AQ learned a lot from Somalia
In the same way that Iraq is not the business of anyone but Iraqis, Somalia was not and is not the business of anyone but Somalians. It's called the developing world. Let it develop of its own accord. Are you gonna throw a few billion and a couple of hundred thousand troops towards other places you have no duty or responsibility towards? Burma, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tibet, Sudan, Haiti, Congo, Palestine, Chechnya, Pakistan...........usmarine wrote:
Nope, not talking about GWB this time.
I wonder if Clinton can sleep at night? What happens in Iraq will be judged in due time. History will show whether it was right or wrong. We can argue about it now and that is fine. But time does have a way of sorting out what worked and what has not worked.
"The situation is very severe. It is the most pressing humanitarian emergency in the world today -- even worse than Darfur,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080129/wl_ … efugees_dc
Now some of you may think this is Clinton bashing. It is not. I lost a family member in Somalia. I have been there myself. We (the US) pulled out and ran away leaving that place a mess.
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-30 17:14:31)
rdx-fx wrote:
Sent troops into a shit-hole, so he could claim to be doing something..
Bill Clinton didn't give a damn about the troops. To him, we were expendable pawns to be used to nudge an opinion poll a couple points in his favor, not an instrument of foreign policy.
These two quotes basically sum up my thoughts to this discussion.FEOS wrote:
Whether we should have been there to begin with is a separate issue. We were there, we had a mission. Clinton ran away because he couldn't handle the press. After we left, the rest of the UN forces left. And Somalia became what it is today...even worse than before.
How about we just talk about the OP and Somalia for a change.CameronPoe wrote:
In the same way that Iraq is not the business of anyone but Iraqis, Somalia was not and is not the business of anyone but Somalians. It's called the developing world. Let it develop of its own accord. Are you gonna throw a few billion and a couple of hundred thousand troops towards other places you have no duty or responsibility towards? Burma, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tibet, Sudan, Haiti, Congo, Palestine, Chechnya, Pakistan...........usmarine wrote:
Nope, not talking about GWB this time.
I wonder if Clinton can sleep at night? What happens in Iraq will be judged in due time. History will show whether it was right or wrong. We can argue about it now and that is fine. But time does have a way of sorting out what worked and what has not worked.
"The situation is very severe. It is the most pressing humanitarian emergency in the world today -- even worse than Darfur,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080129/wl_ … efugees_dc
Now some of you may think this is Clinton bashing. It is not. I lost a family member in Somalia. I have been there myself. We (the US) pulled out and ran away leaving that place a mess.
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
change the title thenusmarine wrote:
How about we just talk about the OP and Somalia for a change.CameronPoe wrote:
In the same way that Iraq is not the business of anyone but Iraqis, Somalia was not and is not the business of anyone but Somalians. It's called the developing world. Let it develop of its own accord. Are you gonna throw a few billion and a couple of hundred thousand troops towards other places you have no duty or responsibility towards? Burma, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tibet, Sudan, Haiti, Congo, Palestine, Chechnya, Pakistan...........usmarine wrote:
Nope, not talking about GWB this time.
I wonder if Clinton can sleep at night? What happens in Iraq will be judged in due time. History will show whether it was right or wrong. We can argue about it now and that is fine. But time does have a way of sorting out what worked and what has not worked.
"The situation is very severe. It is the most pressing humanitarian emergency in the world today -- even worse than Darfur,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080129/wl_ … efugees_dc
Now some of you may think this is Clinton bashing. It is not. I lost a family member in Somalia. I have been there myself. We (the US) pulled out and ran away leaving that place a mess.
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
why am I doing your job
edit: About Somalia, it was always fucked up
Last edited by Mek-Izzle (2008-01-30 17:18:01)
The answer is hidden in the post - Clinton left because American lives were needlessly being put at risk for no good reason. End of story. It ain't just Somalia - take a look around: the whole of Africa is fucked, why would Somalia be any different and why would anyone be so naive as to think they could actually fix it? If the US had stuck to Somalia they'd be here to this very day and the precious troops whose lives they see fit to waste in Iraq would not have been available for said mission...usmarine wrote:
How about we just talk about the OP and Somalia for a change.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-30 17:22:14)
Not all of Africa. Until recently Kenya was pretty decent. The main thing here is...CameronPoe wrote:
The answer is hidden in the post - Clinton left because American lives were needlessly being put at risk for no good reason. End of story. It ain't just Somalia - take a look around: the whole of Africa is fucked, why would Somalia be any different!usmarine wrote:
How about we just talk about the OP and Somalia for a change.
