BF2S Forums Apparently Palestinian Babies Are Now Terrorists

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEuKnJ54DUI, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm, among many others. It's disgusting.

You are using individual behavior as if it were Israeli policy, which it is not. Palestinians use human shields as standard practice for fighting their war.

On an individual basis, the Israeli solders were wrong and will answer for it. Can the same be said about the Palestinians? Is Hamas launching and investigation into the human shield allegations levied against them? I don't think so.       There is a difference., and I bet you know it

I haven't said anywhere that this was Israeli policy. Hamas policy isn't Palestinian policy, either. The fact of the matter is that this conflict has guilty parties on both sides. Hamas isn't allowed to hide behind the official Palestinian government to escape accountability for their actions, and I don't think that individual and "official but unrecognised" behaviour within the IDF should be allowed to escape escape accountability by hiding behind official policy, either.

That's what grants Israel its international support. Its organisation. Not its actions. If the totality of the Palestinian people can be held accountable for the actions of the extremists, then why shouldn't the totality of the IDF be held accountable for the actions of the extremists therein, too?

The total of the Palestinian population is not held accountable for the actions of Hamas, they are victims of the actions of Hamas. So blame Hamas forthe civilian deaths not Israel.

Hamas action to use children as shields is the rule not the exception,  the same can not be said about Israel. If this was Israeli policy, the US would never support Israel plain and simple.

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

I haven't said anywhere that this was Israeli policy. Hamas policy isn't Palestinian policy, either. The fact of the matter is that this conflict has guilty parties on both sides. Hamas isn't allowed to hide behind the official Palestinian government to escape accountability for their actions, and I don't think that individual and "official but unrecognised" behaviour within the IDF should be allowed to escape escape accountability by hiding behind official policy, either.

That's what grants Israel its international support. Its organisation. Not its actions. If the totality of the Palestinian people can be held accountable for the actions of the extremists, then why shouldn't the totality of the IDF be held accountable for the actions of the extremists therein, too?

The total of the Palestinian population is not held accountable for the actions of Hamas, they are victims of the actions of Hamas. So blame Hamas for the civilian deaths not Israel.

Hamas action to use children as shields is the rule not the exception,  the same can not be said about Israel. If this was Israeli policy, the US would never support Israel plain and simple.

It seems to me like the totality of the Palestinian population is held accountable when they become not only acceptable casualties, but the majority of casualties, in the Israeli hunt for Hamas. I am absolutely against everything Hamas stands for, but that does not excuse the IDF and its actions to me, and in my eyes, the actions of IDF forces represent the IDF as a whole. When an Israeli soldier uses a kid as a shield, both the soldier and the army that handed him his gun and his orders are responsible. It's completely inexcusable when it happens repeatedly.

Hamas and its actions are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sway public opinion away from Israel. And you all are biting

Israel can ill afford to sit back and endure attack after attack after attack when those that are attacking are doing so from the cover of women and children. Hamas knows this. Hamas also knows Israel can not afford to let public opinion keep them impotent nor can it afford to loose the faith of public opinion. This is the goal of Hamas and what I read here, Hamas has won.

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

The total of the Palestinian population is not held accountable for the actions of Hamas, they are victims of the actions of Hamas. So blame Hamas for the civilian deaths not Israel.

Hamas action to use children as shields is the rule not the exception,  the same can not be said about Israel. If this was Israeli policy, the US would never support Israel plain and simple.

It seems to me like the totality of the Palestinian population is held accountable when they become not only acceptable casualties, but the majority of casualties, in the Israeli hunt for Hamas. I am absolutely against everything Hamas stands for, but that does not excuse the IDF and its actions to me, and in my eyes, the actions of IDF forces represent the IDF as a whole. When an Israeli soldier uses a kid as a shield, both the soldier and the army that handed him his gun and his orders are responsible. It's completely inexcusable when it happens repeatedly.

Hamas and its actions are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sway public opinion away from Israel. And you all are biting

Israel can ill afford to sit back and endure attack after attack after attack when those that are attacking are doing so from the cover of women and children. Hamas knows this. Hamas also knows Israel can not afford to let public opinion keep them impotent nor can it afford to loose the faith of public opinion. This is the goal of Hamas and what I read here, Hamas has won.

Conversely, reading what you just said, we may as well say that the Israeli extremists have won.

As long as Israel is "biting", as you put it, Israel deserves criticism. Not the people criticising the deaths of women and children. I guess, though, that it's easier for you to criticise the people you disagree with. What you're doing is akin to criticising people who distance themselves from authorities shooting hostages to get to the bad guys.

