BF2S Forums Why do you care so much about Israel/Palestine?

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...and a lot of the blame can be laid at Britain's feet for helping to create Israel.  America and France can be blamed for arming Israel.

...and the Palestinians can be blamed for apparently being insane enough to celebrate when an asshole attacks a school.

Lol!

Do you honestly believe that?

Are you familiar with how the creation of Israel came about? Where is the blame to be placed with the British (throughout the early days of Israel - the British have a lot to answer for with regards to arming the Israelis with nuclear weapons)?

I assume you're making the typical mistake of not properly knowing about the Balfour declaration, it's origins and the British management of immigration to Palestine? Is that the case?

No need to get defensive.

"Between the 13th and 19th centuries, Jewish immigration was generally spurred by religious persecution. The expulsion of Jews from England (1290) France (1391), Austria (1421) and Spain (the Alhambra decree 1492) led to waves of Jews moving to Israel.

By the mid-19th century, the Land of Israel was a part of the Ottoman Empire and a province of Syria, populated mostly by Muslim and Christian Arabs, as well as Jews, Greeks, Druze, Bedouins and other minorities. By 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group (and by 1890 an absolute majority) in Jerusalem (although as a whole, the Jewish population made up far less than 10% of the total)."

Then there was this...

"British desire to gain Jewish support in the fight against Germany, and support for Zionism from Prime-Minister Lloyd-George  led to foreign minister, Lord Balfour making the Balfour Declaration of 1917. This stated that the British Government 'view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people'...'it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine'.

The British invasion force, led by General Allenby, included a force of Jewish volunteers (mostly Zionists), known as the Jewish Legion."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

When I read things like this, then what else is there to conclude?


Explain to me how this doesn't at least put part of the blame on England (and much of Europe overall for that matter).

I'm not being defensive. I am well aware that much of Britains past involvement in international affairs has been reprehensible. This is just not one of them. I get pissed off by it, because everyone who skims a wiki article on Israel concludes it is Britains fault, when if you actually look at the facts, Britain did more to try and resolve the problem than anyone else and were thwarted by an insidious bunch of highly unpleasant terrorist immigrants.

The Balfour declaration was a result of a league of nations conference. It was a pretty much unilateral agreement that there needed to be a homeland for Jews. Britain was the governing body of Palestine, where it had been decided (against the wishes of the British, who had tried to get the Zionist agency to agree to move somewhere else, including Uganda) the Jewish national home would be. Britain just got stuck with the tricky task of managing the immigration properly.

Balfour Declaration wrote:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

The British were dedicated to their responsibilities to the Arab populace there. Everyone seems to forget that Britain had a fairly good relationship with the Arabs in the region prior to this - remember T.E. Lawrence?

Jewish immigration to Palestine soon grew out of control and the Jewish immigrants were (as is cited in numerous reports) pursuing a campaign of deliberate agency sponsored (funded illegally) economic and social deprivation.

The British imposed strict restrictions upon Jewish immigration in the White paper of 1939, which also included plans for the establishment of an Arab state across the whole of Palestine, due to an Arab majority - which is how democracy works.

The Jewish immigrants responded badly to any attempt by the British to stem immigration and began a sustained terror campaign lasting decades.

At what stage did the British do anything wrong? At what stage is anyone other than the Jewish immigrants, deliberately immigrating to a country (and then stealing it through terrorist means) with no interest in integration or even peaceful coexistence with the indigenous populace, to blame?

Turquoise wrote:

Well, first things first.  Jews never should've been kicked out of Europe in the first place.  Europe's inability to accept the Jewish community on its own soil back then started this need for immigration to a homeland.

Second, while I agree with you that Jewish fanatics were a large portion of this problem, I guess Britain should have established martial law and ruled the area with an iron fist.  The terrorists could have been found and executed publicly to make examples out of them.

There were periods when the British did just that.

That doesn't work against terrorism it only furthers the cause. Which is why the whole concept on a war on terror is futile. It's been demonstrated throughout history, this being a prime example, that it is simply counter productive.

They weren't kicked out of Europe, what part of the not prejudicing the rights and political status of Jews in any other country did you not get?

ShowMeTheMonkey wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, first things first.  Jews never should've been kicked out of Europe in the first place.  Europe's inability to accept the Jewish community on its own soil back then started this need for immigration to a homeland.

Second, while I agree with you that Jewish fanatics were a large portion of this problem, I guess Britain should have established martial law and ruled the area with an iron fist.  The terrorists could have been found and executed publicly to make examples out of them.

I don't think that has ever worked when you're dealing with people of different cultures. Making "examples" means making martyrs.

It has worked. But only combined with finding common ground and taking steps towards a lasting peace. The Norman conquest is a decent example.

ShowMeTheMonkey wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, first things first.  Jews never should've been kicked out of Europe in the first place.  Europe's inability to accept the Jewish community on its own soil back then started this need for immigration to a homeland.

Second, while I agree with you that Jewish fanatics were a large portion of this problem, I guess Britain should have established martial law and ruled the area with an iron fist.  The terrorists could have been found and executed publicly to make examples out of them.

I don't think that has ever worked when you're dealing with people of different cultures. Making "examples" means making martyrs.

