IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6919|Northern California
I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night and was amazed yet again how close our country is like to that Orwellian fabricated UK (obviously realizing the movie is meant to depict the US pattern of degrading rights), and then I read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/washi … om.html?hp

"The president effectively gave the House a deadline to act, since the current authority to intercept telephone conversations or electronic communications expires at midnight on Saturday.

“There is no reason why Republicans and Democrats in the House cannot pass the bill immediately,” he said in comments made at the White House, adding that the failure to do so “will jeopardize the security of our citizens.”

The president’s remarks came the morning after the Senate handed the White House a major victory by voting to broaden the government’s spy powers and to give legal protection to phone companies that cooperated in President Bush’s program of eavesdropping without warrants."


Amazingly, I can still be astonished and baffled at the things this wicked, wicked, asbackwards man can do, and reading this I was yet again astonished at the audacity with which he tramples the Constitution beneath his feet.  I can imagine the various inaugural speeches and swearing in of some of our past and current presidents, and then I read this stuff and see the blatant, shameless, pathetic destruction of those oaths made.

And Clinton was impeached for lying about his personal life....

Bush is putting us back into the stone-age, and he freely struts around like the redneck chickenhawk cowboy coward he is with no more than little Dennis Kucinich threatening to submit articles of impeachment to congress...but not really...


Right now, our communications are compromised.  Today, yesterday, and tomorrow, you can count on not having privacy.  You can count on your domestic and international calls being monitored.  And it's because ATT and probably other telco's can freely (with total immunity) go about doing the NSA's bidding and spy on Americans!  Read that again..."ATT...(with total immunity) [can] go about..and spy on Americans!

Yes, yes, I know, I know...it's "ONLY DONE" to calls made outside the country in or inside out...and it's only to catch "the terrorists."  And if you believe that, you seriously need a wake up call.  First of all, it's not even that productive.  The baddies are ALREADY here, IF there even is some planning going on.  And if there's planning going on for another disaster, it's obvious the baddies know about it and will, like their master OBL, will not be using ma bell to complete those calls.  They won't post on myspace their plans, and they won't be emailing each other over their blackberries.  So who then are they spying on?  You don't control a country with fear and lies if you're not afraid of it.  This is not a new concept and it's in full bloom here in "#1 USA!"




Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.


Discuss.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-02-13 13:52:48)

Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7164|Salt Lake City

Couldn't agree more.  But surely there will come those with the same old tired argument that if you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you be afraid.  This country was founded on innocent until proven guilty, and there had to be a justifiable cause to get a warrant.  Hell, why don't we just go and take a sharpie to the constitution.  Just black out the 4th amendment.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2008-02-13 14:00:26)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

^^This is why.

Xbone Stormsurgezz
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6919|Northern California

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Couldn't agree more.  But surely there will come those with the same old tired argument that if you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you be afraid.
How odd...i can't think of anyone here that would say such a thing!  lol    **hear's usmarine coming to his keyboard...**
motherdear
Member
+25|7079|Denmark/Minnesota (depends)
okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7164|Salt Lake City

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
There is one big difference.  We aren't at war with a definable army.  We are in a war on terrorism.  It has always existed, and will never be gone.  We should also learn from history that once we give up certain rights, that the government isn't all that likely to rescind them.
smartdude992
Keep your head down, smart's got a gun
+30|6360|Georgia, US of A
man, there is nothing this forum will do to stop it, sorry to say
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6768
Most people are sheep that are easily herded into the coral.  The ones not as easily herded are called "unpatriotic" or "lunatic's" or "terrorist's".  That makes people less likely to stand up for their rights, because as we all know, American's dont want to be called "unpatriotic" even if it is for the most patriotic cause out there (freedom).

The irony is great in this, because the people claiming to "defend freedom" are the ones taking it away.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6919|Northern California

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
Wow.  You are a victim of mass media propaganda and you don't even know it.

1) Didn't say it was just Bush.  He's just the foremost.  Lincoln suspended Habeaus Corpus, but then it was returned...that's about it for Lincoln.  Can i speak with you now?? lol

2)  Sometimes things like this are justified?  In what country?  China?  USSR?  N Korea?  UK from V for Vendetta?  Sure.  But in the USA where such a thing is strictly prohibited and outlawed because it wasn't in their last country of residence?

