konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6977|CH/BR - in UK

WallStreetJournal wrote:

Court to Hear Arguments
On D.C. Handgun Ban
Associated Press
March 18, 2008 11:54 a.m.

WASHINGTON -- The District of Columbia is asking the Supreme Court to preserve the capital's ban on handguns in a major case over the meaning of the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms."

A Washington resident who wants to keep handguns at home for protection is challenging the 32-year-old ban as a violation of his constitutional rights. A federal appeals court in Washington agreed that the city cannot ban handguns. The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments Tuesday morning in perhaps the most closely watched case of the term.

In its only ruling today, the court upheld the state of Washington's open primary election system.

By a 7-2 vote, the court said the state may use a primary system that allows the top two vote-getters to advance to the general election, even if they are from the same party. Tuesday's decision is the second of two this year on the rights of political parties. Washington never held a primary under the new system because of legal challenges.

The guns case included 68 briefs from outside groups, most opposed to the ban.

Hundreds of people waited, some since Sunday, for a chance to watch the proceedings. "I'm hopeful that reasoned minds will prevail," Rep. Chaka Fattah, (D., Pa.) said outside the court Tuesday morning. He authored a brief supporting the District.

Paul Dembowski, 40, a musician from Annapolis, Md., said the Bill of Rights generally protects individuals' rights. "It's a matter of civil liberties. You can't take just one part of the Bill of Rights and not another," he said.

Washington resident Amy Miller, 32, disagreed with the idea that she and her neighbors would be safer if they could have guns at home. "I don't think we need more handguns in Washington, D.C.," Ms. Miller said.

The court planned to release audio recordings of the arguments as soon as they conclude.

The court has not conclusively interpreted the Second Amendment in the 216 years since its ratification. The basic issue for the justices is whether the amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.

Even if the court determines there is an individual right, the justices still will have to decide whether the District's ban can stand and how to evaluate other gun control laws. This issue has caused division within the Bush administration, with Vice President Dick Cheney taking a harder line than the administration's official position at the court.

The local Washington government argues that its law should be allowed to remain in force whether or not the amendment applies to individuals, although it reads the amendment as intended to allow states to have armed forces.

The City Council that adopted the ban said it was justified because "handguns have no legitimate use in the purely urban environment of the District of Columbia."

Dick Anthony Heller, 65, an armed security guard, sued the District after it rejected his application to keep a handgun at his home for protection. His lawyers say the amendment plainly protects an individual's right.

The 27 words and three enigmatic commas of the Second Amendment have been analyzed again and again by legal scholars, but hardly at all by the Supreme Court. The amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The last Supreme Court ruling on the topic came in 1939 in U.S. v. Miller, which involved a sawed-off shotgun. Constitutional scholars disagree over what that case means but agree it did not squarely answer the question of individual versus collective rights.

Chief Justice John Roberts said at his confirmation hearing that the correct reading of the Second Amendment was "still very much an open issue.
edit: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB1 … DgzWj.html

Discuss

Last edited by konfusion (2008-03-18 17:56:42)

GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Seems pretty clear to me... Also how is the ban really helpful, if people with intent to do harm with these weapons obtain them, in most cases, illegally? Doesn't that just render citizens more vulnerable to gun related violence?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6717|Éire
I think all American citizens should be legally obliged to own bazookas.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6977|CH/BR - in UK

The thing is that many not-so-sketchy dealers get their guns from legal stores, and re-sell... It helps the trafficking. Anyhow, this is not a discussion about the laws themselves, but about the actual meaning of the second amendment. Does it really mean that you're allowed to bear arms, or does it mean you're allowed to form armed militias? This is what the court is going over in DC.

-konfusion
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7059|949

GorillaKing798 wrote:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Seems pretty clear to me... Also how is the ban really helpful, if people with intent to do harm with these weapons obtain them, in most cases, illegally? Doesn't that just render citizens more vulnerable to gun related violence?
It's actually not very clear, which is why the Amendment is constantly questioned and interpreted by the courts.  The precedents have been set through different levels of the judicial system, and the collective thought is that there is a right to procure arms for personal use, but the Amendment does not disallow the regulation by legislature, both federal and local.

I generally agree with your assessment that criminals wouldn't really be affected by a ban on legal weapons.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-03-18 18:13:44)

GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida

konfusion wrote:

The thing is that many not-so-sketchy dealers get their guns from legal stores, and re-sell... It helps the trafficking. Anyhow, this is not a discussion about the laws themselves, but about the actual meaning of the second amendment. Does it really mean that you're allowed to bear arms, or does it mean you're allowed to form armed militias? This is what the court is going over in DC.