Fair point, but I could argue that only sympathizers to said terrorists would respond to them as martyrs, thereby determining who the expendable among the population are.  If you want order, you can't have terrorist sympathizers among your populace, so if someone chooses to side with extremism as a result of an execution, then that's probably someone who would have made the change later in life anyway.

Most people would simply get the message that you don't fuck with us and would not become extremist themselves.

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

liberals - "palestine rocks"

conservatives - "israel rocks"

Me - I just want to understand why they are killing each other and to have the violence stop.

What a mature an informed opinion of the situation, Ajax.

Turquoise wrote:

Spark wrote:

ATG wrote:

Then you never will.

What, why a person feels an intimate connection to a country half a world away just because of shared religion?

That means I should be defending China, Vietnam or the Vatican with my life.

Even though I generally defend Israel, I would have to agree with you.

I'm not sure if Poseidon or ATG realize that the same logic they are using is also used by Muslims in their defense of Palestine.

Personally, I'm an Atheist, so I guess I have it easier than most people, since I don't really feel a connection to any culture other than maybe America.  I'm more of a "appreciate people as individuals" kind of person.  There are both idiots and cool people among every group, so that's why I don't normally connect with any one group.

There is a reason we have identity politics. It doesn't matter if it's religion, sex, race, etc. It's natural and there is a reason campaigns and policies are based around it. People are generally more sympathetic to issues they can relate to. Agree with it or not, it will always be there.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

The creation of Israel is history.  Israel is there and it has a right to exist.  What matters now is achieving a peace deal to stop the killings on both sides and the miserable living conditions of the Palestinians.  That's why we care.  And I personally feel a responsibility since half of my family is Jewish and I don't like what Israel is doing, despite the Palestinian militants being wackos.

Serge, I agree with this post totally, but please remember all the posts arguing over who was there first, who shot first, who deserves the land and on and on and on. I have seen how passionate you are and hopefully you have come full circle and understand that what happened 2,000 years ago doesnt really matter that much any more. Its historical but nothing more. People need to focus on the here and now.

If we are going to bicker over Palestinians getting their land back, then there should be a thousands threads dedicated to the American Indians getting their land back. The white European took over a huge piece of land (North America) in almost a blink of an eye. Is it going to change now? No, so we have to move forward.

I feel the reason there are so many threads on this is because a few guys here are very, very passionate about it and you can easily get two sides all riled up about it. When some guys call Israel a terrorist state then you will get a backlash....and when a Palestinian group goes in and kills a bunch of kids and the society celebrates it as a heroic act....that will stir up more emotions. I do feel that the Palestinian/ Israel posts are over kill here because it takes away from some of the other bullshit happening around the world.

Bottom line, no one is going to stop fighting over this land, they have been fighting for thousands of years, building temples and mosques and churches on top of one another. Muslims took control, Crusades took it back and back and forth we go, year after year......How is that going to stop. The only way it will stop is if religions and cultures start acting civilized and act like they preach. Peace and good will. It will only happen if people decide to grow up and look past the color of your skin, your religious belief or your history. They need to understand that they are killing brothers and sisters and in this conflict, that is more true than not.

I never said Israel has no right to their own land.  Whether it was a mistake or not to put it on that specific land is a thing of the past and we should argue about the possible solution for the today's conflict.  And I DO think Israel behaves just like the terrorists when they kill innocent people with no regard for civilians lives.  I DO condemn the extremists that killed those kids in Israel.  I never celebrated these coward attacks as heroic acts.  I can't take responsibility for the thoughts of other people here though.

usmarine wrote:

I don't.  BRING BACK THE ISRAEL/PALS STICKY FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What have I created?!

Argh!

usmarine wrote:

Spark wrote:

usmarine wrote:

I don't.  BRING BACK THE ISRAEL/PALS STICKY FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What have I created?!

Argh!

do you not agree?

that sticky made this section SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better.

I agree completely.

I never intended to make this another 10-page thread inthemaking.

Subsections would be better but that idea died off sadly.

Ummmm...I dont, they can bomb each other to death for all i care

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

There is a reason we have identity politics. It doesn't matter if it's religion, sex, race, etc. It's natural and there is a reason campaigns and policies are based around it. People are generally more sympathetic to issues they can relate to. Agree with it or not, it will always be there.

For sure, but it remains a mostly illogical practice.

Although, I would argue class identity politics actually make more sense than the others, since class is the most universally defining division in the world.  In most countries, there is a continual conflict between the interests of the working class and the elite rich.

Shit, argue what you will.. it's not going anywhere. People take care of and are concerned with their own kind. It's been around since before we were walking upright. (I just watched the opening scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey ..lulz)

Bertster7 wrote:

Created by a minority in a country they had no legitimate jurisdiction over, without the consent of the majority and against the explicit ruling of the governing body of the state by means of terrorism and systematic economic deprivement financed illegally with corporate funds without any consultation of shareholders of those corporations.

A state that has persistently defied the UN, something other countries have been invaded and had their governments deposed for, and has an abhorrent apartheid system in place and denies those who they drove from their homes their basic rights, enshrined in multiple (I think it's 7) differing bodies of international law.