3) OOoh!  Ooga Booga Booga!   you sound like Condi or Cheney when you said, "..the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going off in new york.."  and you're saying my conspiracy is bs?  What's more likely, a nuke in New York, or us getting eaves dropped on?  Oh yeah, it's already public information that we ARE being eavesdropped on...in direct violation to our sacred 4th amendment rights.  Soon it'll be ok to send unmanned aerial vehicles over cities with eavesdropping mics in them to listen to our conversations about how dissatisfied we are with our government!

4) War is not a platform to spy on your own people.  What kind of assbackwards reasoning is that?  I've seen a million variations of the quote that came from one of our forefathers saying that if you give up freedom for security, you will lose both.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-02-13 14:14:54)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
Oh god, not Lincoln again. How in the hell can any rational person compare the two situations? Section Nine, clause Two of our constitution.
http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html Lincoln was in bounds, Bush ... not so much.

Two very different scenarios.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6558|North Tonawanda, NY

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
No, No, No!

When is compromising your freedom ever justified?

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6873|The Land of Scott Walker

smartdude992 wrote:

man, there is nothing this forum will do to stop it, sorry to say
And nothing any politician will to either ...
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6839|'Murka

IRONCHEF wrote:

And Clinton was impeached for lying about his personal life....
No. He was impeached for lying while under a sworn oath about his personal life. That is, in fact, a crime.


IRONCHEF wrote:

Right now, our communications are compromised.  Today, yesterday, and tomorrow, you can count on not having privacy.  You can count on your domestic and international calls being monitored.  And it's because ATT and probably other telco's can freely (with total immunity) go about doing the NSA's bidding and spy on Americans!  Read that again..."ATT...(with total immunity) [can] go about..and spy on Americans!
Go read up on Title 18, US Code. Then check again to see if the sky is falling. It won't be.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yes, yes, I know, I know...it's "ONLY DONE" to calls made outside the country in or inside out...and it's only to catch "the terrorists."  And if you believe that, you seriously need a wake up call.  First of all, it's not even that productive.  The baddies are ALREADY here, IF there even is some planning going on.  And if there's planning going on for another disaster, it's obvious the baddies know about it and will, like their master OBL, will not be using ma bell to complete those calls.  They won't post on myspace their plans, and they won't be emailing each other over their blackberries.  So who then are they spying on?  You don't control a country with fear and lies if you're not afraid of it.  This is not a new concept and it's in full bloom here in "#1 USA!"
Well if you know where they are and how they work, please pass that to the FBI so they can round the fuckers up. You don't know either of those things, so this rant, while interesting, is utterly irrelevant.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6768

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
No offense taken, opinions dont hurt me. 

I wish i didn't believe all these conspiracies, but, when i analyze the events and read articles from right wing, left wing and independant sources, whatever it is the government is saying rarely makes sense.  In alot of cases it would make sense if you could verify what they announce by reading the "top secret" documents.  Also notice the headline stories are always from an "unconfirmed source".  That is supposed to be credible??  And then when they do make a mistake in reporting on their unconfirmed report, they rescind the article, but they dont put it in headlines and most people dont read the 17th page snippit saying they madde a mistake.
They try to say what is in a top secret document but wont release the document.  Why are they telling me whats in the top secret document if its secret??  If you told me what it says why cant i see it to verify you aren't lying??
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|7137|Charlie One Alpha

PluggedValve wrote:

Most people are sheep that are easily herded into the coral.  The ones not as easily herded are called "unpatriotic" or "lunatic's" or "terrorist's".  That makes people less likely to stand up for their rights, because as we all know, American's dont want to be called "unpatriotic" even if it is for the most patriotic cause out there (freedom).

The irony is great in this, because the people claiming to "defend freedom" are the ones taking it away.
QFT.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6919|Northern California

FEOS wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

And Clinton was impeached for lying about his personal life....
No. He was impeached for lying while under a sworn oath about his personal life. That is, in fact, a crime.


