Israel Needs the Palestinian Extremists

2008-03-13 05:37:23

#1

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7184|Argentina

If you think about it, Israel doesn't want the extremists to stop throwing rockets into their land. In fact, these fuckers are the perfect excuse to keep things the same way. If Palestinian extremists stopped throwing rockets into Israel, then Israel would have to sign a peace deal, recognizing the sovereignty of Palestine and it would have to withdraw from the OT's, settlers included of course.

How much time do you think would the IDF take going into Gaza and hunting the Extremists? Instead of doing that, they build Berlin walls and checkpoints all around Palestine. Israel knows these assholes won't stop. Ever. And they don't seem worry about it. In fact, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea. As long as these nutters keep attacking their land, Israel will receive the support of the international community, specially the US. Israel needs them in order to be the victim. Meanwhile, the real victims live in those concentration camps called Palestine.

2008-03-13 05:38:52

#2

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6838|'Murka

As I've said many times: the Palestinians' worst enemies are the militants.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-03-13 05:39:11

#3

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7184|Argentina

FEOS wrote:
As I've said many times: the Palestinians' worst enemies are the militants.

Agreed.

2008-03-13 05:55:38

#4

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6969|Texas - Bigger than France

"Need" is a strong word.

"Israel knows these assholes won't stop." I'll keep that for later.

2008-03-13 08:18:59

#5

DeathBecomesYu: Member; +171|6606

sergeriver wrote:
If you think about it, Israel doesn't want the extremists to stop throwing rockets into their land. In fact, these fuckers are the perfect excuse to keep things the same way. If Palestinian extremists stopped throwing rockets into Israel, then Israel would have to sign a peace deal, recognizing the sovereignty of Palestine and it would have to withdraw from the OT's, settlers included of course.

How much time do you think would the IDF take going into Gaza and hunting the Extremists? Instead of doing that, they build Berlin walls and checkpoints all around Palestine. Israel knows these assholes won't stop. Ever. And they don't seem worry about it. In fact, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea. As long as these nutters keep attacking their land, Israel will receive the support of the international community, specially the US. Israel needs them in order to be the victim. Meanwhile, the real victims live in those concentration camps called Palestine.

I have said this exact thing repeatedly in past "Israeli/ Palestinian" posts. If the Palestinians would clean their own house up and stop the BS, then Israel would not have a leg to stand on. If Israel continued its settlements and incursions then the international community would come down hard and dont give me the bullshit that the UN has had resolutions to condemn Israel before. The allies of Israel, the countries that don't support resolutions against Israel (mainly the US) use the same excuse that Israel has to be able to protect itself.

So, if the jihadist, Hamas and elements of AQ would just leave or wake up and start a protest war without violence, then they could get somewhere. But if these attacks keep coming, especially aimed at innocent people (recent attack on kids), then Israel will fight and will have international support to protect itself and have every excuse to root out the terrorist the best way they can and in some ways, you cant blame them.

Israel could also prove a point. Lets say that Israel promises that it will not retaliate or expand or do anything for a period of one year (publicly or not), then we would see if Palestinians could handle that and get back to the table for talks. I am pretty positive that the rockets would still fall. If Israel could hold off for a year, still get bombarded during that time and when time is up.....they would have every reason to do what they had to and no one could bitch about it.

2008-03-13 09:56:47

#6

S.Lythberg: Mastermind; +429|6874|Chicago, IL

remember The Sum of All Fears?

the IDF was terrified of peaceful protest, because they lose the moral high ground.

2008-03-13 10:08:13

#7

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6650|Escea

sergeriver wrote:
If you think about it, Israel doesn't want the extremists to stop throwing rockets into their land. In fact, these fuckers are the perfect excuse to keep things the same way. If Palestinian extremists stopped throwing rockets into Israel, then Israel would have to sign a peace deal, recognizing the sovereignty of Palestine and it would have to withdraw from the OT's, settlers included of course.

How much time do you think would the IDF take going into Gaza and hunting the Extremists? Instead of doing that, they build Berlin walls and checkpoints all around Palestine. Israel knows these assholes won't stop. Ever. And they don't seem worry about it. In fact, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea. As long as these nutters keep attacking their land, Israel will receive the support of the international community, specially the US. Israel needs them in order to be the victim. Meanwhile, the real victims live in those concentration camps called Palestine.

I'm pretty sure everyone would complain if they went into Gaza. Also highly doubt a country enjoys having rockets lobbed at it.

