BVC
Member
+325|7122
Aaaand going a little off topic...   (its the DEBATE and OBAMA, HILLARY, McCAIN forums, right???)

To sum the article up, the wreckage of the Kormoran, a WW2 german naval vessel which fought the HMAS Sydney off the Western Australia coast, has been found.  Both boats got royally fucked up in the fight between Germany and Australia, there is speculation that a Jap sub may have been involved and...yeah...they found the wreckage of the German boat, so yay...

WHAT IF Germany and/or Japan had rampaged through Australia?  Hell, or maybe even if they'd got beat, what if they'd undertaken a disasterous invasion attempt?  HOW would the history books be different today?  Speculate, and discuss!!!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4446978a12.html
Aussie WW2 ship's tomb reveals the harsh truths of war
Reuters | Thursday, 20 March 2008

Is all really fair in love and war? It's one of a raft of ethical posers surfacing from the newly discovered wreck of HMAS Sydney, the warship at the heart of Australia's greatest maritime tragedy.

So shocking was the loss of all 645 crewmen, so little was known about their dying moments, and so much time – over 66 years – has elapsed that all manner of suspicions have filled the deep, dark void.

The circumstances of the Sydney's loss in 1941 have been clouded by the fact that there was not a single allied account of what Prime Minister Kevin Rudd this week called "the particularly bloody and brutal" encounter.

The sum of knowledge about HMAS Sydney's demise came from the 317 survivors from the German raider Kormoran, itself fatally wounded and scuttled hours after the battle.

That fund of knowledge will doubtless expand following this week's sensational discovery of both wrecks, an Australian equivalent of Tutankhamen's tomb.

But most, if not all, of those highly charged claims will probably remain unfounded.

They include allegations that a Japanese submarine may have helped the Germans sink the pride of the Australian fleet off the West Australian coast on November 19, 1941.

Further claims have it that Australian survivors were killed in the water by fanatical Nazis, that the German survivors lied to their captors and that the enemy had engaged in "criminal" behaviour.

An Australian parliamentary inquiry has already addressed all of these suspicions, and largely dismissed them.

The 1999 joint inquiry could find no justification for a criminal investigation into the deaths of the Sydney crew who, an awe-struck nation learned this week, lay in one of the most watery graves of all – on the floor of the Indian Ocean, some 100 nautical miles off the West Australia coast at a depth of almost 2.5km.

"The deaths occurred as a result of a wartime engagement, and no evidence was presented to the committee to suggest that any agencies or individuals acted in a 'criminal' manner," it concluded.

The Kormoran, it's true, was disguised as a Dutch merchant ship, the Straat Malakka.

But if soldiers can disguise themselves on the battlefield, why not ships at sea?

It's not as if the Kormoran was camouflaged as a Red Cross ship.

German survivors say the Sydney's captain, Joseph Burnett, allowed himself to be duped by the smaller and less powerful enemy raider.

Burnett could have blasted Kormoran out of the water from afar with his powerful six-inch guns, they say, but incompetence led him to approach fatally close, to within 1,000 metres.

The president of the Kormoran Survivors' Association, 89-year-old Ludwig Ernst, called that Capt Burnett's "crime" and blamed him for Sydney's loss.

Burnett's defenders, however, say the Sydney commander was reasonably entitled to believe the suspect ship might have been carrying allied prisoners of war, and refrained from firing to prevent hundreds of sailors being lost.

German captain Theodor Detmer told his allied interrogators that before opening fire with guns and deck torpedo he had decamouflaged and shown his battle flag.

But allegations persist that he used a "trick of war" by first firing a torpedo from an underwater tube, then firing as that torpedo struck home.

The positioning of the ships may help determine if this is so.

But in any case, there are those who argue that war is war and there is never such a thing as a "fair" fight.

The ships have certainly both been found pretty much where the Germans said they were.

For those wondering why it took 66 years to find them, the ocean is so vast and deep as to be barely comprehensible.

Searchers once famously remarked that the hunt for HMAS Sydney could not be compared to finding a needle in a haystack, because they had not yet found the haystack.