IRONCHEF wrote:

Right now, our communications are compromised.  Today, yesterday, and tomorrow, you can count on not having privacy.  You can count on your domestic and international calls being monitored.  And it's because ATT and probably other telco's can freely (with total immunity) go about doing the NSA's bidding and spy on Americans!  Read that again..."ATT...(with total immunity) [can] go about..and spy on Americans!
Go read up on Title 18, US Code. Then check again to see if the sky is falling. It won't be.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yes, yes, I know, I know...it's "ONLY DONE" to calls made outside the country in or inside out...and it's only to catch "the terrorists."  And if you believe that, you seriously need a wake up call.  First of all, it's not even that productive.  The baddies are ALREADY here, IF there even is some planning going on.  And if there's planning going on for another disaster, it's obvious the baddies know about it and will, like their master OBL, will not be using ma bell to complete those calls.  They won't post on myspace their plans, and they won't be emailing each other over their blackberries.  So who then are they spying on?  You don't control a country with fear and lies if you're not afraid of it.  This is not a new concept and it's in full bloom here in "#1 USA!"
Well if you know where they are and how they work, please pass that to the FBI so they can round the fuckers up. You don't know either of those things, so this rant, while interesting, is utterly irrelevant.
So you're cool with the whole destruction of the Constitution thingy?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6839|'Murka

If there actually were destruction of the Constitution, then no, I wouldn't be cool with it. The bottom line is that everything done under FISA is completely in line with both the Constitution and other laws.

Whether there is a warrant or not, it doesn't change the restrictions on the intelligence community regarding collection on US Persons.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA
I just don't understand you liberals............YOU think Bush really gives a fuck about learning your Grandmas secret apple pie recipe ( and ya call me paranoid), and you  couldn't care less about the controversies that are OBVIOUSLY taking place within the Islamic ranks??????

You guys really need a priority check.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6919|Northern California

FEOS wrote:

If there actually were destruction of the Constitution, then no, I wouldn't be cool with it. The bottom line is that everything done under FISA is completely in line with both the Constitution and other laws.

Whether there is a warrant or not, it doesn't change the restrictions on the intelligence community regarding collection on US Persons.
They are not following the FISA guidelines..they've outright abandoned them making the semi-unconstitutional eavesdropping ability completely illegal.  Adding domestic spying (not the international communications) makes it 100%, completely unconstitutional.  Please show me where I and millions of Americans are wrong in believing that spying on our own is ok?



Lowing,
There are many disturbing things, I've listed one.  How is this a priority thing?  Need more Islamofascist threads or something you friggen retard?  NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY has the right to listen to MY phone calls, or your phone calls.  That should mean something to you.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

IRONCHEF wrote:

I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night
you lost me right there.
TeamOrange
Don't be that guy
+84|6739
Sort of like this topic: http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=85361
But as Turquoise said, we have gone in and out of Fascism, we just need to be aware
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6839|'Murka

IRONCHEF wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If there actually were destruction of the Constitution, then no, I wouldn't be cool with it. The bottom line is that everything done under FISA is completely in line with both the Constitution and other laws.

Whether there is a warrant or not, it doesn't change the restrictions on the intelligence community regarding collection on US Persons.
They are not following the FISA guidelines..they've outright abandoned them making the semi-unconstitutional eavesdropping ability completely illegal.  Adding domestic spying (not the international communications) makes it 100%, completely unconstitutional.  Please show me where I and millions of Americans are wrong in believing that spying on our own is ok?



Lowing,
There are many disturbing things, I've listed one.  How is this a priority thing?  Need more Islamofascist threads or something you friggen retard?  NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY has the right to listen to MY phone calls, or your phone calls.  That should mean something to you.
Let's go with this, from your linked article:

NYTimes wrote:

The bill, allows the government to eavesdrop on large bundles of foreign-based communications on its own authority so long as Americans are not the targets. A secret intelligence court, which traditionally has issued individual warrants before wiretapping began, would review the procedures set up by the executive branch only after the fact to determine whether there were abuses involving Americans.
This is essentially no different than the mandates from Titles 18 and 50 of US Code. I work with this kind of stuff daily. I have to certify yearly under Title 18 guidelines.