I do sincerely doubt, though, that it is your honest opinion is that if Hamas hides behind women and children, it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to kill those women and children to get to Hamas.

Last edited by mikkel (2008-03-02 09:21:12)

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

It seems to me like the totality of the Palestinian population is held accountable when they become not only acceptable casualties, but the majority of casualties, in the Israeli hunt for Hamas. I am absolutely against everything Hamas stands for, but that does not excuse the IDF and its actions to me, and in my eyes, the actions of IDF forces represent the IDF as a whole. When an Israeli soldier uses a kid as a shield, both the soldier and the army that handed him his gun and his orders are responsible. It's completely inexcusable when it happens repeatedly.

Hamas and its actions are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sway public opinion away from Israel. And you all are biting

Israel can ill afford to sit back and endure attack after attack after attack when those that are attacking are doing so from the cover of women and children. Hamas knows this. Hamas also knows Israel can not afford to let public opinion keep them impotent nor can it afford to loose the faith of public opinion. This is the goal of Hamas and what I read here, Hamas has won.

Conversely, reading what you just said, we may as well say that the Israeli extremists have won.

As long as Israel is "biting", as you put it, Israel deserves criticism. Not the people criticising the deaths of women and children. I guess, though, that it's easier for you to criticise the people you disagree with. What you're doing is akin to criticising people who distance themselves from authorities shooting hostages to get to the bad guys.

I do sincerely doubt, though, that it is your honest opinion is that if Hamas hides behind women and children, it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to kill those women and children to get to Hamas.

You should have little doubt that this is a widely accepted view. Terrorist hiding behind women and children shall be no excuse not to attack them.

It sucks. But it's reality.

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hamas and its actions are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sway public opinion away from Israel. And you all are biting

Israel can ill afford to sit back and endure attack after attack after attack when those that are attacking are doing so from the cover of women and children. Hamas knows this. Hamas also knows Israel can not afford to let public opinion keep them impotent nor can it afford to loose the faith of public opinion. This is the goal of Hamas and what I read here, Hamas has won.

Conversely, reading what you just said, we may as well say that the Israeli extremists have won.

As long as Israel is "biting", as you put it, Israel deserves criticism. Not the people criticising the deaths of women and children. I guess, though, that it's easier for you to criticise the people you disagree with. What you're doing is akin to criticising people who distance themselves from authorities shooting hostages to get to the bad guys.

I do sincerely doubt, though, that it is your honest opinion is that if Hamas hides behind women and children, it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to kill those women and children to get to Hamas.

It is a war zone, it is Hamas's responsibility to protect its citizens, not hide behind them while launching attacks. Israel WILL defend itself and rightfully so.

How convienient that would be for any rogue govt. to hide behind their citizens if they KNEW they could war in such a manner, knowing a counter attack would not materialize because of their "shields". I think it is even harder to believe that you would think any govt. would allow themselves to be taken advantage of in such a way.

The differences between a bomb and a bullet are practicality and risk. The Israeli have a right to defend themselves as much as the Palestinians have, but if Israel doesn't feel that the risk and impracticality of targeting only your enemies is worth saving a big number of civilian lives, then they're no better than Hamas.

It isn't Hamas' responsibility to protect the Palestinian people. That's a weak excuse to justify murdering civilians.

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

It seems to me like the totality of the Palestinian population is held accountable when they become not only acceptable casualties, but the majority of casualties, in the Israeli hunt for Hamas. I am absolutely against everything Hamas stands for, but that does not excuse the IDF and its actions to me, and in my eyes, the actions of IDF forces represent the IDF as a whole. When an Israeli soldier uses a kid as a shield, both the soldier and the army that handed him his gun and his orders are responsible. It's completely inexcusable when it happens repeatedly.

Hamas and its actions are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sway public opinion away from Israel. And you all are biting

Israel can ill afford to sit back and endure attack after attack after attack when those that are attacking are doing so from the cover of women and children. Hamas knows this. Hamas also knows Israel can not afford to let public opinion keep them impotent nor can it afford to loose the faith of public opinion. This is the goal of Hamas and what I read here, Hamas has won.

Conversely, reading what you just said, we may as well say that the Israeli extremists have won.

As long as Israel is "biting", as you put it, Israel deserves criticism. Not the people criticising the deaths of women and children. I guess, though, that it's easier for you to criticise the people you disagree with. What you're doing is akin to criticising people who distance themselves from authorities shooting hostages to get to the bad guys.

I do sincerely doubt, though, that it is your honest opinion is that if Hamas hides behind women and children, it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to kill those women and children to get to Hamas.