-konfusion
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
*I paraphrased
But today, seeing as we don't have a militia (I'm fully aware of the National Guard, thank you) like we did during the times the constitution was written, my interpretation would be that "security necessary to free state" would mean the security of citizens as they are part of a free state.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6977|CH/BR - in UK

GorillaKing798 wrote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
*I paraphrased
But today, seeing as we don't have a militia (I'm fully aware of the National Guard, thank you) like we did during the times the constitution was written, my interpretation would be that "security necessary to free state" would mean the security of citizens as they are part of a free state.
Yes, but nowhere does it say that having regulations would be an infringement of that right. Furthermore, the exact meaning of that exact phrase is up to the court to decide - and they're doing that now, for the first time in...200 years, probably.

-konfusion
GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

GorillaKing798 wrote:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Seems pretty clear to me... Also how is the ban really helpful, if people with intent to do harm with these weapons obtain them, in most cases, illegally? Doesn't that just render citizens more vulnerable to gun related violence?
It's actually not very clear, which is why the Amendment is constantly questioned and interpreted by the courts.  The precedents have been set through different levels of the judicial system, and the collective thought is that there is a right to procure arms for personal use, but the Amendment does not disallow the regulation by legislature, both federal and local.

I generally agree with your assessment that criminals wouldn't really be affected by a ban on legal weapons.
Now thinking about it, I do agree, off topic but related though: Should we rewrite amendments based on current interpretations? Or keep the system of judicial review? I would think a solid definite answer would save the justices time, but the amendments can sway either way based on the situations of the case.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6895

Braddock wrote:

I think all American citizens should be legally obliged to own bazookas.
Are you serious?










































Bazookas are way outdated, we need AT4s.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7059|949

konfusion wrote:

GorillaKing798 wrote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
*I paraphrased
But today, seeing as we don't have a militia (I'm fully aware of the National Guard, thank you) like we did during the times the constitution was written, my interpretation would be that "security necessary to free state" would mean the security of citizens as they are part of a free state.
Yes, but nowhere does it say that having regulations would be an infringement of that right. Furthermore, the exact meaning of that exact phrase is up to the court to decide - and they're doing that now, for the first time in...200 years, probably.

-konfusion
No, it happens pretty much every year at some level of the system.  Supreme Court has been ruling on it since at least the 1800s if I recall correctly.

I could bring all kinds of quotes from writings by the founding fathers in regards to their feelings about the 2nd Amendment, but the Laker game is on right now.
GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

konfusion wrote:

GorillaKing798 wrote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
*I paraphrased
But today, seeing as we don't have a militia (I'm fully aware of the National Guard, thank you) like we did during the times the constitution was written, my interpretation would be that "security necessary to free state" would mean the security of citizens as they are part of a free state.
Yes, but nowhere does it say that having regulations would be an infringement of that right. Furthermore, the exact meaning of that exact phrase is up to the court to decide - and they're doing that now, for the first time in...200 years, probably.

-konfusion
No, it happens pretty much every year at some level of the system.  Supreme Court has been ruling on it since at least the 1800s if I recall correctly.

I could bring all kinds of quotes from writings by the founding fathers in regards to their feelings about the 2nd Amendment, but the Laker game is on right now.
Please share, during the commercial of course. As of now I'm doing a current event on this and a 2 paragraph summary turned into around 10 plus pages, It would be greatly appreciated if I could include some of those...
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6388|Washington DC
I'm not going into Southeast DC at night until I'm allowed to carry.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7108|Disaster Free Zone

GorillaKing798 wrote:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Seems pretty clear to me... Also how is the ban really helpful, if people with intent to do harm with these weapons obtain them, in most cases, illegally? Doesn't that just render citizens more vulnerable to gun related violence?
Conveniently miss out the important point. You have the right to bear arms to form a (well regulated) militia to maintain the security of a free state.

ie. Gun ownership for personal use is not protected under the amendment.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2008-03-18 18:55:35)

GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida

HurricaИe wrote:

I'm not going into Southeast DC at night until I'm allowed to carry.
The ban however does allow rifles and shotguns to be kept in private homes as long as they are unloaded or disassembled, or outfitted with a trigger lock... Yet, handguns are not allowed because they can be concealed, talk about picking and choosing what you want out of an amendment sheesh...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … amp;sub=AR
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6388|Washington DC

GorillaKing798 wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

I'm not going into Southeast DC at night until I'm allowed to carry.
The ban however does allow rifles and shotguns to be kept in private homes as long as they are unloaded or disassembled, or outfitted with a trigger lock... Yet, handguns are not allowed because they can be concealed, talk about picking and choosing what you want out of an amendment sheesh...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … amp;sub=AR
Very stupid indeed. Why not just let me have a gun and carry it with me? If some asshole wants to threaten my life I'll learn him some respect.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6977|CH/BR - in UK

GorillaKing798 wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

I'm not going into Southeast DC at night until I'm allowed to carry.
The ban however does allow rifles and shotguns to be kept in private homes as long as they are unloaded or disassembled, or outfitted with a trigger lock... Yet, handguns are not allowed because they can be concealed, talk about picking and choosing what you want out of an amendment sheesh...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … amp;sub=AR
Pick and choose? Where does it say that the right can't be regulated?