2008-03-13 10:39:46

#8

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|7028|132 and Bush

This topic reminds me of this article.

The most successful jobs program in the Arab world has been Palestinian "resistance" to Israel.

Consider what peace with Israel - real peace - would mean in the West Bank and Gaza, in southern Lebanon and the Bekaa Valley: Tens of thousands of gunmen (and terrorists) out of work, with no marketable skills - and radicalized by decades of fanatic rhetoric.

Think a punk who's grown accustomed to swaggering around town in a face mask with a Kalashnikov is going to scrub squat toilets for a living?

Generations have grown addicted to the struggle - and its perks. It's the only bearable justification for their individual and collective failures in life. Real peace with Israel would probably spark a convulsion throughout the Arab world - as tens of millions realized that their sacrifices were a travesty that merely empowered thieves.

Another reason Arab states won't make peace: Most of their leaders have only survived in power because they have Israel to blame for every disappointment their people face. Israel has become the great excuse for every self-wrought failure in the Middle East - and that excuse is more valuable to Arab rulers than peace could ever be.

Were peace ever to arrive, Arabs might begin to demand good government. And the corruption that has thrived during decades of crisis could come into question. Worst of all, Arabs might have to accept responsibility for the catastrophic condition of their own societies.

In the end, the problem's difficulty can be put in New York City terms: A shiftless, violent family that turned an apartment into a slum was evicted. The new tenants cleaned up the place and made the apartment a showcase. Now the former tenants hate them for it - and want the apartment back.

But the apartment can only accommodate one family.

If you want a sober perspective on the Annapolis dog-and-pony show, just ask yourself this: Who will leave disappointed, if nothing much results?

The Arabs won't care. They came because we got on our knees and begged.

The Israelis will just be relieved that their latest trip to the geostrategic dentist is over.

Any Russians soiling the furniture at the Naval Academy will be delighted if another American effort flops.

And the Europeans just popped in to check the "we care" box.

The only unhappy campers will be us. We set ourselves up. Again.

Oh, and even if there's some sort of agreement, only the Israelis will honor it. Grudgingly.

We're dealing with people who are fighting for their lives and homes. Our team's fighting for poll numbers. Now that's asymmetrical warfare.

By electing ourselves as the Middle East's indispensable problem-solvers, we've just put ourselves on the blame line for other people's problems. Without solving any of them.

Santa won't show up at Annapolis. If he did, the best gift he could bring the Bush administration and its Democratic rivals would be a sense of reality: It's a lot easier to believe in Santa than in Arabs accepting a just peace with Israel.

That doesn't sound any less reasonable than the idea that Israelis need gunmen to come in and slaughter their children while in school.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2008-03-13 10:45:02

#9

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6838|'Murka

Everyone knows the NY Post is a puppet of the Zionists and US corporations.

Silly goose.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-03-13 10:47:24

#10

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|7028|132 and Bush

FEOS wrote:
Everyone knows the NY Post is a puppet of the Zionists and US corporations.

Silly goose.

Ralph Peters is a retired Lieutenant Colonel who writes for several papers including USA today. He is extremely critical of the Bush Administration (It's actually the real point behind that article).

At present, the situation is aggravated by the Bush administration's desperate quest for a headline-worthy foreign-policy success - mirroring the Clinton administration in its closing years. But desperation's a poor basis for dealing with a geopolitical problem of near-infinite complexity, with ill will on every side except our own.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2008-03-13 12:15:59

#11

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6838|'Murka

Kmarion wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Everyone knows the NY Post is a puppet of the Zionists and US corporations.

Silly goose.
Ralph Peters is a retired Lieutenant Colonel who writes for several papers including USA today. He is extremely critical of the Bush Administration (It's actually the real point behind that article).

At present, the situation is aggravated by the Bush administration's desperate quest for a headline-worthy foreign-policy success - mirroring the Clinton administration in its closing years. But desperation's a poor basis for dealing with a geopolitical problem of near-infinite complexity, with ill will on every side except our own.

I was being a complete smartass.

Just getting in a comment like that before the Palestinian militant apologists got in here to say the same thing.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-03-13 12:18:03

#12

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|7071

"The Rape victim wanted to get raped, or else she wouldnt be able to get the rapist arrested!"

wha?

2008-03-13 12:24:40

#13

Enzzenmachine: Member; +20|6772

Blatently Israel needs the palestinian extremists as much as USA and European countries need Al Quaeda & co. Imagine the world and your own life, for one week, without those conflicts (no media shits about terrorism, no paranoia about it and especially, it'd not be the mess each time you wanna go to USA). It's not that people need these conflicts, it's just that our governments need them. That's what I think anyway.

