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2008-03-09 04:05:45
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6649|Brisneyland
Bush vetos anti torture methods

US President George W. Bush has vetoed legislation passed by Congress that would have banned the CIA from using waterboarding and other controversial interrogation techniques.
As a rule I am opposed to allowing govt organisations the right to torture any humans. Then trying to think about it further, I thought that information from that torture may save lives if an attack was imminent. I also thought that people that are tortured often admit to any old shit just so they will stop being tortured, so you may doubt the validity of the info.

So at the moment, I am heading towards govt sponsored torture being inappropriate, however I think thay there may be circumstances in which it may provide evidence that could save lives....

What do you think??

Edit: I realise that there was a topic on waterboarding a while ago, but this seemed relevant as the veto happened recently. I would hate to be accused of necroposting.

Last edited by Burwhale the Avenger (2008-03-09 04:07:10)

2008-03-09 04:14:40
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

Well at least we don't have to put up with that retard anymore. Then this legislation will actually get passed.
2008-03-09 04:37:12
mikkel
Member
+383|7028
After all the controversy regarding bad US intelligence, this guy still feels the need to veto the better judgement of congress and support a legal basis for drowning people until they tell intelligence officials what they want to hear? Torture and misinformation. What a great legacy to leave as a leader of the "free world".
2008-03-09 04:49:38
hurricane2oo5
Do One Ya Mug !!!
+176|7191|mansfield
whats waterboarding?
2008-03-09 04:52:25
Nakamp
Member
+25|6621|Czech Republic

hurricane2oo5 wrote:

whats waterboarding?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
2008-03-09 05:15:20
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7078|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

Bush vetos anti torture methods

US President George W. Bush has vetoed legislation passed by Congress that would have banned the CIA from using waterboarding and other controversial interrogation techniques.
As a rule I am opposed to allowing govt organisations the right to torture any humans. Then trying to think about it further, I thought that information from that torture may save lives if an attack was imminent. I also thought that people that are tortured often admit to any old shit just so they will stop being tortured, so you may doubt the validity of the info.

So at the moment, I am heading towards govt sponsored torture being inappropriate, however I think thay there may be circumstances in which it may provide evidence that could save lives....

What do you think??

Edit: I realise that there was a topic on waterboarding a while ago, but this seemed relevant as the veto happened recently. I would hate to be accused of necroposting.
I am pretty sure any information gained through this would also be detectable for truth or lies.
2008-03-09 06:17:29
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7256|Grapevine, TX

hurricane2oo5 wrote:

whats water boarding?
Gargle, gargle.

Last edited by (T)eflon(S)hadow (2008-03-09 08:22:54)

2008-03-09 06:30:39
zeidmaan
Member
+234|6842|Vienna

Well one hand you have to admit that to help the war on terror the USA has to be at least perceived as a country willing to make you life miserable if you dont talk. Not all Al Q are hard core mother fuckers who laugh at the idea of waterboarding. Im not saying that torturing is OK but if someone gets caught he needs to shit his pants at what will happen to him even before any interrogator even asks him something or threatens him.
If I did some stuff and got caught, I would start talking my ass off on the plane on the way to gitmo
But if I though I'm going to a 4 star hotel where no one is going to look at me the wrong way, I would shut my mouth out of the fear of incriminating my self further. 
So torturing is bad BUT all this shenanigans around it should have been done behind closed doors and not through newspapers...
2008-03-09 09:25:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina
I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
2008-03-09 09:28:39
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7048|London, England
Yeah, I really don't care what you guys do to these guys. The U.S has so many checks and balances, It would seem that most people tortured deserve it. Unlike say, Russia or China, who would probably just round up all males and then probably just shoot them
2008-03-09 09:30:29
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
2008-03-09 09:31:44
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
That's my point though.  Instead of outlawing torture, why not just spend more effort on preventing innocent people from being tortured?  A law should be passed that requires conviction before torture.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-03-09 09:32:07)

2008-03-09 09:38:44
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
And three proven AQ players in 7 years is the equivalent of running around waterboarding anyone who looks askance at the US.

Actually, Bertster, it is EXACTLY what has happened.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-03-09 09:39:30
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
That's my point though.  Instead of outlawing torture, why not just spend more effort on preventing innocent people from being tortured?  A law should be passed that requires conviction before torture.
Why not just totally outlaw it? It's against international law. It's against the Geneva convention. It's outlawed in all other 1st world countries.

You know why?

Because it is a revolting and barbaric practice.
2008-03-09 09:41:33
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.

So I guess this is one of the rare moments where I agree with Bush.
Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
And three proven AQ players in 7 years is the equivalent of running around waterboarding anyone who looks askance at the US.

Actually, Bertster, it is EXACTLY what has happened.
Bollocks it is.

Several of the Gitmo inmates who have been released have released statements about how they were subjected to various forms of torture.
2008-03-09 09:42:19
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
That's my point though.  Instead of outlawing torture, why not just spend more effort on preventing innocent people from being tortured?  A law should be passed that requires conviction before torture.
Why not just totally outlaw it? It's against international law. It's against the Geneva convention. It's outlawed in all other 1st world countries.

You know why?

Because it is a revolting and barbaric practice.
Revolting, maybe....   Useful, definitely.

I hate to say it, but I think the relevance of international law is beginning to wane.  Like it or not, America and several other countries (like China and Russia) have the power to disregard international law when they feel like it.

The only laws that really have any power are ones that can be enforced by large military forces.
2008-03-09 09:44:03
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6879|Cambridge, UK

Torture is never justified.

Never do anything you would not be happy (or at least not outraged) being done to you, your family/friends and/or countrymen

If your pro your government doing it to gain information in the war against terror etc... you've got to accept that its just as ok for the other side to use it to get info for what they see as there just reasons.

