BF2S Forums Apparently Palestinian Babies Are Now Terrorists

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

The differences between a bomb and a bullet are practicality and risk. The Israeli have a right to defend themselves as much as the Palestinians have, but if Israel doesn't feel that the risk and impracticality of targeting only your enemies is worth saving a big number of civilian lives, then they're no better than Hamas.

It isn't Hamas' responsibility to protect the Palestinian people. That's a weak excuse to justify murdering civilians.

It isn't???..............I thought protection of the people is EXACTLY the govt. responsibility.

The extent of the hatred of Israel on here blows me away..........You have set rules for them that you yourselves could not or would not uphold.

First they are not allowed to shoot back if their enemy is hiding amoungst civilians. ( pretty neat if you are the enemy) and do you condemn Hamas for such practices, hell no, you condemn Israel for not sitting there and taking it.



Israel started a war because they did not let the whole ME attack them first after cutting off their trade routes, and water ways, massed armies along Israels border and announced it was going to destroy Israel.

I can not be the only one here that smells the bullshit.

Hamas is not the Palestinian government. If you honestly suggest that it's Hamas' responsibility to keep people safe when Israel retaliates, then surely you must also think that it was the responsibility of the Taleban to keep the Afghan people safe during the invasion of Afghanistan. It's such a intellectually dishonest thing to base your defence on.

I don't think I've seen anyone here condoning Hamas' methods. In fact, earlier in this thread, I told you that I absolutely despise everything they stand for, but as per usual, you apparently chose to ignore that and claim that everyone is okay with Hamas. Is it because you feel better when you can baselessly make absurd claims about the people who disagree with you, or is it that you don't feel confident enough in your opinion without trying your best to make yourself seem moderate?

What Hamas doing is horrible, and what Israel does in response is equally horrible. Two wrongs does not make a right - That's the kind of mentality you have to leave behind if you want to be a part of a civilised society. The Israeli and the Palestinians don't seem to realise that, and look at where it got them.

I was under the impression that Hamas was voted in as the offical Palestinian govt. Am I wrong about that??

YOu are telling me that Hamas' actions are wrong. Great, but you fail to acknowledge that someone has to deal with those actions, and it is Israel that is left dealing with it. Do not blame Isarel for their retalitory actions, or their hitting back harder than they got hit. It is war, you are supposed to bring your enemies t otheir knees. Do not get pissed at Israel for actually having the nerve to try and win this war.

FEOS wrote:

That isn't even close to what that article said, Dilbert.

Of 73 Children killed, 60 were upper body hits, 31 headshots. You do the analysis.

In light of this article, I'd like to pose some moral questions:

Haaretz wrote:

The army also said the rules of engagement prohibit intentional firing on civilians, however in cases where a source of fire was clearly identified as coming from a home, permission was given to open fire without determining whether civilians were also present.

If someone is firing from a home, should the IDF not return fire, since civilians could be killed? And what would your solution be?

Haaretz wrote:

In one case the commander of the brigade reconnaissance force saw a boy of about 10 sent to bring a weapon from a dead gunman after another gunman was killed trying to retrieve it. The commander ordered his men not to fire and the boy delivered the weapon to other armed men.

Would the army be justified in shooting the kid, since he was helping the gunmen? And is this a violation of international conventions by Hamas(using child soldiers)? Would the child, if he was indeed shot, be counted as a militant, or a civilian? I realize that this opens a whole new can of worms, since every child killed could be claimed to have helped the militants. It's a matter of who you trust. So here goes:

Who do you trust more? The official Israeli sources, or official Palestinian sources? We all read in the articles "IDF spokesman said...", "Israeli spokesman said...", "Hamas spokesman said...", "Palestinian doctors said...". Do you trust them at all? The faceless spokesmen and doctors and witnesses? Are they telling the truth, or are both sides lying through their teeth, trying to look good while discrediting their enemies?


Edit: Spelling

Last edited by Sorcerer0513 (2008-03-05 01:50:08)

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Hamas is not the Palestinian government. If you honestly suggest that it's Hamas' responsibility to keep people safe when Israel retaliates, then surely you must also think that it was the responsibility of the Taleban to keep the Afghan people safe during the invasion of Afghanistan. It's such a intellectually dishonest thing to base your defence on.

I don't think I've seen anyone here condoning Hamas' methods. In fact, earlier in this thread, I told you that I absolutely despise everything they stand for, but as per usual, you apparently chose to ignore that and claim that everyone is okay with Hamas. Is it because you feel better when you can baselessly make absurd claims about the people who disagree with you, or is it that you don't feel confident enough in your opinion without trying your best to make yourself seem moderate?

What Hamas doing is horrible, and what Israel does in response is equally horrible. Two wrongs does not make a right - That's the kind of mentality you have to leave behind if you want to be a part of a civilised society. The Israeli and the Palestinians don't seem to realise that, and look at where it got them.

I was under the impression that Hamas was voted in as the offical Palestinian govt. Am I wrong about that??