You cannot judge their actions; you know nothing about what you are talking about.  The Isralielites are fighting for their very existence.  If the Israel was not continuing to handle these things they way they are, they would probably wouldn't live long.  Israel is sorrounded by governments run by terrorist organizations, bent on the complete destruction of Israel, and attacks by these terrorists are a constant. 
  They have to DEFEND THEMSELVES!!!

Edited for grammar and sentence issues

Last edited by Deadmonkiefart (2008-03-03 23:34:32)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not exactly a great place to start a country then was it really?

Ask the UN.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Isn't it about time they moved somewhere a bit quieter where they won't cause so much trouble?

Not in line with the Abrahamic promise.

Dilbert_X wrote:

If they want to 'defend themselves' why don't they put up a big fence - on the green line not outside it - and figure out a missile defence system.

But if they put up fences, they're an evil terrorist state.
They're working on a close-in defense system...they're getting there. BTW, that's completely different than a missile defense system.

Dilbert_X wrote:

If Team America can knock out a satellite I would have thought a Katyusha would make an easy target - or is it useful to be seen to be under attack?

Team China can do it to...what's your point bringing the US into this?
A Katyusha is not a ballistic missile...so ballistic missile defenses don't work against it. You need close-in defense systems, which are still being improved. But good try at dripping cynicism, though.

Dilbert_X wrote:

If they stopped blockading Gaza and the West Bank - turning them both into larger versions of the Warsaw Ghetto - the Palestinians would have much less to gripe about and might be inclined to negotiate a reasonable settlement.

But the fence? Didn't you want a fence?

Regardless, if the Palestinians weren't blowing themselves up in Israeli buses and cafes, then maybe Israel wouldn't block off Gaza (the West Bank is still open). Do you not believe that the Palestinians should face consequences for their actions? You certainly believe Israel should...

Dilbert_X wrote:

As for the OP, Israel was founded by targeting civilians - they've basically continued the process since. Occasionally they get found out and backtrack a little eg the recent action in Lebanon.
The 'one Israeli is worth fifty Palestinians' line is the giveaway.

Israel was founded by the UN...so are you saying the UN (and UK because of the mandate) targeted civilians?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Ask the UN.

The Israel project had been run by the Zionists well before the UN even came into existence.

But the creation of Israel was approved by the UN. It is what gave the Zionists legitimacy.

Diblert_X wrote:

Not in line with the Abrahamic promise.

How does that have any possible relevance?
Since when were borders and international relations defined by non-sensical mumbo-jumbo written by stoned losers thousands of years ago?

Umm...because it's what the Zionists used to argue for the creation of Israel where it is and not in Europe. So sure...completely irrelevant to your comment about them moving somewhere else.

Dilbert_X wrote:

A Katyusha is not a ballistic missile...so ballistic missile defenses don't work against it. You need close-in defense systems, which are still being improved. But good try at dripping cynicism, though.

I didn't say it was a ballistic missile Durwood, I didn't say a satellite was a ballistic missile either - you jumped to that conclusion.
There are plenty of  anti-non-ballistic-missile defense systems about. Maybe you could look them up if your head weren't up your own arse.

Got some sand in your vagina or something? Calm down.
I was pointing out that they are completely different targets and completely different systems are needed to counter them. You are the one who made the connection between the two by saying the ability to do one should make the ability to do the other one simple.

And fuck right the hell off if you're going to make comments like that...Durwood.

Dilbert_X wrote:

But the fence? Didn't you want a fence?

I don't have a problem with a fence between Israel and Palestine - I do have a problem with Israel controlling Palestine's land borders, sea borders and airspace, littering military checkpoints and illegal settlements through Palestine etc.
Any fence needs to be on the internationally recognised border, not many miles inside Palestine stealing yet more land.

The fence around Gaza isn't contested...it's the West Bank area. And Palestinians are free to move to and from the West Bank because they're not launching rockets or suicide bombers from there right now. But not so much with Gaza. Cause...effect.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Israel was founded by the UN...so are you saying the UN (and UK because of the mandate) targeted civilians?

No the Israeli terrorist gangs, Irgun, Stern etc did that bit, plus wiping out a good number of British troops who effectively WERE the UN.

60 years ago. What relevance does that have today?

Last edited by FEOS (2008-03-04 02:18:32)

FEOS wrote:

60 years ago. What relevance does that have today?

Its one of those things, if we said the Israelis had a right to be there because it was their land long long ago, its deemed stupid and irrelevant.
However the anti-Israel crew are free to use the past actions as they see fit.

Its funny though that if a civilian is killed because they were caught in the area of an explosions aimed at a rocket launching site, the Israelis are deemed murderers. However if a Kassam or Katyusha rocket kills an Israeli, there isn't a cheep.

