black holes?Mek-Izzle wrote:
The fact that you can't create or destroy energy
Black holes don't destroy energy. Nor does it destroy mass. It just kinda....sucks it all in, and...then, I have no idea what's inside a black hole. That's just some mysterious shit. But energy can't be destroyed or created. It's always converted from one form to another.
Hinduism teaches that the soul goes through a repeated cycle of being born and dying. It specifically includes the plant and animal world as I understand it. Quite different from what's described in Christianity.
its the energy destroying compartmentMek-Izzle wrote:
I have no idea what's inside a black hole.
I think it's all BS, but I think what he was saying is more to the point that unless one does something truly evil, something that would justify going to hell, that they will still be resurrected, just on a lower level.Stingray24 wrote:
Many good points, but I have to disagree here. Jesus specifically mentions the existence of hell multiple times in the Gospels and Revelation 20 describes the judgment of the dead. The existence in there is anything but happy.IRONCHEF wrote:
Those not found worthy (through their own choice..based on how they lived, learned, and refused their 'fair shot' at accepting the plan Jesus has for them), will not receive eternal life. They'll still be resurrected and have a lesser degree of glory and live forever happily...
Oh, I didn't say there was no hell. But then, define Hell? I'm Mormon so I'm following the "3 degrees of glory" principle...celestial kingdom where God dwells, terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The latter kingdoms or degrees of glory (don't think of them as geographical locations or planetoids like many people do but rather states of dwelling) are outside the presence of God. To us, that is Hell as it is described. This Telestial kingdom, though greater than earth, is hell..it has all the worst, who openly denied the Christ having once 'known' him, etc, etc..covenant breakers, etc.Stingray24 wrote:
Many good points, but I have to disagree here. Jesus specifically mentions the existence of hell multiple times in the Gospels and Revelation 20 describes the judgment of the dead. The existence in there is anything but happy.IRONCHEF wrote:
Those not found worthy (through their own choice..based on how they lived, learned, and refused their 'fair shot' at accepting the plan Jesus has for them), will not receive eternal life. They'll still be resurrected and have a lesser degree of glory and live forever happily...
Further, for the sons of perdition (Satan, his third of the kingdom, and those who had great enough degree of witness and then denied it, and Cain) inherit NO glory, receive no resurrection, these are they who will simply disappear.
Imagine knowing you could have lived with your family, your loved ones, and with God whom you've not seen since just before you were born, whom you've known for eternity..and then learning you would be without those...for eternity. This is the misery, the gnashing of teeth, the fire and brimstone and suffering that never ends..That to me is Hell, literally and doctrinally. but i should change that word "happily" because there is no happiness outside the presense of god in lesser degrees of glory. my bad.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-03-24 12:34:09)
mass -> energy in a black hole I believe, mass is consumed and released as gamma radiation.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
its the energy destroying compartmentMek-Izzle wrote:
I have no idea what's inside a black hole.
As for the god question, all things in the world are governed by statistical probability, sure one soldier had a bullet stopped by his iPod, but 4000 didn't, thats just odds, not gods.
No worries. Just wanted that clarified.IRONCHEF wrote:
...but i should change that word "happily" because there is no happiness outside the presense of god in lesser degrees of glory. my bad.
If that is true (and I have no reason to refute that statement), then he is right when he says energy can only ever be changed, and never destroyed.S.Lythberg wrote:
mass -> energy in a black hole I believe, mass is consumed and released as gamma radiation.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
its the energy destroying compartmentMek-Izzle wrote:
I have no idea what's inside a black hole.
As for the god question, all things in the world are governed by statistical probability, sure one soldier had a bullet stopped by his iPod, but 4000 didn't, thats just odds, not gods.
Still, my overwhelming issue with the whole 'God' concept is that dam bible. I have so many problems with what it says, and even, how it was created. A dictated note? Chinese whispers idea comes into play, and even, what where the poltical, and social gains of the scribes for writing it one way or the other. If there is actually a God, I am nearly certain, it isnt completly in the context of some white guy with a santa like beard raining vengance on people.