YOu are telling me that Hamas' actions are wrong. Great, but you fail to acknowledge that someone has to deal with those actions, and it is Israel that is left dealing with it. Do not blame Isarel for their retalitory actions, or their hitting back harder than they got hit. It is war, you are supposed to bring your enemies t otheir knees. Do not get pissed at Israel for actually having the nerve to try and win this war.

The political party, yes. Not the militant wing. Not that I like either, but a distinction is made internationally. You know, thinking about it, I'll concede that they're all bastards. If they're considered a terrorist organisation by Israel, though, I don't see how you can claim that Israel can legitimately expect this terrorist organisation, known to hide behind civilians, to protect these very same civilians from attack. That's a carte blance for killing as many innocent people as you want.

No. I don't fail to recognise that Israel has to deal with attacks. I haven't anywhere claimed that Israel shouldn't retaliate attacks. If you're done fabricating these absurd claims, let's move back to what we were discussing. Knowingly and repeatedly killing scores of civilians to get to a handful of your enemies, that's not war. That's a crime against humanity. Retaliation in this context is not the "wrong". Killing civilians to get back at people for targeting civilians, however, is.

Israel is not targeting civilians, they are attacking the areas where attacks into Israel is come from. They are fair and legit targets. If Hamas movesd women and children into those areas, the nthe responsibility is Hamas' NOT Israels

Dilbert_X wrote:

Or you could actually read the text of the article. There is nothing in that article that shows IDF were aiming at anyone's head. The rubber bullets that they fire are wildly inaccurate past 70m. And they were talking about distances of up to 1km. You do the analysis.

If they are so wildly inaccurate how come such a high proportion of hits to the head?
The article doesn't even say they used solely rubber bullets, if you can call them that.
Members of the IDF are on the record stating they have been ordered to target civilians so I don't see what argument you have.

The argument is the content of the article is not as you characterized it. You cherry-picked words out of the article, absent their surrounding context and drew an inaccurate conclusion that you then posted here. If you read the article in its entirety without some preconceived notion of which side it will back, it's fairly clear that 1) the IDF weren't ordered to target any civilians who were not threatening them (at that point, they lose protected status under international law and become combatants; and 2) that the IDF weren't targeting children's heads, as you claimed in your post.

Dilbert wrote:

And I found the stats I was after - which show the IDF were shooting Palestinian kids in the head deliberately.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1028210.stm

Dilbert's source wrote:

The soldiers fire rubber-coated metal bullets into the crowd in response to stones. They have an accurate range of 70 metres and can kill. After 70 metres, the bullets spread randomly.

Fairly unambiguous.

Dilbert's source wrote:

Israel's army says its gunmen aim at the lower half of protesters' bodies and that they don't generally aim for children. But the statistics tell another tale. UN figures show that out of 1992 Palestinians that have been killed, 73 were children. That's roughly a third. Palestinian hospital figures show that 60 of them were hit in the upper body. 31 in the head, the others in the neck and chest. The Israelis insist it's not deliberate.

Think about it for a minute. If the shooters are aiming at the lower half of protestors' bodies, where would a child's upper body/head be? Right in the center of mass of the shot. Add in the inaccuracies beyond 70 meters, and the stats quoted aren't at all surprising. It certainly doesn't say or even imply that "the IDF were shooting Palestinian kids in the head deliberately". That is purely your conclusion, and it's easily countered by the facts stated in the article you provided as a source.

Strange that nobody addressed why Palestinian parents are letting their kids participate in activities that they know can get them hurt or killed, mixed in with adults.

Last edited by FEOS (2008-03-05 05:09:24)

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

I was under the impression that Hamas was voted in as the offical Palestinian govt. Am I wrong about that??

YOu are telling me that Hamas' actions are wrong. Great, but you fail to acknowledge that someone has to deal with those actions, and it is Israel that is left dealing with it. Do not blame Isarel for their retalitory actions, or their hitting back harder than they got hit. It is war, you are supposed to bring your enemies t otheir knees. Do not get pissed at Israel for actually having the nerve to try and win this war.

The political party, yes. Not the militant wing. Not that I like either, but a distinction is made internationally. You know, thinking about it, I'll concede that they're all bastards. If they're considered a terrorist organisation by Israel, though, I don't see how you can claim that Israel can legitimately expect this terrorist organisation, known to hide behind civilians, to protect these very same civilians from attack. That's a carte blance for killing as many innocent people as you want.

No. I don't fail to recognise that Israel has to deal with attacks. I haven't anywhere claimed that Israel shouldn't retaliate attacks. If you're done fabricating these absurd claims, let's move back to what we were discussing. Knowingly and repeatedly killing scores of civilians to get to a handful of your enemies, that's not war. That's a crime against humanity. Retaliation in this context is not the "wrong". Killing civilians to get back at people for targeting civilians, however, is.

Israel is not targeting civilians, they are attacking the areas where attacks into Israel is come from. They are fair and legit targets. If Hamas movesd women and children into those areas, the nthe responsibility is Hamas' NOT Israels

If your mentality is that it's okay to say "We're going to bomb them, and if there are innocent women and children there, that's just too bad", then we're never going to get anywhere with this debate.