FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6841|'Murka

topal63 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

topal63 wrote:

You're comical.

"Nefarious," "conspiracy theory," "blinded, "axe-to grind," your gross-characterizations are comical.
So you've resorted to this now? It's called vocabulary.
It is what it is. Gross-characterizations that seem comical to me.

_________

... in contrast to the feverish preparations for war with Iraq taking place in 2002 at the Pentagon and the United States Central Command under Gen. Tommy R. Franks with the misleading statements emanating from senior officials (the authors note).

An excert from ""Cobra II",

"I have no war plans on my desk," President Bush told a May 23, 2002, news conference. Given that planning for the war had been under way for six months, "the president's statement was true in only the most literal and trivial sense," the authors write. General Franks, the authors note, went even further. When a radio reporter asked him that same month how many troops he would need to invade Iraq, he replied that Secretary Rumsfeld "has not yet asked me to put together a plan to do that." If even half of what Mr. Gordon and General Trainor report about the state of planning by late May 2002 is true, this was a lie.
And where in there does it mention the intel we've been discussing here? It doesn't. You have to actually read the book.

And FYI: You don't share compartmented planning with the general public, as a rule.

Last edited by FEOS (2008-01-24 11:39:43)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6910|Somewhere else

It's pretty easy to find evidence for anything, when the search is just for excuses to go to war, had they looked at both sides of the argument, thing would have been very different.

The Bush administration (Not Republicans in general) are nothing but a bunch of lying, greedy, power hungy criminals.   Thier reasons for war are very grey at best.

But you cannot forget that Hussien was slaughtering and terrorizing his own people.  It's just unfortunate that the country went into a realm of internal terrorism after Saddam's removal.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7062|949

Office of Special Plans - dedicated to manipulating evidence to make the case for war against Saddam.

The CPI overview of the study-
The overview of the study also calls the media to task, saying most media outlets didn't do enough to investigate the claims.

"Some journalists -- indeed, even some entire news organizations -- have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical," the report reads. "These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional, 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq."
PureFodder
Member
+225|6716
I have problems with the WMD and 'Saddam is evil' reasons for the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

In the 80s Saddam was already known to be a brutal fucker while western nations happily sold him chemical weapon precursors and infomation on chemical weapons production and nobody gave the slightest shit.

Then he gasses to death a huge number of his own populace both proving he's a mass murdering fucker and had WMDs and nobody gives a shit.

The first Iraq invasion removes pretty well all of Saddams WMDs, production capability and millitary forces.

Years later there's possibly some evidence that he may have gotten back some of the WMDs that we didn't give a shit about previously and this means we have to invade. Even if the intel was true it fails to explain the invasion. The crimes Saddam commited against his own populace that we didn't care about at the time or in the 15 years afterwards are suddenly front page news and a pressing reason to invade.

Any reasoning about the Iraq invasion that doesn't focus on that black, flamable stuff that's worth an unbelievable shitload of money is quite clearly missing the point.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6929|Texas
I really don't care if they lied.

My guess is that they made the decision that for whatever reason the guy needed to be taken out (pissed that he tried to kill a sitting President is my bet and that's good enough for me) and they cooked up whatever story they had to cook up to appease the idiotic masses who sit on their fat lazy asses waiting for government cheese and welfare checks.

I'm okay with that.

Spend a day assessing the intelligence of the people around you, irrespective of where you work or what you do, and you will be appalled. I don't give a SHIT what those people think. I'm betting Rumsfeld and Cheney thought long and hard about it, made a decision, and ran with it and all that other crap was just to rally the voting slobs.

Hooray.

I'm for a Limited Monarchy so we wouldn't have all these bullshit discussions.
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6770
"People blinded by hatred of the current US administration are having a hard time dealing with the historical record on this one."

PS - maybe they hate the gov't for a reason.  Sick of being lied to, misrepresented and stolen from.  If the gov't pays you 100k/ year you might want to protect your job and therefor turn on the blinders to these controversial topics.  I have absolutely nothing to gain by calling the government liars, cheats thieves or anything else.  In fact i would rather be content and happy with the job my government does.  You on the other hand have a job that could be at risk if your name appears in some sort of article critisizing(sp?) the government.  So when you talk about turning a blind eye, look at the people who have the most to gain or lose.  These Truth.org groups etc.. have nothing to gain out of this.  Their reputations get ruined, they are labelled as cooks and my favorite, called "unpatriotic" because they want their government to answer questions regarding some of the decisions they make.