Some of the links about the IDF targetting children - words from IDF soldiers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ju … lestinians
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel

And I found the stats I was after - which show the IDF were shooting Palestinian kids in the head deliberately.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1028210.stm

Here are a few more - some of the links could be a bit flaky.
BT'Selem testimonies Feb 2002,'IDF shoots Palestinian woman in labor while on her way to hospital', February 2002 http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimon … _Hayek.asp

Guardian 20 May 2004 , ‘Palestinian doctors despair at rising toll of children shot dead by army snipers’, http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4928 … 52,00.html

Guardian 28 Jun 2005, ‘Snipers with children in their sights’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ … 62,00.html

BT’Selem eyewitness testimonies – IDF soldier shoots and kills a 14 year-old boy playing with his friends, in Tubas, north of Nablus, January 2005 - witness Abu Muhsen - http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimon … Muhsen.asp

BT'Selem eyewitness testimonies - IDF soldier shoots and kills a 14 year-old boy playing with his friends, in Tubas, north of Nablus, January 2005 - witness Daragmeh - http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimon … aghmeh.asp

Summerfield, Derek ‘Palestine – The Assault on Health and Other War Crimes’, British Medical Journal 16 October 2004 http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7471/924?

Guardian 6 Sep 2005, ‘Israeli troops say they were given shoot-to-kill order’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international … 76,00.html cited by Summerfield,

Israeli soldiers confirm the shoot-to-kill policy
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7518/699?

Guardian 6 Sep 2005, ‘Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity’, http://www.guardian.co.uk/international … 55,00.html

Breaking the Silence , ‘Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories’
http://www.shovrimshtika.org/publications_e.asp

Summerfield, Derek ‘Palestine – The Assault on Health and Other War Crimes’, British Medical Journal October 2004 http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7471/924?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-03-04 05:02:27)

In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand.

The soldiers were brought into contact with the Guardian with the assistance of Breaking the Silence, a pressure group of former soldiers who want the Israeli public to confront the reality of army activities. The group insisted on anonymity of its witnesses to protect the soldiers from persecution and prosecution.

Although those speaking out are a tiny proportion, their testimonies reflect a widespread culture of impunity, according to Sarit Michaeli of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is a war zone, it is Hamas's responsibility to protect its citizens, not hide behind them while launching attacks. Israel WILL defend itself and rightfully so.

How convienient that would be for any rogue govt. to hide behind their citizens if they KNEW they could war in such a manner, knowing a counter attack would not materialize because of their "shields". I think it is even harder to believe that you would think any govt. would allow themselves to be taken advantage of in such a way.

The differences between a bomb and a bullet are practicality and risk. The Israeli have a right to defend themselves as much as the Palestinians have, but if Israel doesn't feel that the risk and impracticality of targeting only your enemies is worth saving a big number of civilian lives, then they're no better than Hamas.

It isn't Hamas' responsibility to protect the Palestinian people. That's a weak excuse to justify murdering civilians.

It isn't???..............I thought protection of the people is EXACTLY the govt. responsibility.

The extent of the hatred of Israel on here blows me away..........You have set rules for them that you yourselves could not or would not uphold.

First they are not allowed to shoot back if their enemy is hiding amoungst civilians. ( pretty neat if you are the enemy) and do you condemn Hamas for such practices, hell no, you condemn Israel for not sitting there and taking it.



Israel started a war because they did not let the whole ME attack them first after cutting off their trade routes, and water ways, massed armies along Israels border and announced it was going to destroy Israel.

I can not be the only one here that smells the bullshit.

Hamas is not the Palestinian government. If you honestly suggest that it's Hamas' responsibility to keep people safe when Israel retaliates, then surely you must also think that it was the responsibility of the Taleban to keep the Afghan people safe during the invasion of Afghanistan. It's such a intellectually dishonest thing to base your defence on.

I don't think I've seen anyone here condoning Hamas' methods. In fact, earlier in this thread, I told you that I absolutely despise everything they stand for, but as per usual, you apparently chose to ignore that and claim that everyone is okay with Hamas. Is it because you feel better when you can baselessly make absurd claims about the people who disagree with you, or is it that you don't feel confident enough in your opinion without trying your best to make yourself seem moderate?

What Hamas doing is horrible, and what Israel does in response is equally horrible. Two wrongs does not make a right - That's the kind of mentality you have to leave behind if you want to be a part of a civilised society. The Israeli and the Palestinians don't seem to realise that, and look at where it got them.

Last edited by mikkel (2008-03-04 08:45:12)