Uhh, what?Mek-Izzle wrote:
You don't even realise the hypocrisy just there. At first I was thinking you were actually pointing it out, but you weren't. Which is hilarious imo.Hakei wrote:
Gays:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them - Leviticus 20:13
Murderers:
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed - Genesis 9:6
And Arnott what you said when you quoted me didn't make sense, rephrase.
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He didn't mention anything about a death penalty in the bible. What he did say is that one must forgive another if they ask for forgiveness. So if someone sentenced to death asks forgiveness and is(or seems) sincere then a christian must forgive them. Although part of the forgiving would require repentance, which is essentially a way of proving sincerity. So if a person asks forgiveness and repents for his/ her sins or crimes then a christian would be a hipocrit for not forgiving that person.
Short answer, Yes a christian is a hipocrit if they will not forgive someone in these circumstances. (i dont know other religeons as well so i dont use that as an example). The crime is not the deciding factor though, the level of repentence really has the most meaning.
Technically a death sentence could be supported by christians but they would not be able to put anyone to death that asked forgiveness and was willing to repent their sins. Being put to death is not repenting sins by the way, it is being punished.
Good question +1.
Short answer, Yes a christian is a hipocrit if they will not forgive someone in these circumstances. (i dont know other religeons as well so i dont use that as an example). The crime is not the deciding factor though, the level of repentence really has the most meaning.
Technically a death sentence could be supported by christians but they would not be able to put anyone to death that asked forgiveness and was willing to repent their sins. Being put to death is not repenting sins by the way, it is being punished.
Good question +1.
But what of the executioner? Is he not guilty of sin? Should he not be punished?Bf2-GeneralArnott wrote:
No, its not the end, if God didn't want people to kill, and they do, he wouldn't mind them being punished with death.Mek-Izzle wrote:
Thou shalt not kill. It's in there in your Jew-Christ-Islam commandments. Therefore you shall not kill.
But Moses did it (Egyptians amirite), Muhammad did it (oh he fucking did it like a motherfucker). Jesus.....nah Jesus was cool , but Christianity was never about Jesus anyway.
End of story.
Actually, it really depends on which testement you are talking about.
Old Testement says - "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"
New Testement says - " Turn the other cheek, forgive your neighbors etc..."
Jews - may support death penalty
Christians - Probably should not
Muslims - I dunno but dont think they have a problem with it
The rest - I dunno
Old Testement says - "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"
New Testement says - " Turn the other cheek, forgive your neighbors etc..."
Jews - may support death penalty
Christians - Probably should not
Muslims - I dunno but dont think they have a problem with it
The rest - I dunno
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Oh come on, you expect God to come down here and start killing people and punishing others? Should he check the parking meters as well?sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
As a finite human, I defer to God on that one. He is certainly able to punish them without the sword of authority, but apparently has a reason for giving human government said authority.sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Why not? The Bible is full of that of that very thing.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Oh come on, you expect God to come down here and start killing people and punishing others? Should he check the parking meters as well?sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Well we don't live in the biblical age anymore, now do we? Imagine what would happen if God came down and started handing out parking tickets.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Why not? The Bible is full of that of that very thing.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Oh come on, you expect God to come down here and start killing people and punishing others? Should he check the parking meters as well?sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?
Probably to deter criminals who don't believe in the afterlife. God can punish them all he wants once they're dead, but that won't stop them from killing and raping while they're alive. That's probably what you got human authority for.Stingray24 wrote:
As a finite human, I defer to God on that one. He is certainly able to punish them without the sword of authority, but apparently has a reason for giving human government said authority.sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Last edited by LaidBackNinja (2008-01-16 11:39:57)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
Close. Mosaic law says God required an eye for an eye, death, and other punishments according to laws. SO yes, God did support the death penalty in the OT. But because the Mosaic law was "fulfilled" (meaning it was graduated to a higher law and standard) by the Son of God, Jesus, any form of physical death or punishment is removed/ommitted. It is substituted by repentance, forgiveness, turning the cheek, etc. Also, the part you were close on was the forgiveness...it is actually required of ALL to forgive, even if just "frankly" forgiving..it must be done, period. Even if the perpetrator does not ask for it, you must forgive. This principle is imperative so that you can receive forgiveness of your own sins.PluggedValve wrote:
He didn't mention anything about a death penalty in the bible. What he did say is that one must forgive another if they ask for forgiveness. So if someone sentenced to death asks forgiveness and is(or seems) sincere then a christian must forgive them. Although part of the forgiving would require repentance, which is essentially a way of proving sincerity. So if a person asks forgiveness and repents for his/ her sins or crimes then a christian would be a hipocrit for not forgiving that person.
Short answer, Yes a christian is a hipocrit if they will not forgive someone in these circumstances. (i dont know other religeons as well so i dont use that as an example). The crime is not the deciding factor though, the level of repentence really has the most meaning.
Technically a death sentence could be supported by christians but they would not be able to put anyone to death that asked forgiveness and was willing to repent their sins. Being put to death is not repenting sins by the way, it is being punished.