As far as historical records go.  Who writes the historical records??  The winner.  You dont hear too much about a people that have been wiped off the map.  So the winner of a war or whatever kind of conflict can basically make up any justification they need to because there is no one left to dispute the farce that gets recorded.  200 years from now, likely the only records of 9/11 will be the "official version" provided by GWB.  So any lies, schemes etc... can be hidden before he presents his "official version" to be recorded.

Either the Intel dept is useless and should curtail there massive expense on the taxpayer or the government is a bunch of liars (not news).  In this case it could be both.  IMO when the US Cheney started trying to draw links between AQ and Iraq, that was the tell tale sign of a lie.  Now, how is it that every other country in the UN(other than a couple) felt that the evidence was insufficient.??  If the UN felt there was enough evidence of WMD's they said they would have gone in.  The evidence provided was weak at best so they didn't go in. 

Now here is maybe a more important question.  The US went to war in Iraq based on circumstantial evidence, some dated to the early 90's.  After 9/11, there was TONS of circumstantial evidence pointing to the Administration.  But out came the slogan "your either with us or against us!"  NONE of the major media outlets even questioned the theory that "cave-dwellers" masterminded an attack in the US.  One attack(Pentagon) was on the most restricted air space in the world!  And some cave dwellers succeeded in attacking the pentagon???

Now i dont want to get side tracked too much, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence regarding 9/11 and the Bush Admin.  I dont even think there was near that much circumstantial evidence about Iraq yet they went to war based on it. 

So why is circumstantial evidence treated so differently depending on who is providing it??  American's ate up the Iraq story, yet refuse to believe their slime ball, 72% average student who gets into Harvard and Yale,  President could lie to the country.  Now, i definetely agree that he doesnt have the intelligence to master mind this plot, but he has strings attached that get pulled by the mastermind.  IMO its his 33rd degree freemason father, but thats just a guess.

Anyway, moral of the story is dont throw stones if you live in a glass house.  And when you are saying "this is because people blindly blame everything on the admistration because they hate the admin."  that makes you the guy throwing stones in your glass house.  You WORK for the gov't, so maybe you are the one actually blindly blaming Muslims because GWBush said that they did it when in fact it hasn't been "proven beyond a shred of a doubt".  If ya haven't noticed there is still ALOT of doubt.

Im not trying to attack you or your opinion, but your one liner about "blindly hating the Bush Admin" is BS.  By the way their are alot of people on your side of this debate that are quite blind themselves.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7062|949

Dersmikner wrote:

I really don't care if they lied.

My guess is that they made the decision that for whatever reason the guy needed to be taken out (pissed that he tried to kill a sitting President is my bet and that's good enough for me) and they cooked up whatever story they had to cook up to appease the idiotic masses who sit on their fat lazy asses waiting for government cheese and welfare checks.

I'm okay with that.

Spend a day assessing the intelligence of the people around you, irrespective of where you work or what you do, and you will be appalled. I don't give a SHIT what those people think. I'm betting Rumsfeld and Cheney thought long and hard about it, made a decision, and ran with it and all that other crap was just to rally the voting slobs.

Hooray.

I'm for a Limited Monarchy so we wouldn't have all these bullshit discussions.
He didn't try to kill a sitting president from what I remember.  A would-be assassin tried to kill former President Bush after he was out of office in Jordan I think it was, but I can't quite remember.  It was linked to Saddam's regime, hence the "he tried to kill my dad" line.

"Appeasing the idiotic masses" - an interesting opinion.  The middle class is predominantly the section of America "appeased", as most lower class people I know were either a) too busy trying to work and live to give a shit about politics or b) pissed off about the fact that we are dumping billions of dollars into a war instead of our own country.

Are you a voting slob?  I vote, but by no means am I a slob.  Sometimes I can be a bit of an asshole.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6929|Texas
OH I'm DEFINITELY one of the people they're thinking they were appeasing. I'm sure they look at me as a number, a little bitty cog in the wheel who just needs to do his job, add to the economy and shut the hell up, a typical voting slob, but I'm okay with that. The day that scares me is the day you can vote through your television. That shit will make socialism look like Adam Smith's Utopia.

Remember the old lines:

1. Democracy is doomed to fail once the masses realize they can vote themselves largesse from the community coffers.

2. Search all your parks in all your cities, you'll find no statues of committees.

I really don't mind that there is an illuminati running things, taking us for a bunch of dipshits, because the truth is that most of us are (maybe including me) and I've got it pretty damned good under their evil reign.