Last edited by KylieTastic (2008-03-09 09:45:25)

2008-03-09 09:48:19
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


That's my point though.  Instead of outlawing torture, why not just spend more effort on preventing innocent people from being tortured?  A law should be passed that requires conviction before torture.
Why not just totally outlaw it? It's against international law. It's against the Geneva convention. It's outlawed in all other 1st world countries.

You know why?

Because it is a revolting and barbaric practice.
Revolting, maybe....   Useful, definitely.

I hate to say it, but I think the relevance of international law is beginning to wane.  Like it or not, America and several other countries (like China and Russia) have the power to disregard international law when they feel like it.

The only laws that really have any power are ones that can be enforced by large military forces.
Most countries have the power to disregard international law. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.
2008-03-09 09:48:55
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Because of course that's what has been happening. It's not like loads of the inmates of Gitmo have been found to be innocent and then released or anything. Oh, wait a minute......
And three proven AQ players in 7 years is the equivalent of running around waterboarding anyone who looks askance at the US.

Actually, Bertster, it is EXACTLY what has happened.
Bollocks it is.

Several of the Gitmo inmates who have been released have released statements about how they were subjected to various forms of torture.
Because they have no ulterior motive for claiming torture...like international pressure to release their jihad brothers.

The fact that you would believe what they have to say without applying any critical thought to it simply because it supports your preconceived notion of what is or is not happening is either sad or laughable...or both.

The only proven "torture" that has happened outside of the Abu Ghraib incident was the waterboarding of three internationally-recognized AQ major players. Three. In seven years. And not done by the military, but by the CIA. No proven incidents of torture at Club Gitmo, which is run by the military.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-03-09 09:51:25
The Flying Finn
Member
+2|6341

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.
The only problem That see is most of the time we don't know are the guilty.You could be innocent but if you torture them they will say anything that you want.Because they will want for the pain to stop.
That the way I see it.
2008-03-09 09:52:50
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Why not just totally outlaw it? It's against international law. It's against the Geneva convention. It's outlawed in all other 1st world countries.

You know why?

Because it is a revolting and barbaric practice.
Revolting, maybe....   Useful, definitely.

I hate to say it, but I think the relevance of international law is beginning to wane.  Like it or not, America and several other countries (like China and Russia) have the power to disregard international law when they feel like it.

The only laws that really have any power are ones that can be enforced by large military forces.
Most countries have the power to disregard international law. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.
*shrugs* In many cases, I would agree, but again, what is the relevance of a law that isn't consistently enforced?  Hell, look at America's border security.   It may be illegal for people to jump our border, but a lack of enforcement has basically negated the laws against it.
2008-03-09 09:54:02
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

The Flying Finn wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I care less about whether or not we torture people and more about who we torture.  As long as we make sure we are only torturing guilty people, I'm ok with it.
The only problem That see is most of the time we don't know are the guilty.You could be innocent but if you torture them they will say anything that you want.Because they will want for the pain to stop.
That the way I see it.
Indeed, but that's why conviction should come before torture.  We need to follow the due process of law before torture (which we haven't been doing), but after that, torture is fine in my book.
2008-03-09 10:00:13
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And three proven AQ players in 7 years is the equivalent of running around waterboarding anyone who looks askance at the US.

Actually, Bertster, it is EXACTLY what has happened.
Bollocks it is.

Several of the Gitmo inmates who have been released have released statements about how they were subjected to various forms of torture.
Because they have no ulterior motive for claiming torture...like international pressure to release their jihad brothers.

The fact that you would believe what they have to say without applying any critical thought to it simply because it supports your preconceived notion of what is or is not happening is either sad or laughable...or both.

The only proven "torture" that has happened outside of the Abu Ghraib incident was the waterboarding of three internationally-recognized AQ major players. Three. In seven years. And not done by the military, but by the CIA. No proven incidents of torture at Club Gitmo, which is run by the military.
That is nonsense. Maybe only 3 incidents in Gitmo itself. But there have been way more than 3 rendition flights.

How about Benyam Mohammed, Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery, for example?

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-03-09 10:04:02)

2008-03-09 10:09:56
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6918|Northern California
Maybe they should start infiltrating the bad guys network to get accurate information.  I seem to recall that being more than adequate for information gathering..oh, what is that called again... SPYING!!  yes, do what works..something proactive..not reactive like friggen torture.  Oh that's right, he fills his cabinet and department with cronies, and fires competent directors who show their wisdom in the face of his stupidity, who don't agree with the bubble ideology of this administration.

By the time you are torturing prisoners, you're already too late and too inept at keeping your country safe.  For the parrots that say "yes, I'd torture someone to safe millions of lives, I'd do it" I say you've been fooled by reality..reality that says a torture victim will never yield his life to spare the millions, and more importantly, if it got that far, where the greatest military power on earth, with the biggest defense budget year after year couldn't stop said assault on millions of people, then they have utterly failed...which I'm sure they're doing daily.


Bush Whitehouse = https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6273/failcctvof6.jpg

Bush intelligence agency appointees = https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9172/failcatvu4.jpg
2008-03-09 10:13:00
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

IRONCHEF wrote:

By the time you are torturing prisoners, you're already too late and too inept at keeping your country safe.  For the parrots that say "yes, I'd torture someone to safe millions of lives, I'd do it" I say you've been fooled by reality..reality that says a torture victim will never yield his life to spare the millions, and more importantly, if it got that far, where the greatest military power on earth, with the biggest defense budget year after year couldn't stop said assault on millions of people, then they have utterly failed...which I'm sure they're doing daily.
So true.

Have a guess where these 2 quotes come from:

Torture is against our laws and our values.
CIA could have no interest in a process destined to produce bad intelligence.

 

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