-konfusion
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6557|North Tonawanda, NY

konfusion wrote:

Pick and choose? Where does it say that the right can't be regulated?

-konfusion
The fact that it is already regulated shows that it is OK to do so.  I need a pistol permit to buy a handgun.  That's regulation.

Obviously, the issue at hand is how far it can be regulated.  Personally, I think that the DC restrictions go to far.
GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6541|Tampa, Florida

konfusion wrote:

GorillaKing798 wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

I'm not going into Southeast DC at night until I'm allowed to carry.
The ban however does allow rifles and shotguns to be kept in private homes as long as they are unloaded or disassembled, or outfitted with a trigger lock... Yet, handguns are not allowed because they can be concealed, talk about picking and choosing what you want out of an amendment sheesh...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … amp;sub=AR
Pick and choose? Where does it say that the right can't be regulated?

-konfusion
Here we go back into interpretation of the law...
Infringed (my interpretation) means can not be altered or thrown out completely. How can you say that the banning of handguns and the allowance of rifles is logical? "No sir, you may not carry that glock, but your 12 gauge is fine." a gun is a gun is it not?

Last edited by GorillaKing798 (2008-03-18 19:15:16)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
It's not amusing how politicians never see the irony of more gun laws = more gun crimes.

AP wrote:

WASHINGTON (AP) - Americans have a right to own guns, Supreme Court justices declared Tuesday in a historic and lively debate that could lead to the most significant interpretation of the Second Amendment since its ratification two centuries ago.

Last edited by ATG (2008-03-18 19:35:16)

RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7141|US

SenorToenails wrote:

The fact that it is already regulated shows that it is OK to do so.
Hell no!  That logic does not work.  Otherwise, segregation would still be acceptible...etc.

GorillaKing798 wrote:

But today, seeing as we don't have a militia..
Actually, the US does have a militia.  See Title 10 of the US Code.

DrunkFace wrote:

Conveniently miss out the important point. You have the right to bear arms to form a (well regulated) militia to maintain the security of a free state.
Not necessarily.  See below.

"A well regulated militia"--a functioning military unit, comprised of the civilian population
"being necessary to the security of a free state"--said military unit is vital to maintaining a free state (or country)
"the right of the people"--the "people" refers to the general population, thus individuals.
"the right to keep and bear arms"--pretty simple.  It is a right (pre-existing).
"shall not be infringed"--that is pretty severe in legal terms!  "So, don't mess with it."

Let's see some quotes:
"The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals.... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." (Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789)

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self-defense." - John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-1788).

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater … confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?"
- Thomas Jefferson


"Strict gun laws are about as effective as strict drug laws...It pains me to say this, but the NRA seems to be right: The cities and states that have the toughest gun laws have the most murder and mayhem."
- Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune

"Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater."
- Peter Venetoklis


...and the clincher...
"The Constitution shall never be construed....to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2008-03-18 19:47:53)

Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|7133
The meaning is very clear.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Either the founding fathers made a huge error on the US bill of rights with a superfluous comma, or the second amendment really does specifically permit the right of individuals to own firearms.  The question here is not whether it says this or that, because the meaning is quite clear.  Whether you disagree with it or not, you cannot deny the second amendments true intention.

Last edited by Deadmonkiefart (2008-03-18 20:02:40)

pj666
Member
+16|6792|Sydney, Australia
The Constitution has to be re-interpreted as time passes because the country changes. Otherwise the law becomes irrelevant and is ignored.

When the Constitution was passed, the US was a mostly agrarian society that had just thrown off the English yoke, and feared a big government and a monarchy. It had no standing army, and trusted the citizens to protect the country via militias.

State of the art was a black powder pistol or musket.

Now you can carry a SMG with extended clip that could kill a platoon of MinuteMen with one clip in seconds. Or an assault rifle designed to be carried by a modern infantry man (granted, so could the old militas with the weapons of the day). I don't think the Founding Fathers intended that.

I say all Americans have the right to bear black powder weapons, and that's it. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Edit: typo

Last edited by pj666 (2008-03-18 20:10:55)

Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|7133

pj666 wrote:

The Constitution has to be re-interpreted as time passes because the country changes. Otherwise the law becomes irrelevant and is ignored.