Martyn
Sort of correct.Bell wrote:
If that is true (and I have no reason to refute that statement), then he is right when he says energy can only ever be changed, and never destroyed.S.Lythberg wrote:
mass -> energy in a black hole I believe, mass is consumed and released as gamma radiation.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
its the energy destroying compartment
Black holes suck in matter. Physicists aren't really sure what goes on 'in' the singularity. But what they do know is that, as S.Lythberg says, they emit radiation (not sure it's gamma radiation, but it doesn't matter that much) and they slowly get hotter and hotter (and, oddly less massive) until they explode.
One theory goes that the big bang was one of these exploding black holes.
Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-03-24 14:32:56)
Well, I don't blame you. without some form of inspired reference, instruction, etc, the bible can be a big hodgepodge of contradiction, confusion, and humor sometimes. This is why it's a unique type of book...it requires the holy ghost to help you make anything out of it...to see past "man's" interpretation and understand what that prophet/historian/disciple wrote originally. also, reading with the wrong intentions is not going to help you understand it either..so many read it, or portions of it so they can say they read it, or studied it, or did it for scholastic reasons..some read it so they can argue with others about it's points of doctrine...all this = epic fail.S.Lythberg wrote:
Still, my overwhelming issue with the whole 'God' concept is that dam bible. I have so many problems with what it says, and even, how it was created. A dictated note? Chinese whispers idea comes into play, and even, what where the poltical, and social gains of the scribes for writing it one way or the other. If there is actually a God, I am nearly certain, it isnt completly in the context of some white guy with a santa like beard raining vengance on people.
Martyn
SOme history..
The Bible was not just written as it is. It was "compiled" as it is made up of 66 books (apocrypha is used in catholic circles and is additional). The Emporer Constantine had it compiled from the church's vast collection of inspired writings...and uninspired writings (see "songs of solomon"). From what I gather, Constantine and his flunkies reviewed everything they had, and if they felt moved by it, the added it to the "library" or cannonized final product - "bible" means, library of small books.
Anywho...the original writers, when they wrote their goings on, their revelations, their histories and teachings, did so probably by commandment so as to be used later. This pattern has occurred throughout history. But as history would progress, those writings get translated, and translated, mutated, and jacked up passing from one "learned" monk to another, from one language to another, etc, etc. Naturally, this causes many of the issues in the bible that make it...confusing, sometimes wrong. IN my readings, I've read citations to 18 books that were mentioned as being "scripture" but are not found in the bible. Even the book of rememberance (Adam's journal) is missing, and would be hugely important if we had it. Surely the other apostles of Jesus Christ recorded events both during and after their occurence of the Savior's life...but they were all killed eventually and with them their writings. There's allot of generations that have passed to only have 66 books. The Masada scrolls ("dead sea scrolls") are just an example of how bad the bible is jacked up..being translations or copies of original jewish texts (like Isaiah) that show huge differences that have occurred after centuries of bastardization from "learned monks" and uninspired translators.
So when you hear them born agains worshipping their bibles as being the complete word of god, and infallable, and perfect...tell them to think again. The only way they'll understand it is if they pray before and after reading, and get the intended lessons from it as promised by Jesus of the Holy Ghost (see John 14:26... But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.)
If you are convinced that there is an invisible man living in the sky, watching everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of this 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and cry for ever and ever till the end of time, BUT HE LOVES YOU. Well theres something wrong with you. Just believe what you want as long as you live dont do wrong to others.
As for you friend comment on believing just in case he exist, just imagine his face of surprise when he dies and theres no gates of heaven and no hell , now thats a face i dont want to miss.
On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism? Cant think of any more right now.
As for you friend comment on believing just in case he exist, just imagine his face of surprise when he dies and theres no gates of heaven and no hell , now thats a face i dont want to miss.