2008-03-13 12:27:47

#14

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6838|'Murka

Enzzenmachine wrote:
Blatently Israel needs the palestinian extremists as much as USA and European countries need Al Quaeda & co. Imagine the world and your own life, for one week, without those conflicts (no media shits about terrorism, no paranoia about it and especially, it'd not be the mess each time you wanna go to USA). It's not that people need these conflicts, it's just that our governments need them. That's what I think anyway.

Because governments would much rather throw resources and lives at combating people who want to kill them rather than live in peace.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-03-13 14:38:02

#15

Bagel_Bites: Member; +14|6354

I don't agree with your logic. This suggests that you believe that Israel is inherently evil and therefore to blame no matter what the situation is.

Situation: Israel retaliates against rocket attacks and civilians are killed as collateral damage.
Your argument: "Israel wants Hamas to launch rockets into their country so they are given the opportunity to retaliate."

As you could imagine, this could be applied to every possible situation. So, there really is no point in arguing with what you have said. This is also the kind of logic that makes people prone to radicalization. They are unable to objectively look at the facts and instead assume or create some ulterior motive that justifies their position.

Last edited by Bagel_Bites (2008-03-13 14:45:00)

2008-03-13 14:43:33

#16

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6426|...

No.

inane little opines

2008-03-13 15:24:23

#17

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7184|Argentina

Bagel_Bites wrote:
I don't agree with your logic. This suggests that you believe that Israel is inherently evil and therefore to blame no matter what the situation is.

Situation: Israel retaliates against rocket attacks and civilians are killed as collateral damage.
Your argument: "Israel wants Hamas to launch rockets into their country so they are given the opportunity to retaliate."

As you could imagine, this could be applied to every possible situation. So, there really is no point in arguing with what you have said. This is also the kind of logic that makes people prone to radicalization. They are unable to objectively look at the facts and instead assume or create some ulterior motive that justifies their position.

Read again, I never said the opportunity to retaliate but not to negotiate a peace deal which would give the Palestinians sovereignty over the OT's. Nowhere I said Israel is evil. And I never justified the extremists. Go write a novel.

2008-03-13 15:39:31

#18

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6717|Éire

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
"The Rape victim wanted to get raped, or else she wouldnt be able to get the rapist arrested!"

wha?

Not quite as simple as that.

I wouldn't say they 'need' or 'want' the extremists but it is logical to assert that the Palestinian militancy does serve, on some level, the Israeli's expansionist plans. Similarly I'm sure the US Defence department or Foreign office (or any non-neutral country for that matter) have competing voices pushing certain angles in various conflicts... in the same way elements within the IDF may be against effective covert, counter-terrorism as it may be too effective in dealing with the problem and may result in a peace plan that calls for a return to pre-war borders. It's a theory that's not too far-removed from the realms of possibility.

2008-03-13 16:45:55

#19

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7184|Argentina

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
serge throws the first insult. no surprise.

Which is...

2008-03-13 16:50:52

#20

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|7071

telling somebody they are wrong without elaborating while you finish with a suggestion that they should "go write a novel" isnt a compliment, isnt a debate and isnt serious.

2008-03-13 16:52:01

#21

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7184|Argentina

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
telling somebody they are wrong without elaborating while you finish with a suggestion that they should "go write a novel" isnt a compliment, isnt a debate and isnt serious.

I did elaborate, but you are free to think otherwise, and not everyone can be as polite as you are.

2008-03-13 17:06:52

#22

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|7071

sergeriver wrote:
Read again, I never said the opportunity to retaliate but not to negotiate a peace deal which would give the Palestinians sovereignty over the OT's. Nowhere I said Israel is evil. And I never justified the extremists. Go write a novel.

oh, so thats an elaboration? looks more like you telling him he is wrong, not why he is wrong. I happen to agree with his post. You arent looking at this objectively.

2008-03-13 17:39:42

#23

konfusion: mostly afk; +480|6977|CH/BR - in UK

Enzzenmachine wrote:
Blatently Israel needs the palestinian extremists as much as USA and European countries need Al Quaeda & co. Imagine the world and your own life, for one week, without those conflicts (no media shits about terrorism, no paranoia about it and especially, it'd not be the mess each time you wanna go to USA). It's not that people need these conflicts, it's just that our governments need them. That's what I think anyway.

The OP should have specified. The Israeli government needs this. It all makes sense. The Israeli people (hopefully) want this to stop.