Last edited by Dersmikner (2008-01-24 12:48:05)

topal63
. . .
+533|7149
LOL
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7062|949

Dersmikner wrote:

OH I'm DEFINITELY one of the people they're thinking they were appeasing. I'm sure they look at me as a number, a little bitty cog in the wheel who just needs to do his job, add to the economy and shut the hell up, a typical voting slob, but I'm okay with that. The day that scares me is the day you can vote through your television. That shit will make socialism look like Adam Smith's Utopia.

Remember the old lines:

1. Democracy is doomed to fail once the masses realize they can vote themselves largesse from the community coffers.

2. Search all your parks in all your cities, you'll find no statues of committees.

I really don't mind that there is an illuminati running things, taking us for a bunch of dipshits, because the truth is that most of us are (maybe including me) and I've got it pretty damned good under their evil reign.
At least you are honest (in your self-assessment).
topal63
. . .
+533|7149
It's funny but I always feel almost exactly the opposite. That mass conglomerations of sentient conscious beings; society - creates a force that is difficult to guide; to give it a mythical name - a dragon.

To me America is like a dragon that has no head (therefore: no Illuminati; no one & no one group really controlling its' course). One can hold the dragon's tail for a moment, and re-direct it for that moment, but that is all and that is a very temporary form of control. If it can be called control at all?

Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-24 13:17:23)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6841|'Murka

PluggedValve wrote:

Anyway, moral of the story is dont throw stones if you live in a glass house.  And when you are saying "this is because people blindly blame everything on the admistration because they hate the admin."  that makes you the guy throwing stones in your glass house.  You WORK for the gov't, so maybe you are the one actually blindly blaming Muslims because GWBush said that they did it when in fact it hasn't been "proven beyond a shred of a doubt".  If ya haven't noticed there is still ALOT of doubt.

Im not trying to attack you or your opinion, but your one liner about "blindly hating the Bush Admin" is BS.  By the way their are alot of people on your side of this debate that are quite blind themselves.
Erm...wow. I won't address the part I deleted. Mainly because I wouldn't even know where to start.

But as to your assertion that somehow, because I work for the govt, I am a blind supporter of this administration is flat wrong. There is no political litmus test to work for the government. In fact, the majority of the govt employees in Washington DC are flaming liberals who despise Bush. There's no doubt I'm conservative, but I'm no big fan of Bush or his administration.

What exactly is "my side of the debate"? I've only pointed out technical and logical flaws with the assertion that intel was falsified and/or officials lied when discussing said intel. All I get back are "Bush lied people died" and other emotional garbage. When I do get a return argument that is somewhat lucid, it's normally based on an incorrect assumption about either military planning or intelligence processes. And it normally comes from someone who has no background to speak of in either of those disciplines. Unfortunately, when people who aren't educated in those areas get return fire in the form of facts (as opposed to emotion), they are too close-minded to see that it is not as black-and-white an issue as they would like to believe. That, while the Bush administration has made many mistakes, lying about pre-war intelligence was not one of them.

It's just too hard for some of these people to believe that it was bad intel...because they want so much to pin all blame for everything on Bush.

If I had an opinion about, say, real estate...and Kmarion came back and said "it doesn't work that way", I would stop and re-examine my opinion. Maybe research the things he recommended I research. Why? Because he has an experiential background in real estate that I don't. I only know that because he has said he's a realtor...so I take him at his word. I don't call him names or say he's condescending or anything like that.

But that approach doesn't work in these types of threads...because apparently there are so many military planning and intelligence experts on BF2S. I mean, who'da thunk it?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7062|949

Intelligence and evidence was crafted to support Bush (PNAC) policy.  That evidence (created by the OSP) was not scrutinized, fact-checked, and cross-referenced by the intelligence community.  That is a fact.

DOD Office of Inspector General Review of Pre-Iraqi War Activities of the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy

Results
The Office of the Under Secretaryof Defense for Policy developed, produced, and then disseminated alternative intelligence assessments on the Iraq and Al-Qaeda relationship, which included some conclusions that were inconsistent with the Intelligence Community, to senior decision makers.  While such actions were not illegal or unauthorized, the actions were, in our opinion, inappropriate given that the intelligence assessments were intelligence products and did not clearly show the variance with the consensus of the Intelligence Community.  This condition occured because of an expanded role and mission of The Office of the Under Secretaryof Defense for Policy from policy formation to alternative intelligence analysis and dissemination.  As a result, The Office of the Under Secretaryof Defense for Policy did not provide "the most accurate analysis of intelligence" to senior decision makers.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-01-24 14:00:38)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6841|'Murka

That talks to roll-up reports. I was speaking about individual indicators. Two different things.