On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism? Cant think of any more right now.
Last edited by PeoNinja (2008-03-24 18:21:18)
That was somewhat of a stupid thing to say, and it was even dumber of him to be caught unawares; what if the cow jumped over the moon?Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:
I had a serious discussion with a fellow classmate on the issues of religion, as he has been trying to convert me for quite some time now, and my friend made an interesting statement. "Shouldn't you believe in god just in case, for when you die?" To which I retorted "What if I were to live forever?" This left him in shock. The thought of this left him without an argument.
It's easy to speak in hypotheticals. What if you did live forever? That are a million what ifs. The fact is, you will die, and your soul is in your own hands, God will not condemn you, but if you reject him so forcefully and with such will, so be it.
If you had even a teenie weenie grasp on what religion/christianity is, you might be worthy of a reasonable, mature response. For now, all I can think of is insults for your obvious retardation and inability to debate things well beyond your years. Stick to flicking boogers on girls and lighting your farts.PeoNinja wrote:
If you are convinced that there is an invisible man living in the sky, watching everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of this 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and cry for ever and ever till the end of time, BUT HE LOVES YOU. Well theres something wrong with you. Just believe what you want as long as you live dont do wrong to others.
As for you friend comment on believing just in case he exist, just imagine his face of surprise when he dies and theres no gates of heaven and no hell , now thats a face i dont want to miss.
On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism? Cant think of any more right now.
Absolutely right.Mek-Izzle wrote:
Black holes don't destroy energy. Nor does it destroy mass. It just kinda....sucks it all in, and...then, I have no idea what's inside a black hole. That's just some mysterious shit. But energy can't be destroyed or created. It's always converted from one form to another.
Black holes have times where they "feed" and times when they are dormant. No one knows why they go dormant but all black holes when feeding have large ejections from the poles. Energy has to go somewhere and apart from novae and supernovae there is no other thing so violent as a feeding black hole. They are the garberators of the universe. And they eventually evaporate as well.
To clarify some of my thoughts on this. I believe that eternal life would just become boring. As for Religion I have the upmost respect for some teachings of religion (be kind to neighbor, don't steal, yada yada yada) but some of the things, including heaven are nonsense. At least this is all opinion, how you view it is up to you.
from kinder to senior year in a catholic school bro, so i guess i have more than a teeny grasp of what is religion and christianty, since it was shove basically into evey hole i have except the anus ( THANK GOD! ).IRONCHEF wrote:
If you had even a teenie weenie grasp on what religion/christianity is, you might be worthy of a reasonable, mature response. For now, all I can think of is insults for your obvious retardation and inability to debate things well beyond your years. Stick to flicking boogers on girls and lighting your farts.PeoNinja wrote:
If you are convinced that there is an invisible man living in the sky, watching everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of this 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and cry for ever and ever till the end of time, BUT HE LOVES YOU. Well theres something wrong with you. Just believe what you want as long as you live dont do wrong to others.
As for you friend comment on believing just in case he exist, just imagine his face of surprise when he dies and theres no gates of heaven and no hell , now thats a face i dont want to miss.
On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism? Cant think of any more right now.
and for this part "On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism?". No one that i asked have answered any of those questions reasonably.
If you went to catholic school that long you should be able to answer those questions ...
Nevertheless, here is my view. We as Christians read the OT because it is the history of the Jews, the chosen people of God, from which the Messiah came. The OT gives the background leading up to the formation of the NT church and shows how God's plan progressed.
Edit: Just read Ironchef's post below, he said it better.
Nevertheless, here is my view. We as Christians read the OT because it is the history of the Jews, the chosen people of God, from which the Messiah came. The OT gives the background leading up to the formation of the NT church and shows how God's plan progressed.
Edit: Just read Ironchef's post below, he said it better.