The Australian parliamentary inquiry found that despite years of questioning and cross-examination, the Kormoran's survivors maintained they told the truth.

"While the committee accepts that relatively few of those on board Kormoran would have known exactly what happened on 19 November 1941," it said, "the endurance of the German accounts over time lends weight to the survivors' recollection of events."

The inquiry also said claims that survivors from Sydney were killed in the water had proved unfounded.

An Australian War Memorial investigation of a Carley float recovered during the search for Sydney ruled out the possibility of the float having been damaged by machine gun fire.

The committee said there was "absolutely no evidence" to suggest a light speed boat was used to shadow survivors in the water and kill them.

"Continued claims of such behaviour, as with so many unfounded claims about the whole Sydney-Kormoran engagement, are both malicious and distressing to family members of those lost on Sydney," it said.

Neither was there any hard evidence of Japanese involvement.

This possibility "appears to have had its genesis in the shock of the loss and the inability of people to accept that Sydney could have been defeated in such a manner".

"It is unfortunate that the claims of third party involvement still continue to circulate in the absence of any substantive evidence," the inquiry observed.

One claim that still disturbs many families of the Sydney crew is the suggestion of an official cover-up.

The Curtin government withheld the news of Sydney's loss for 11 days, coming as it did in one of the darkest periods of World War 2.

The Germans controlled most of Europe and the Japanese were advancing through Asia; Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour was just weeks away.

But there are further suspicions that documentary evidence was either destroyed, misplaced or concealed.

The 1999 inquiry described as regrettable the fact that "a full inquiry does not appear to have been held immediately after the loss of Sydney, or in the post-war years when much information might have been obtainable".

"It is unfortunate that the inquiry is only now being held, when so many who may have been able to shed light on the events of November 1941 are either dead or infirm."

Authorities are now grappling with many ethical dilemmas, including whether to leave HMAS Sydney untouched in its seabed grave.

Experts say crew possessions, ship's logs and even human remains could be found if sufficiently isolated from oxygen and covered with sediment.

They point out that paper and bank notes were recovered from the Titanic, which sank in about fourkm of water in the Atlantic.

But HMAS Sydney is unlikely to reveal all of her secrets.

Naval historian Tom Lewis believes the Sydney wreck is going to be so badly damaged that a survey of it "will tell us only a little of her final moments".

Patrick Burnett, the 80-year-old son of Sydney's captain, told a reporter this week: "We will never know the real story, because you only ever hear one side."

And as Australia's joint parliamentary inquiry concluded: "At least on some matters, there are some things that will remain unknown and unknowable."

Last edited by Pubic (2008-03-20 07:52:24)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
Australia was going to be invaded by Japan.
I never heard anything about Germany, but seeings as they were alied it's not surprising.



My question; was there an Enigma.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6580|what

ATG wrote:

Australia was going to be invaded by Japan.
Yeah, Darwin was bombed by the Japanese, and 3 midget submarines made it into Sydney harbour. But the closest Japanese forces were to Australia were in New Guinea, Guam, the Philippines. Which all were eventually retaken after the Battle of Midway had cost Japan much of it's naval capability. An island hopping strategy was developed that luckily succeeded.

An invasion of Australia would have been far too costly and dangerous to attempt. There was never really any strategic value, and unless the target was Sydney no significant losses would have been made. Darwin was actually hit with more bombs than Pearl Harbour, but the damage was far less due to no major military presence there.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
-101-InvaderZim
Member
+42|7270|Waikato, Aotearoa
Yeah the HMAS Sydney has finally been found. Major mystery as to location my white arse. The survivors of the Kormoran said exactly where the Sydney was...... and waddya know?? 60 years later the HMAS Sydney was exactly where the Kormoran survivors said it would be. Makes me wonder why the Sydney wasnt found a LOT earlier...... Yes technology to go to the wreck has been available before now - the Titanic was found in 1985 in about 3800m of water, and the Sydney was found in only 2500m of water.

Oh well.