Nobody is listening to your phone calls unless you are calling Waziristan or some other terrorist-ridden hellhole and having long, drawn-out conversations about bombs, WMD, or Osama. It's not like there are banks of analysts plugging into every single domestic and international call made in the US.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night
you lost me right there.
lulz...

The govt can listen to me whenever they want for all I care.  Chances are they won't listen, since I do not give them a reason to.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7060|949

I thought V for Vendetta was a horrible movie.  I included that to throw off the idiots

We have argued this idea before - where to draw the line.

Former NSA intelligence agent Russell Tice wrote:

The freedom of the American people cannot be protected when our constitutional liberties are ignored and our nation has decayed into a police state.
Here is an interview with Mr. Tice (scroll down)

Background information regarding what Tice is alleging

As for oversight, as far as Russell Tice is concerned

Russell Tice wrote:

Ultimately it’s Congress’s responsibility to conduct oversight in these things. I don’t see it happening. Another reason is there was a certain roadblock that was sort of lifted that allowed me to do this, and I can’t explain, but I will to Congress if allowed to.
But the real problem is that there IS evidence that it is not being used solely to combat terrorism.

Meanwhile, the Washington Post is reporting that the NSA passed on records of intercepted email and phone calls to other government agencies including the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the CIA and the Department of Homeland Security. This news come on the heels of several other reports that the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force, military intelligence and local police departments have all been engaged in monitoring peaceful groups including Greenpeace, PETA - the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Catholic Worker, anti-war groups and even bicyclists in New York City. During the 1960s and 1970s, the military used NSA intercepts to maintain files on U.S. peace activists. It was this domestic surveillance that led Congress to intervene and pass Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 in order to prevent future such abuses. The statute permits domestic intelligence surveillance with the approval of a court order from the FISA court.
Who exactly is analyzing this intelligence?

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) revealed in May that 70 percent of the intelligence budget goes to contractors.

For all practical purposes, effective control of the NSA is with private corporations, which run its support and management functions. As the Washington Post's Walter Pincus reported last year, more than 70 percent of the staff of the Pentagon's newest intelligence unit, CIFA (Counterintelligence Field Activity), is made up of corporate contractors. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) lawyers revealed at a conference in May that contractors make up 51 percent of the staff in DIA offices. At the CIA, the situation is similar. Between 50 and 60 percent of the workforce of the CIA's most important directorate, the National Clandestine Service (NCS), responsible for the gathering of human intelligence, is composed of employees of for-profit corporations.
Even Congress wants to know about this outsourcing

The precedent is disturbing.

Just some food for thought.
motherdear
Member
+25|7079|Denmark/Minnesota (depends)

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

motherdear wrote:

okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.

sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
There is one big difference.  We aren't at war with a definable army.  We are in a war on terrorism.  It has always existed, and will never be gone.  We should also learn from history that once we give up certain rights, that the government isn't all that likely to rescind them.
i agree it's not a defined army, but since there is no system intelligence system of that army to tap into it is also very important to only act on already suspected persons (not saying that this is neccesarily the right thing to do)

but i really just think that you can not fight terror without proper intelligence, and the way i see it it's very hard to collect. but i just don't think that bush/the government got any reason to tap in on our daily calls without having a very good reason, and if they just randomly listened in on calls it would end up being a very expensive trick.

i think that it's very dangerous to remove rights like these, but i also believe that it's a very important tool in fighting them since a tap warrant can take more than a month to get (in which time it can be to late or valuable information could be lost) i'm not saying that it can't be abused and that it's not dangerous to let the government do this, but there is also a very big difference between n. korea, china etc in personel rights and the systems already set in place. 

and as you said terror will never die no, but i think that it can be feasible to use it at least for some time and in certain cases.

and to everybody else, i'm sorry if my post came out as flaming and that i should have rewritten some of it, but i can't dwell on past mistakes but only try to improve and explain myself better next time.

and by the way it's bullshit to say that i'm influence by mass media because i think that wire tapping can be okay in cases, sinces basicly all news agencies are against it and the war in Iraq. i have thought about it and it was the conclusion i came to, not because of mass media propaganda.

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