Last edited by konfusion (2008-03-13 17:43:00)

2008-03-13 17:50:25

#24

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,991|7059|949

sergeriver wrote:
If you think about it, Israel doesn't want the extremists to stop throwing rockets into their land. In fact, these fuckers are the perfect excuse to keep things the same way. If Palestinian extremists stopped throwing rockets into Israel, then Israel would have to sign a peace deal, recognizing the sovereignty of Palestine and it would have to withdraw from the OT's, settlers included of course.

How much time do you think would the IDF take going into Gaza and hunting the Extremists? Instead of doing that, they build Berlin walls and checkpoints all around Palestine. Israel knows these assholes won't stop. Ever. And they don't seem worry about it. In fact, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea. As long as these nutters keep attacking their land, Israel will receive the support of the international community, specially the US. Israel needs them in order to be the victim. Meanwhile, the real victims live in those concentration camps called Palestine.

I bet you they (Israelis) would love for rockets and suicide bombs to stop. I know I would. I went to Israel (and Palestine, some areas anyway) about 8 years ago, and I know I was definitely worried a little about an attack; I can't imagine how it would feel to live in some areas like Tel Aviv or Jenin.

For the most part, Israel DOES want to sign peace agreements and recognize Palestine. The situation is a political quagmire - it's not just about suicide attacks and Katyusha rockets.

Many areas of Palestine are fucking horrible, but to call them concentration camps is a little over the top. It's more like a shit hole barrio you would find in Mexico City or Rio.

I really think the US would support Israel regardless of the attacks. One major factor of our support is that they are a stable democracy with west-friendly policy and international vision. If an Arab state in the region (maybe Jordan or Kuwait if they got rid of the monarchy) had a like-minded vision and policy it would receive US support.

The agenda of hard-line Israeli politicians in government benefits from Palestinian extremists, for sure - just like the neo-con agenda benefits from the War on Terror. That's just factional political policy within Israel, not nearly indicative all politicians in Israel.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-03-13 18:14:59)

2008-03-13 20:12:49

#25

san4: The Mas; +311|7115|NYC, a place to live

The OP is bizarre. If there were peace between Israel and their Arab enemies, Israel would obtain what it really wants. Opening up commerce between Israel and the Arab nations would lead to a huge economic boom across the middle east and tremendous prosperity in Israel. Peace would also free up the Israeli military to go after Iran. That is why Iran provides training and support to Hamas: to keep the conflict going.

sergeriver wrote:
If you think about it, Israel doesn't want the extremists to stop throwing rockets into their land. In fact, these fuckers are the perfect excuse to keep things the same way. If Palestinian extremists stopped throwing rockets into Israel, then Israel would have to sign a peace deal, recognizing the sovereignty of Palestine and it would have to withdraw from the OT's, settlers included of course.

Israel accepted a two-state solution 60 years ago. It also withdrew from Gaza, uprooting 21 settlements. Although some right-wingers want to expand the state into the OT's, the vast majority of Israelis support withdrawal if it would lead to peace. The fact that Olmert and Kadima are in power is evidence of that.

Remember there's a military draft in Israel--parents can't be too happy with a conflict that puts their kids into combat. And I'm sure Israeli businesses would love to be able to hire cheap labor from the OT's and elsewhere around the middle east. The idea that Israel wants the conflict to continue is inconsistent with logic and the evidence.

sergeriver wrote:
How much time do you think would the IDF take going into Gaza and hunting the Extremists? Instead of doing that, they build Berlin walls and checkpoints all around Palestine.

It is a pleasant fantasy to think that it would be easy for the IDF to go into Gaza and catch or kill all the bad guys, but it's absurd and unrealistic. It's impossible to find all of them, and any large military operation in Gaza would cause huge numbers of civilian casualties. There are hundreds (maybe thousands?) of fighters from Hamas and other groups who have assault rifles and other serious weapons. It would be a brutal urban war, not a quick, clean police action. You are dreaming.

sergeriver wrote:
Israel knows these assholes won't stop. Ever. And they don't seem worry about it. In fact, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea. As long as these nutters keep attacking their land, Israel will receive the support of the international community, specially the US. Israel needs them in order to be the victim. Meanwhile, the real victims live in those concentration camps called Palestine.

Are you being sarcastic about Israel receiving the support of the international community?

BF2S Forums Israel Needs the Palestinian Extremists

FEOS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Enzzenmachine wrote:

Bagel_Bites wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Enzzenmachine wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

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