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-03-25 10:22:25)
Oooh, catholic school? So that makes you knowledgeable about religion? your wording about the invisible guy in the sky and mocking what you perceive his actions are denote that you know nothing, and shows that you obviously didn't learn anything in catholic school..not that they teach you any doctrine there.
About the OT, Christians should read it because, as you obviously don't know, the New Testament, being the "new covenant" between God and his people, is about Jesus and the beginning of Christiandom. It is full of fulfilled prophecies from the OT about a "Savior" "Redeemer" a Son of God (and about a dozen other specific names for Jesus). And unless you have read the OT and understood the endless symbolism, meanings, "types and shadows of things to come," etc, then you too would be like the Jews and Romans who could not recognize the Christ when he came.
For example, how meaningful would the title be "Lamb of God" if you didn't know about the temple practice in the OT where they sacrifice a perfect, male lamb (without blemish or spot), breaking no bones, a lamb who did not cry when slaughtered, etc, etc. Exactly, you'd think it was just another meaningless title. But if you read the OT, and then started the NT, you'd see the prophecies, the rich and meaningful symbolism, you'd see God's patterns followed steadily throughout the whole book (which would also teach you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, etc, etc). Many writers of OT books, if not all, spoke of the Messiah to come, even explained details about this Messiah. Were it not so, the Romans would not have ordered the killing of the male children thinking they could stop this promised Messiah from coming and causing an uprising or threat to their power.
Anyway, the OT is hugely important to Christians. I see "Christians" all the time who seem to only read Paul's writings, quoting left and right his writings..but they don't know jack about the writings of James, John, the gospels, Isaiah, Moses, Daniel, etc. Why people limit themselves to an obviously incomplete set of writings on things pertaining to all things divine is baffling. They're just as bad as people who worship their infallible bible or who openly carry it trying to 'be seen of men' and to appear 'holier than thou.'
About the OT, Christians should read it because, as you obviously don't know, the New Testament, being the "new covenant" between God and his people, is about Jesus and the beginning of Christiandom. It is full of fulfilled prophecies from the OT about a "Savior" "Redeemer" a Son of God (and about a dozen other specific names for Jesus). And unless you have read the OT and understood the endless symbolism, meanings, "types and shadows of things to come," etc, then you too would be like the Jews and Romans who could not recognize the Christ when he came.
For example, how meaningful would the title be "Lamb of God" if you didn't know about the temple practice in the OT where they sacrifice a perfect, male lamb (without blemish or spot), breaking no bones, a lamb who did not cry when slaughtered, etc, etc. Exactly, you'd think it was just another meaningless title. But if you read the OT, and then started the NT, you'd see the prophecies, the rich and meaningful symbolism, you'd see God's patterns followed steadily throughout the whole book (which would also teach you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, etc, etc). Many writers of OT books, if not all, spoke of the Messiah to come, even explained details about this Messiah. Were it not so, the Romans would not have ordered the killing of the male children thinking they could stop this promised Messiah from coming and causing an uprising or threat to their power.
Anyway, the OT is hugely important to Christians. I see "Christians" all the time who seem to only read Paul's writings, quoting left and right his writings..but they don't know jack about the writings of James, John, the gospels, Isaiah, Moses, Daniel, etc. Why people limit themselves to an obviously incomplete set of writings on things pertaining to all things divine is baffling. They're just as bad as people who worship their infallible bible or who openly carry it trying to 'be seen of men' and to appear 'holier than thou.'
well spake. i love the old testament.IRONCHEF wrote:
Oooh, catholic school? So that makes you knowledgeable about religion? your wording about the invisible guy in the sky and mocking what you perceive his actions are denote that you know nothing, and shows that you obviously didn't learn anything in catholic school..not that they teach you any doctrine there.
