scare and Sen. McCarthy's reign of terror. It was enacted to combat "those god-less Commies."rawls2 wrote:
"In God we trust"- A US Dollar Bill
Yes, but in 1956 it became a national motto. Two different things.DoctaStrangelove wrote:
It was actually put on currency during the 1900's.Protecus wrote:
That phrase did not became the National Motto until 1956, during the Red Scare and Sen. McCarthy's reign of terror. It was enacted to combat "those god-less Commies."rawls2 wrote:
"In God we trust"- A US Dollar Bill
Your point is mute. The point wasn't when it became a motto but when it was established.SenorToenails wrote:
Yes, but in 1956 it became a national motto. Two different things.DoctaStrangelove wrote:
It was actually put on currency during the 1900's.Protecus wrote:
That phrase did not became the National Motto until 1956, during the Red Scare and Sen. McCarthy's reign of terror. It was enacted to combat "those god-less Commies."
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-she … trust.html
Last edited by rawls2 (2008-01-11 15:55:32)
If they had been preaching along with handing out the Bibles, that would be one thing; but just handing out the Bibles isn't unconstitutional. With out the preaching, the Bible is in fact a book, and one that should be studied if for nothing else than for the effect that it has had on Western society, and the many literary works that have either been influenced by it or make reference to it.
As for schools suppressing religion, it seems to be more of a case of individuals, rather than the schools and school districts as a whole. Back in high school, I used to wear a cross on a chain until one of the school's AP's told me to either remove it or be suspended. This is the same school where I spent half of my senior year studying the bible because of it's relationship to major events in Europe's history as well as it's literary influences.
As for schools suppressing religion, it seems to be more of a case of individuals, rather than the schools and school districts as a whole. Back in high school, I used to wear a cross on a chain until one of the school's AP's told me to either remove it or be suspended. This is the same school where I spent half of my senior year studying the bible because of it's relationship to major events in Europe's history as well as it's literary influences.
When this book is treated differently than other texts, then it becomes a problem. It's not like the school was handing out copies of "The Count of Monte Cristo" or "War and Peace" upon request.mcgid1 wrote:
If they had been preaching along with handing out the Bibles, that would be one thing; but just handing out the Bibles isn't unconstitutional. With out the preaching, the Bible is in fact a book, and one that should be studied if for nothing else than for the effect that it has had on Western society, and the many literary works that have either been influenced by it or make reference to it.
As for schools suppressing religion, it seems to be more of a case of individuals, rather than the schools and school districts as a whole. Back in high school, I used to wear a cross on a chain until one of the school's AP's told me to either remove it or be suspended. This is the same school where I spent half of my senior year studying the bible because of it's relationship to major events in Europe's history as well as it's literary influences.
What's wrong with "The Count of Monte Cristo" and "War and Peace"?
rawls2 wrote:
Your point is mute. The point wasn't when it became a motto but when it was established.SenorToenails wrote:
Yes, but in 1956 it became a national motto. Two different things.DoctaStrangelove wrote:
It was actually put on currency during the 1900's.
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-she … trust.html
Considering that Roosevelt said that in 1907 (well before his death in 1919), it is clear that the phrase was on currency long before 1956. That was clear from Protectus's post. Your point is moot.Protecus wrote:
An interesting quote from President Theodore RooseveltMy own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege ... it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements
Not a thing. And that is my point.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
What's wrong with "The Count of Monte Cristo" and "War and Peace"?
It combats the idea that the bible ought to be handed out because, after all, it is an important book. When the school offers copies of only the bible, they are treating that particular work differently and with a de facto endorsement. I said before, the bible should be made available in a public school in the library, where all the other important pieces of literature are.
I agree 100%, however, it's not the school handing out the books, it's a third party. If it was the school directly distributing the books, then I could see how this could be a problem, but with an outside group distributing it and not preaching about it, there shouldn't be an issue. During my time in public schools I was given a variety of literature from third parties during class on a whole range of topics, some harmless, some controversial. In this case, to ban a third party from distributing the Bible would be a case of treating it different from other texts.SenorToenails wrote:
When this book is treated differently than other texts, then it becomes a problem. It's not like the school was handing out copies of "The Count of Monte Cristo" or "War and Peace" upon request.mcgid1 wrote:
If they had been preaching along with handing out the Bibles, that would be one thing; but just handing out the Bibles isn't unconstitutional. With out the preaching, the Bible is in fact a book, and one that should be studied if for nothing else than for the effect that it has had on Western society, and the many literary works that have either been influenced by it or make reference to it.
As for schools suppressing religion, it seems to be more of a case of individuals, rather than the schools and school districts as a whole. Back in high school, I used to wear a cross on a chain until one of the school's AP's told me to either remove it or be suspended. This is the same school where I spent half of my senior year studying the bible because of it's relationship to major events in Europe's history as well as it's literary influences.
I think there is a piece of information that needs to be more clear. Were actual representatives of the Gideons International at the school, every day, to hand out these copies of the bible upon request? Or were the bibles provided by the Gideons and distributed by the faculty? If the Gideons arrive to distribute bibles, I don't see a problem with that, and neither does the Federal Government (based on their guidelines I posted on the previous page of this thread). But, if the Gideons simply provide the bibles and the school hands them out, then that is a big no-no based on those same guidelines.mcgid wrote:
I agree 100%, however, it's not the school handing out the books, it's a third party. If it was the school directly distributing the books, then I could see how this could be a problem, but with an outside group distributing it and not preaching about it, there shouldn't be an issue. During my time in public schools I was given a variety of literature from third parties during class on a whole range of topics, some harmless, some controversial. In this case, to ban a third party from distributing the Bible would be a case of treating it different from other texts.
The article is not clear on this.
So other than Mormons within the forums, who would have been offended the Book of Mormon being handed out. And the first person to say that they wouldn't be offended at the Koran being handed out is a flat out lier. School is for education, not religious materials distribution or anything else.
If you want your kids to receive religious instruction as part of their education, YOU should pay to send them to a private school.
If you want your kids to receive religious instruction as part of their education, YOU should pay to send them to a private school.
I wish the Qu'ran was handed out at my school - I would probably have read a lot more of it than I have. Instead, I got daily prayer and a religious studies class that covered only Judaism and Christianity. I went to a private Catholic school thoughAgent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
So other than Mormons within the forums, who would have been offended the Book of Mormon being handed out. And the first person to say that they wouldn't be offended at the Koran being handed out is a flat out lier. School is for education, not religious materials distribution or anything else.
If you want your kids to receive religious instruction as part of their education, YOU should pay to send them to a private school.
Too true...KEN-JENNINGS. wrote:
I wish the Qu'ran was handed out at my school...
I've got about 3 or 4 of those Gideons Bibles lying around somewhere. I have no real use for them, and only take them because the people creep me out (One guy even had the nerve to tell us that the shortest sentence ever was in the bible, then tried to make us look for it. I don't think any of us made it past genesis).
I suppose I might want to make a gun which shoots Gideons bibles, would be a better use of them...