Additionally, that speaks specifically to the Iraq-AQ connection, not WMD. Again, different issues.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7062|949

FEOS wrote:

That talks to roll-up reports. I was speaking about individual indicators. Two different things.

Additionally, that speaks specifically to the Iraq-AQ connection, not WMD. Again, different issues.
That (AQ-Iraq connection) was referenced in the CPI report quoted in the OP.  I am not countering what you are saying (regarding specific intelligence), just showing there was collusion and misrepresentation of facts during the buildup to the Iraq War - providing more evidence that the Bush Administration did in fact lie.
topal63
. . .
+533|7149
UK Ordered To Make Blair's Iraq WMD Documents Public (Jan. 24, 2008)
WMD's... who knows what (info.) they were really looking at? Not me - that's for sure. Maybe we'll find out something here? Maybe not. Either way having modern weapons (WMDs) in a modern world is different than conclusively demonstrating: intent, capability or threat.
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6770

FEOS wrote:

PluggedValve wrote:

Anyway, moral of the story is dont throw stones if you live in a glass house.  And when you are saying "this is because people blindly blame everything on the admistration because they hate the admin."  that makes you the guy throwing stones in your glass house.  You WORK for the gov't, so maybe you are the one actually blindly blaming Muslims because GWBush said that they did it when in fact it hasn't been "proven beyond a shred of a doubt".  If ya haven't noticed there is still ALOT of doubt.

Im not trying to attack you or your opinion, but your one liner about "blindly hating the Bush Admin" is BS.  By the way their are alot of people on your side of this debate that are quite blind themselves.
"Erm...wow. I won't address the part I deleted. Mainly because I wouldn't even know where to start."

"But as to your assertion that somehow, because I work for the govt, I am a blind supporter of this administration is flat wrong. There is no political litmus test to work for the government. In fact, the majority of the govt employees in Washington DC are flaming liberals who despise Bush. There's no doubt I'm conservative, but I'm no big fan of Bush or his administration."

I never said that BECAAUSE you work for the gov't your a blind supporter, I said that you may have something to lose, therefor more CHANCE of being a blind supporter.  Im not pretending i know you, Im not saying your wrong for that matter.  Im just saying that a government employee may have more to lose by having an anti-gov't opinion than a private sector person.

"What exactly is "my side of the debate"? I've only pointed out technical and logical flaws with the assertion that intel was falsified and/or officials lied when discussing said intel. All I get back are "Bush lied people died" and other emotional garbage. When I do get a return argument that is somewhat lucid, it's normally based on an incorrect assumption about either military planning or intelligence processes. And it normally comes from someone who has no background to speak of in either of those disciplines. Unfortunately, when people who aren't educated in those areas get return fire in the form of facts (as opposed to emotion), they are too close-minded to see that it is not as black-and-white an issue as they would like to believe. That, while the Bush administration has made many mistakes, lying about pre-war intelligence was not one of them."

From your blog posts it seems your "side of the debate" is that the government has done their investigation, and that any other investigation is wrong unless it finds the same as the gov't.  And about the investigation, If you were a suspect in a murder case would they allow you to do the investigating??  The gov't HAS to be at least considered a suspect as so many things went wrong all at once.  Wether or not they did it, they at least should be investigated by a NON-gov't body to prove their innocence.  But they didn't allow any third party investigations, hmmm.

"It's just too hard for some of these people to believe that it was bad intel...because they want so much to pin all blame for everything on Bush."

Its hard to believe, your right about that.  Way too much bad intel to casually blame on that.  I would like to pin all the blame on Bush but he doesn't have the mental capacity to pull this off.  I will say that he has the connections to pull this off, even if he knows nothing about it they could have manipulated him.  He is not known as the brightest light in the box, i think you would agree.

"If I had an opinion about, say, real estate...and Kmarion came back and said "it doesn't work that way", I would stop and re-examine my opinion. Maybe research the things he recommended I research. Why? Because he has an experiential background in real estate that I don't. I only know that because he has said he's a realtor...so I take him at his word. I don't call him names or say he's condescending or anything like that."

I didnt call you any names.  And im sorry if i sound condescending, but i would also say your one liner was condescending.  Bringing us to the glass house story again.