When the Constitution was passed, the US was a mostly agrarian society that had just thrown off the English yoke, and feared a big government and a monarchy. It had no standing army, and trusted the citizens to protect the country via militias.

State of the art was a black powder pistol or musket.

Now you can carry a SMG with extended clip that could kill a platoon of MinuteMen with one clip in seconds. Or an assault rifle designed to be carried by a modern infantry man (granted, so could the old militas with the weapons of the day). I don't think the Founding Fathers intended that.

I say all Americans have the right to bear black powder weapons, and that's it. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Edit: typo
The constitution cannot simply be reinterpreted when the intention was clear.  It needs to be changed.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7108|Disaster Free Zone

RAIMIUS wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

The fact that it is already regulated shows that it is OK to do so.
Hell no!  That logic does not work.  Otherwise, segregation would still be acceptible...etc.

GorillaKing798 wrote:

But today, seeing as we don't have a militia..
Actually, the US does have a militia.  See Title 10 of the US Code.

DrunkFace wrote:

Conveniently miss out the important point. You have the right to bear arms to form a (well regulated) militia to maintain the security of a free state.
Not necessarily.  See below.

"A well regulated militia"--a functioning military unit, comprised of the civilian population
"being necessary to the security of a free state"--said military unit is vital to maintaining a free state (or country)
"the right of the people"--the "people" refers to the general population, thus individuals.
"the right to keep and bear arms"--pretty simple.  It is a right (pre-existing).
"shall not be infringed"--that is pretty severe in legal terms!  "So, don't mess with it."
Militia made of the "civilian population". '"people" refers to the general population'.
The right is for the people to bear arms because a militia is necessary for the security of a free state.

Says nothing about rights to bear arms for person use. So any law to ban such use is NOT unconstitutional.

"shall not be infringed", if you want to take this literally. Then there should be no restrictions on firearms, no licenses needed, no regulations in any form what so ever. As every for of regulation or law is a form of infringement. If you don't take it to these extremes, then I can easily argue that as long as you have the right to own one gun then your rights have not been completely infringed and is there by constitutional under that interpretation.

"Strict gun laws are about as effective as strict drug laws...It pains me to say this, but the NRA seems to be right: The cities and states that have the toughest gun laws have the most murder and mayhem."
- Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune
Both wrong and flawed in his observations and reasoning and has been argued many times before, having a secular gun law, but also having no kind of border security is like telling rocks to stop falling, but building no walls and wondering why you end up with land slides.

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

The constitution cannot simply be reinterpreted when the intention was clear.  It needs to be changed.
Then it needs changing, because it antiquated and irrelevant to todays society.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2008-03-18 20:50:51)

Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6421|Truthistan

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

The meaning is very clear.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Either the founding fathers made a huge error on the US bill of rights with a superfluous comma, or the second amendment really does specifically permit the right of individuals to own firearms.  The question here is not whether it says this or that, because the meaning is quite clear.  Whether you disagree with it or not, you cannot deny the second amendments true intention.
I would agree
But I would go further
The people have the right to KEEP and  BEAR arms and because this is for the purposes the people having arms ready for duty in a militia, then you are talking about military grade hardware, machine guns, machine pistols, grenades, rockets etc. etc.

And the real strong part of the right is that it shall not be infringed so in that context Washington DC can't limit the types of firearms held by the person. in fact a pistol would be way down the list of deadly military hardware. Why is the infringement issue important??? because the founding fathers feared tyranical government and one of the first acts of any government trying to override the will of the poeple would be to limit and destroy the rights of the people to keep firearms to defend themselves and American democracy. therefore, the founding fathers placed a constitutional prevention on infringing this important right of the people. Afterall, the right to participate in the political process and engage in free speech is meaningless if there isn't sufficient environment of security. AND why should the right be enforced today???? well you might say that we don't have tryanical government or a need for a militia... BUT that day may come and THAT is what this right is for. So the claim that it is not needed anymore is false argument... the right is to prevent future unknown threats to security. threats which may be unforeseen today.

AS I have said before the 2nd amendment also includes the right to BEAR arms meaning that a group of BF2 guys should be able to jump in a jeep fully armed with machine guns and rockets looking like a bunch of movie stereotype Somali rebels and ride around DC. Scary thought HUH well this right is to KEEP and BEAR arms meaning that you can walk around with them. After all some of the best security comes from deterrence and security is the goal of the 2nd amendment

SO having the right to have a pistol in a shoe box in your closet is a lot less scarier that what the right really includes. The DC ban will be struck down and it should be.

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