Sub-Saharan Africa + Islam = Ultimate Fail
lol. Until recently...Mek-Izzle wrote:
Not all of Africa. Until recently Kenya was pretty decent. The main thing here is...CameronPoe wrote:
The answer is hidden in the post - Clinton left because American lives were needlessly being put at risk for no good reason. End of story. It ain't just Somalia - take a look around: the whole of Africa is fucked, why would Somalia be any different!usmarine wrote:
How about we just talk about the OP and Somalia for a change.
Sub-Saharan Africa + Islam = Ultimate Fail
I concur, so please take back the ultimate Irish douche bag Bono and make him quit trying to exploit America for AIDSville (Africa). We'll take the money spent on developing third-world regions and give our troops a nice raise and better housing when we get them home to guard our borders from everyone trying to get into America illegally with it's new raise.CameronPoe wrote:
In the same way that Iraq is not the business of anyone but Iraqis, Somalia was not and is not the business of anyone but Somalians. It's called the developing world. Let it develop of its own accord. Are you gonna throw a few billion and a couple of hundred thousand troops towards other places you have no duty or responsibility towards? Burma, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tibet, Sudan, Haiti, Congo, Palestine, Chechnya, Pakistan...........
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
Clinton dropped out of somalia because he realized that you can't fix Africa with more bullets. That whole continent is a mess, and would be, even with 250,000 UN soldiers in there.
As Cam said, you have to allow every nation/culture to develop at its own speed. When the western nations developped their ideas of freedom, liberalism, and democracy, it happened on our own account, too. It was brutal, and took a long time. The french revolutuon wasn't really a peaceful affair, if I remember correctly. A lot of heads were cut.
In the end, however, we overcame that.
Maybe Africa isn't there just yet. But when and if it happens should be up to them, not to us.
As Cam said, you have to allow every nation/culture to develop at its own speed. When the western nations developped their ideas of freedom, liberalism, and democracy, it happened on our own account, too. It was brutal, and took a long time. The french revolutuon wasn't really a peaceful affair, if I remember correctly. A lot of heads were cut.
In the end, however, we overcame that.
Maybe Africa isn't there just yet. But when and if it happens should be up to them, not to us.
So, you are suggesting that the US stop all foreign aid and become isolationist again? If memory serves...that didn't work out too well last time...or in 1809...or...CameronPoe wrote:
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
nothing is wrong with foreign aid as long as it actually helps people there to stand on their own two feet.RAIMIUS wrote:
So, you are suggesting that the US stop all foreign aid and become isolationist again? If memory serves...that didn't work out too well last time...or in 1809...or...CameronPoe wrote:
Nobody actually really owes any duty to these people.
What Cam is refering to is keeping out of the political affairs of the continent. As long as they keep fighting among themselves, there is no need to intervene. They'll either figure out the whole democracy/freedom thing themselves, or they'll decide that it's just not for them. Either way, it is their decision, not ours.
I realize that most of us would like to bring the benefits of freedom and democracy to other nations in the world. A valuable goal indeed.
But as it would seem, not everyone wants democracy. People are different. If they don't want it, who are we to force it upon them ?
Funny thing about Somalia, the ones being oppressed want democracy. The ones with the guns and food do not want it. Go figure.B.Schuss wrote:
not everyone wants democracy
That's a bit of an assumption. I know that some of those being oppressed want an Islamic Republic.usmarine wrote:
Funny thing about Somalia, the ones being oppressed want democracy. The ones with the guns and food do not want it. Go figure.B.Schuss wrote:
not everyone wants democracy
Not back then they didn't. Maybe now because it is just a complete mess they just want something.CameronPoe wrote:
That's a bit of an assumption. I know that some of those being oppressed want an Islamic Republic.
the ones being oppressed probably want freedom and / or peace. I doubt they have a specific system of government in mind.usmarine wrote:
Funny thing about Somalia, the ones being oppressed want democracy. The ones with the guns and food do not want it. Go figure.B.Schuss wrote:
not everyone wants democracy
And to be honest, from what I can tell, democracy does not seem to be the appropriate system of government for all areas of the world.
There are regions where it works, and others where it obviously doesn't.
I don't think we should be the ones to dictate who is governed in what way. that's up to the people to decide for themselves.
Funnily enough, that's also how the US came into existence, wasn't it ?
Leveling the trade playing field will do more for Africa over night than years of troops will ever do.
Personally I think the developed world is shitting itself at the thought of another China springing up. So does fuck all.
Personally I think the developed world is shitting itself at the thought of another China springing up. So does fuck all.