"But that approach doesn't work in these types of threads...because apparently there are so many military planning and intelligence experts on BF2S. I mean, who'da thunk it?"

Look, i haven't claimed to be an expert on the military.  I have done my own independent research though and i have read articles from many sources from David Icke, Truth.org, i watched most of Bush's speeches when rallying the country for war and in explaining 9/11, i watch right wing media including Pat Robertson, Billy Kristol and the mighty FOX news.  And alot of stuff in between.  The reason i come to the conclusions i have is based on the evidence provided by each arguement and source.  I am yet to hear anyone explain how Jet Fuel melted the support beams in WTC and "weakened" the metal to a point that it fell in virtual free fall.  The speed of gravity.  As if there was no floor to slow the fall.  The official story said the building collapsed because of what they called "a pancake effect".  If this imaginary pancake effect actually took place the building would have taken longer to fall.  I cant say exactly how much longer, but it certainly would NOT have fallen at the speed of gravity.  Now as soon as the "official story" can explain at least half of the major questions like this, I will consider believing it.  But the official story has holes all over the place and they will not allow an independent investigation to support their claim.  So why would i believe them??

For about half the population, the Bush admin doing the investigation is the equivelant of Osama Bin Laden doing the investigation for the other half.  That is my point, why should i believe the investigation when the investigators are IMO also suspects.

Last edited by PluggedValve (2008-01-24 15:00:35)

Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7147
Sodumb Hussein tried to bluff the world... We called his bluff...
Love is the answer
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7031|132 and Bush

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Sodumb Hussein tried to bluff the world... We called his bluff...
Interesting read here. As far as what he might have been thinking at least.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6770

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Sodumb Hussein tried to bluff the world... We called his bluff...
Can you elaborate as in how did he "try to bluff the world"??   Looks to me like the US had their bluff called and had to make a reason to go to war to get him back.  He stood up in the face of the mighty US and said "piss off, go run your own country".  Much like Iran is donig now.  So now do you call their bluff??  Start up a real war??  Good job guys keep up this war on terrorism that causes more terror than it prevents.
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6770

Kmarion wrote:

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Sodumb Hussein tried to bluff the world... We called his bluff...
Interesting read here. As far as what he might have been thinking at least.
That is an interesting read.  I dont understand why he would be so worried about the Iranians though.  The Iranians have NEVER occupied a foreign country before, including Iraq, who was the aggressor in the Iraq-Iran War in the early 80's.

Thing that scares me more is that alot of american's buy into the Iran is a threat story, which they are not.  At least not until we back them into a corner, which we are with sanctions and all the politicing going on tring to pidgeon hole them.  They are being painted with a bad brush and most of these concerns are at the very least overhyped.  I personally bel;ieve that they are trying to arm themselves, but mostly for protection when Israel does their pre-emptive stike.  Not to attack Washington from the middle east.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7188|Argentina
Anyone thinking that Bush didn't lie about Iraq is a naive guy to say the least.  Bush asked Richard Clarke on Sept 12 2001 to search a link between Saddam and 9/11.  Clarke sent him a report after a few days where he said there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in 9/11.  Bush refused the report and told Clarke to rewrite it.  You can read this in Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke.  Clarke also told that he warned Bush about an al-Qaeda attack but Bush was too busy obsessed with Saddam.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6841|'Murka

sergeriver wrote:

Anyone thinking that Bush didn't lie about Iraq is a naive guy to say the least.  Bush asked Richard Clarke on Sept 12 2001 to search a link between Saddam and 9/11.  Clarke sent him a report after a few days where he said there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in 9/11.  Bush refused the report and told Clarke to rewrite it.  You can read this in Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke.  Clarke also told that he warned Bush about an al-Qaeda attack but Bush was too busy obsessed with Saddam.
If it weren't written by the same guy they're talking about--and trying to make himself look like the unappreciated hero--then it might hold a bit more weight.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
tthf
Member 5307
+210|7188|06-01
there are strong arguements for boths sides here, but after spending a night of reading old news clippings, i tend to believe that Bush & Co manupilated what 'positive' intel they had to promote their agenda while they suppressed the 'negative' intel.
and oh, there was a bunch of lying about having war plans as well.
whatever your belief may be, the terrible tragedy is that countless lifes have been loss by an administration that has sorely abused its power as the sole superpower on this planet.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6836|North Carolina
This thread proves only one thing.  Iraq was, for both parties, a scapegoat for distracting people from the failures of the people in power.

The irony is that Iraq has now become the biggest failure of this administration.

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