Good question +1.
"Who" says what crimes are more atrocious than others? Who says a certain crime warrant's death? Who says someone has forfeited their right to live? Who says they can't be in our world or that they can't return to society?LaidBackNinja wrote:
There are certain crimes which are atrocious enough to warrant a death penalty. In these cases, the criminal has forfeited their right to live. There is no more place for them in this world. These monsters will NEVER be able to become a decent member of society.
This is the very vanity of "modern" society that bugs me. What arrogance, what hypocricy (from a so-called "Christian" society), what barbarism. As much as it sucks to not let that pedofile scum get what's coming to him in this life, he will get what's coming to him in the next life...where it matters..and you'll receive your just reward and mercy for not condemning someone to death.
ABOLISH the DEATH PENALTY. It serves NO ONE.
are you mixing human government as a branch of the divine? Tehran much?Stingray24 wrote:
As a finite human, I defer to God on that one. He is certainly able to punish them without the sword of authority, but apparently has a reason for giving human government said authority.sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Well he's God, I mean he's everywhere, isn't he?LaidBackNinja wrote:
Oh come on, you expect God to come down here and start killing people and punishing others? Should he check the parking meters as well?sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?Stingray24 wrote:
God is just and has given government the authority to carry out the death penalty. The executioner is agent of the government carrying out justice and therefore and not guilty of murder.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
What about a falsely accused innocent that is put to death? how do you feel about that? do you deem that to be acceptable?Bf2-GeneralArnott wrote:
I believe in both God and the death penalty, if you commited a crime like murder, you can and will be punished for it, in different ways in different cultures and countries, God didn't want humans to kill one another, even though he knew we would.
I'd be working just to pay them.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Well we don't live in the biblical age anymore, now do we? Imagine what would happen if God came down and started handing out parking tickets.
Actually... it does. The death penalty is not as much a punishment as protecting the rest of society against these criminals. Some criminals are just too far gone to save, and they would just be a danger to others alive. Punishment is God's turf (although I don't believe punishment is actually going to happen) but there's no point in forgiving a murderer if he's just going to murder again and again.IRONCHEF wrote:
"Who" says what crimes are more atrocious than others? Who says a certain crime warrant's death? Who says someone has forfeited their right to live? Who says they can't be in our world or that they can't return to society?LaidBackNinja wrote:
There are certain crimes which are atrocious enough to warrant a death penalty. In these cases, the criminal has forfeited their right to live. There is no more place for them in this world. These monsters will NEVER be able to become a decent member of society.
This is the very vanity of "modern" society that bugs me. What arrogance, what hypocricy (from a so-called "Christian" society), what barbarism. As much as it sucks to not let that pedofile scum get what's coming to him in this life, he will get what's coming to him in the next life...where it matters..and you'll receive your just reward and mercy for not condemning someone to death.
ABOLISH the DEATH PENALTY. It serves NO ONE.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
This guy always gives a good answer, even when you don't agree with him.IRONCHEF wrote:
This is the very vanity of "modern" society that bugs me. What arrogance, what hypocricy (from a so-called "Christian" society), what barbarism. As much as it sucks to not let that pedofile scum get what's coming to him in this life, he will get what's coming to him in the next life...where it matters..and you'll receive your just reward and mercy for not condemning someone to death.
ABOLISH the DEATH PENALTY. It serves NO ONE.
Don´t see the problem if religous people says beeing homosexual is okey i´m sure they can look between the fingers during an executiuon as well. It´s really the same.
Not religous in any way here but as i see it they read and look at their holy books the way they want to so why not death penaltys as well.
Not religous in any way here but as i see it they read and look at their holy books the way they want to so why not death penaltys as well.
But the whole point is that you want to pay them because it is the right thing to do. If God himself started smiting everybody, we'd all just do as told out of fear. That's not the kind of God I believe in, and I think doing things out of fear of God is going about your life in the wrong way. It has to come from inside you, you have to WANT to do the right thing because you FEEL it is the right thing, not because you fear going to hell.sergeriver wrote:
I'd be working just to pay them.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Well we don't live in the biblical age anymore, now do we? Imagine what would happen if God came down and started handing out parking tickets.
But I digress. I feel a lot of these debates are only relevant in a Christian vs Athiest sort of way, and my viewpoints are so markedly different that I keep falling somewhere in between, resulting in nobody getting what I'm trying to say.
Besides, it seems that most of these threads are people attacking Christianity and Christians defending it anyway. There's really no room for other points of view here.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
I agree that some are too far gone. But because that distinction is made by people who can't read minds and who can't truly know the level of "far gone" in someone, it is appropriate not to condemn that person to death. Incarceration is expressly implied in such situations. A jury of peers should not have the responsibility, nor a judge, nor the press, nor the victim's family..to condemn someone to die.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Actually... it does. The death penalty is not as much a punishment as protecting the rest of society against these criminals. Some criminals are just too far gone to save, and they would just be a danger to others alive. Punishment is God's turf (although I don't believe punishment is actually going to happen) but there's no point in forgiving a murderer if he's just going to murder again and again.