About the OT, Christians should read it because, as you obviously don't know, the New Testament, being the "new covenant" between God and his people, is about Jesus and the beginning of Christiandom. It is full of fulfilled prophecies from the OT about a "Savior" "Redeemer" a Son of God (and about a dozen other specific names for Jesus). And unless you have read the OT and understood the endless symbolism, meanings, "types and shadows of things to come," etc, then you too would be like the Jews and Romans who could not recognize the Christ when he came.
For example, how meaningful would the title be "Lamb of God" if you didn't know about the temple practice in the OT where they sacrifice a perfect, male lamb (without blemish or spot), breaking no bones, a lamb who did not cry when slaughtered, etc, etc. Exactly, you'd think it was just another meaningless title. But if you read the OT, and then started the NT, you'd see the prophecies, the rich and meaningful symbolism, you'd see God's patterns followed steadily throughout the whole book (which would also teach you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, etc, etc). Many writers of OT books, if not all, spoke of the Messiah to come, even explained details about this Messiah. Were it not so, the Romans would not have ordered the killing of the male children thinking they could stop this promised Messiah from coming and causing an uprising or threat to their power.
Anyway, the OT is hugely important to Christians. I see "Christians" all the time who seem to only read Paul's writings, quoting left and right his writings..but they don't know jack about the writings of James, John, the gospels, Isaiah, Moses, Daniel, etc. Why people limit themselves to an obviously incomplete set of writings on things pertaining to all things divine is baffling. They're just as bad as people who worship their infallible bible or who openly carry it trying to 'be seen of men' and to appear 'holier than thou.'
we read the old testament because if we didn't we would have no clue why Jesus did anything he did and we wouldn't understand anything about our own religion.PeoNinja wrote:
On a more serious note. Why christians read from the old testament? Isnt the old testament the book of the jews? If a christian priest interpret a passage from the old testament, is it possible that the interpretation could be wrong since its not "his" book and he hasnt had a proper education in judaism? Cant think of any more right now.
Good point Clogar. I didn't even mention the biggest reason for both sections of the bible..or for why they're even considered "new and old testaments - or covenants actually. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The laws and ways of the OT, the whole belief structure the Jews followed for many hundreds of years..was all over..or rather all changed and "elevated" to this new, higher, more personal, more accountable, and more joy giving new law.
When asked which of the commandments was greatest in the law, as if to trick him, Jesus, being the law giver of the old testament, and obviously knowing them and their combined purpose told them that loving your god was the greatest, as was loving your neighbor as yourself. In context of this post, without knowing the OT or the 10 commandments, you could not understand his summary of all 10, in 2 great commandments (the first 4 of the 10 focus on god, the remaining 6 of the 10 focusing on others).
Anyway, done being preachy here. Will take personal messages for further discussion if needed.
When asked which of the commandments was greatest in the law, as if to trick him, Jesus, being the law giver of the old testament, and obviously knowing them and their combined purpose told them that loving your god was the greatest, as was loving your neighbor as yourself. In context of this post, without knowing the OT or the 10 commandments, you could not understand his summary of all 10, in 2 great commandments (the first 4 of the 10 focus on god, the remaining 6 of the 10 focusing on others).
Anyway, done being preachy here. Will take personal messages for further discussion if needed.
What kind of god would allow himself to be defrauded? My point was essentially that belief solely as an insurance policy is not true belief.Ender2309 wrote:
that really depends on what god you call your own.SenorToenails wrote:
Religion as an insurance policy is a bad attitude. If god were truly omnipotent, he/she/it would know your true motives were less than virtuous, and your reserved seat in paradise would probably be in question.
Edit: It is relevant to state that I am an agnostic and generally do not care if there is/was a god.
I would venture that your example of simpler math is actually more complex because it does not follow the axioms of real line, but I digress.Ender2309 wrote:
as of yet, I've seen nothing definitive that says i should or shouldn't believe in god. Sure, we can apply Occam's Razor, but just because its simpler doesn't mean its true. (X+2)^2=X^2 +4 is easier math than X^2 +4X+4, but we all know the second is correct, right?