RIP Crew of HMAS Sydney
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6580|what

-101-InvaderZim wrote:

The survivors of the Kormoran said exactly where the Sydney was...... and waddya know?? 60 years later the HMAS Sydney was exactly where the Kormoran survivors said it would be. Makes me wonder why the Sydney wasnt found a LOT earlier
The major problem was that the German survivors could only tell you where the Sydney was in reference to the Kormoran. Both ships were lost and the German accounts of where the Sydney was last sighted meant nothing. The Kormoran was found, and then the German survivors accounts were actually useful.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6649|Brisneyland
The govt at the time were considering a deal where the Japanese could take all of the land north of Brisbane. It was called the Brisbane line ( or something like that). South of that the allied forces would defend any further invasion. I think this was a last ditch strategy, and was thankfully never implemented. Aussies at Kokoda (PNG) successfully held back the Japanese land invasion till the Japanese were forced into a retreat.

So my opinion is that the land north of Brisbane would be held by the Axis, South by Allies, providing there were no further battles for land from the AXIS ( but lets face it , they would have continued if they could have).
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7199|PNW

I speculate that land wars in Australia or the Americas would've been crippling to Axis powers.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7008|the dank(super) side of Oregon
Does/did Australia have much in the way of resources to exploit?  minerals? chemicals?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7199|PNW

Reciprocity wrote:

Does/did Australia have much in the way of resources to exploit?  minerals? chemicals?
Which reminds me to mod in cyborg Yuri-roos for Red Alert 2.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-03-20 22:59:55)

DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7108|Disaster Free Zone

Reciprocity wrote:

Does/did Australia have much in the way of resources to exploit?  minerals? chemicals?
Yes, but we didn't have the infrastructure to make it worth while or easily accessible at the time. And the size of the country and low population density it's literally possible to travel 1000's of km in any direction and not see any sign of civilisation. Invading Australia would have been similar scenario to invading Russia, only you would die from heat and lack of water instead of the cold.
-101-InvaderZim
Member
+42|7270|Waikato, Aotearoa
A better mystery would be: What the fuck happened to the 2 midget Japanese subs that entered Sydney harbour in an attempt to sink the USS Chicago? They damned near succeeded. I DO know that they never made it back to their "parent" sub.....
BF2Craglyeye
Member
+72|7099|Australia
I have heard stories that several Japanese Pilots actually crash landed/ or jumped(??) in the deserts near the the Queensland-Northern Territory Border near the Simpson Desert.

Anyway they didn't survive the harsh Climate.

Last edited by BF2Craglyeye (2008-03-21 00:21:30)

Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6576|'straya

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

The govt at the time were considering a deal where the Japanese could take all of the land north of Brisbane. It was called the Brisbane line ( or something like that). South of that the allied forces would defend any further invasion. I think this was a last ditch strategy, and was thankfully never implemented. Aussies at Kokoda (PNG) successfully held back the Japanese land invasion till the Japanese were forced into a retreat.

So my opinion is that the land north of Brisbane would be held by the Axis, South by Allies, providing there were no further battles for land from the AXIS ( but lets face it , they would have continued if they could have).
they werent going to actually give it to them... according to the theory they were going to evacuate the north of the defensive line (brisbane line) make small engagments in the north (sas style like in north africa) and then counter-attack hoping that New Zealand/ America would provide anphibious landings in the north...

in reality the japanese would never have been able to take the whole of australia... just the sparsly populated north... but it would have taken so00oooo000ooo long for them to do because the had stretched their supply lines so far they would have landed in australia and run out of ammo, food.

then we end up with thousands of japanese prisoners...

as for germany.. even if there was a plan for them to invade australia it would have been a nightmare... the amount of troops they would have had to pull from europe they would immediatly get suprise butsecks from britan, russia and america.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6895
My guess would be that they would fight eachother to a stalemate, the Germans were better trained and better equipped but the Aussies were fighting on their pwn turf.

So to decide who would win they would have the German Commander and Australian Commander fight each other in some drinking game and if the Australian won the Germans would have to leave but if the German won the Australians would have to accept that they were conquered.



That's how all wars should be waed methinks.

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