I have a friend in San Quentin who is condemned to die. He is ZERO danger to society. He was a danger, he is not anymore. While I am not 100% sure of that certainty..at least as much as the prosecutor and victim's family are sure he's unfit for society, it is not our place to judge. If we were Christian about it, even a butchering murderer like my friend was can truly be rehabilitated, retrained, re-educated, and eventually be given time on earth to make as many amends as he could before he suffers true justice in the next life.
Oh, for what it's worth, i was anti-death penalty before my friend did his crimes.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-01-16 11:53:09)
Haha, i knew it'd impress you. BTW, good thread idea. Nice to add something debatable to DS&T for a change.sergeriver wrote:
This guy always gives a good answer, even when you don't agree with him.IRONCHEF wrote:
This is the very vanity of "modern" society that bugs me. What arrogance, what hypocricy (from a so-called "Christian" society), what barbarism. As much as it sucks to not let that pedofile scum get what's coming to him in this life, he will get what's coming to him in the next life...where it matters..and you'll receive your just reward and mercy for not condemning someone to death.
ABOLISH the DEATH PENALTY. It serves NO ONE.
No, I'll clarify. Serge has asked how religion can support the government carrying such a sentence for murder. Imo, the Romans passage points out that God allows human government to decide if the penalty will be used. There is not a mandate that it must be carried out. Hence, not mixing human government as a branch of the divine.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
are you mixing human government as a branch of the divine? Tehran much?Stingray24 wrote:
As a finite human, I defer to God on that one. He is certainly able to punish them without the sword of authority, but apparently has a reason for giving human government said authority.sergeriver wrote:
Shouldn't God punish those wrongdoers by himself not with the sword of the authority?
This thread is not attacking Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Buddhism. I just asked a question about religion, not a particular religion. Your view is as valid as the one of any other person here so post freely dude.LaidBackNinja wrote:
But the whole point is that you want to pay them because it is the right thing to do. If God himself started smiting everybody, we'd all just do as told out of fear. That's not the kind of God I believe in, and I think doing things out of fear of God is going about your life in the wrong way. It has to come from inside you, you have to WANT to do the right thing because you FEEL it is the right thing, not because you fear going to hell.sergeriver wrote:
I'd be working just to pay them.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Well we don't live in the biblical age anymore, now do we? Imagine what would happen if God came down and started handing out parking tickets.
But I digress. I feel a lot of these debates are only relevant in a Christian vs Athiest sort of way, and my viewpoints are so markedly different that I keep falling somewhere in between, resulting in nobody getting what I'm trying to say.
Besides, it seems that most of these threads are people attacking Christianity and Christians defending it anyway. There's really no room for other points of view here.
I see where you're coming from... but let's say the guy from the Virginia Tech shootings did not kill himself but was arrested instead. Would you want him to go back into society and live a normal life? Do you honestly believe he ever could? I, for one, would never be able to trust such a person.IRONCHEF wrote:
I agree that some are too far gone. But because that distinction is made by people who can't read minds and who can't truly know the level of "far gone" in someone, it is appropriate not to condemn that person to death. Incarceration is expressly implied in such situations. A jury of peers should not have the responsibility, nor a judge, nor the press, nor the victim's family..to condemn someone to die.LaidBackNinja wrote:
Actually... it does. The death penalty is not as much a punishment as protecting the rest of society against these criminals. Some criminals are just too far gone to save, and they would just be a danger to others alive. Punishment is God's turf (although I don't believe punishment is actually going to happen) but there's no point in forgiving a murderer if he's just going to murder again and again.
I have a friend in San Quentin who is condemned to die. He is ZERO danger to society. He was a danger, he is not anymore. While I am 100% unsure of that certainty..at least as much as the prosecutor and victim's family are sure he's unfit for society, it is not our place to judge. If we were Christian about it, even a butchering murderer like my friend was can truly be rehabilitated, retrained, re-educated, and eventually be given time on earth to make as many amends as he could before he suffers true justice in the next life.
Oh, for what it's worth, i was anti-death penalty before my friend did his crimes.
Now, of course I'm not saying we should just off every poor bloke who ever committed a crime, but I do think the death penalty should be an option. Of course, it'd be like the maximum punishment, only handed out in extremely rare cases. The jury and the judge will always have the option of imprisonment rather than execution.
I know, I know. But people tend to use the 'Bible Argument' a lot, which I think is completely irrelevant. It's just that most people here, who are against the death penalty, use arguments that only really 'count' against Christians if you know what I mean. You did not start this thread against any religion, but people have a tendency to turn it into a pro/anti-christian debate. Just look at the arguments given above, most have to do with the bible.sergeriver wrote:
This thread is not attacking Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Buddhism. I just asked a question about religion, not a particular religion. Your view is as valid as the one of any other person here so post freely dude.
Last edited by LaidBackNinja (2008-01-16 11:58:27)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
"You shall not kill"
jesus told you to forgive and love your enemy.
end of thread.
jesus told you to forgive and love your enemy.
end of thread.
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