Both sides do it. The other side says, "If you're against the war, you're against the troops!"M.O.A.B wrote:
Aye, but if we mock anything they put up its like 'omg u bigot or ignorant', yep they're part of the fair non-biased side.usmarine wrote:
Dont bother hurricane. Most people on here do not like good news out of Iraq. They mock it as illustrated in some of the replies already. Fuck'em dude. Don't even try anymore, ain't worth it.
Pretty much... We saw how long it took for us to heal from our own Civil War.Braddock wrote:
Sadly I think if a nation has a civil war in them, so to speak, no amount of babysitting is going to stop it from breaking out eventually.HurricaИe wrote:
The more good news coming out of Iraq, the faster we can be out of there. I want the troops home just as much as an extremist liberal hippie... but I do recognize that we can't simply up and leave the Iraqis to fight civil war.
We have to keep up this "winning hearts and minds" as it were. The more Iraqis that support us, the quicker we can get out of there, because those Iraqis will want to kick the insurgents back to the stone age.
The best we could hope for, in such a situation as you suggest, would be for having most Iraqis (regardless of religious sect) support their new government.Braddock wrote:
Sadly I think if a nation has a civil war in them, so to speak, no amount of babysitting is going to stop it from breaking out eventually.HurricaИe wrote:
The more good news coming out of Iraq, the faster we can be out of there. I want the troops home just as much as an extremist liberal hippie... but I do recognize that we can't simply up and leave the Iraqis to fight civil war.
We have to keep up this "winning hearts and minds" as it were. The more Iraqis that support us, the quicker we can get out of there, because those Iraqis will want to kick the insurgents back to the stone age.
Last edited by HurricaИe (2008-04-12 10:03:46)
I'm actually amazed at how fast our country got over the divisions created by our own civil war considering it wasn't even a hundred years ago. It doesn't even figure in most people's minds these days that Republicans were killing fellow Republicans...divisions still exist to an extent but not in a hugely detrimental way.Turquoise wrote:
Pretty much... We saw how long it took for us to heal from our own Civil War.Braddock wrote:
Sadly I think if a nation has a civil war in them, so to speak, no amount of babysitting is going to stop it from breaking out eventually.HurricaИe wrote:
The more good news coming out of Iraq, the faster we can be out of there. I want the troops home just as much as an extremist liberal hippie... but I do recognize that we can't simply up and leave the Iraqis to fight civil war.
We have to keep up this "winning hearts and minds" as it were. The more Iraqis that support us, the quicker we can get out of there, because those Iraqis will want to kick the insurgents back to the stone age.
Finally a smart guy in BF2s that doesn't hate the US military and doesn't think America is the worst country.HurricaИe wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120787343563306609.html?mod=opinion_main_commentariesI may well have spent more time embedded with combat units in Iraq than any other journalist alive. I have seen this war – and our part in it – at its brutal worst. And I say the transformation over the last 14 months is little short of miraculous.
The change goes far beyond the statistical decline in casualties or incidents of violence. A young Iraqi translator, wounded in battle and fearing death, asked an American commander to bury his heart in America. Iraqi special forces units took to the streets to track down terrorists who killed American soldiers. The U.S. military is the most respected institution in Iraq, and many Iraqi boys dream of becoming American soldiers. Yes, young Iraqi boys know about "GoArmy.com."Iraqis came to respect American soldiers as warriors who would protect them from terror gangs. But Iraqis also discovered that these great warriors are even happier helping rebuild a clinic, school or a neighborhood. They learned that the American soldier is not only the most dangerous enemy in the world, but one of the best friends a neighborhood can have.Then al Qaeda in Iraq, which helped fund and tried to control the Sunni insurgency for its own ends, raped too many women and boys, cut off too many heads, and brought drugs into too many neighborhoods. By outraging the tribes, it gave birth to the Sunni "awakening." We – and Iraq – got a second chance. Powerful tribes in Anbar province cooperate with us now because they came to see al Qaeda for what it is – and to see Americans for what we truly are.Yeah, they all sure hate us eh? Hearing this (and this guy was embedded with soldiers during some of the most brutal years apparently) makes me think twice about a withdrawal.Once they mostly stood silent; today they tend to pick up their cell phones and call the Americans. Even in big "kinetic" military operations like the taking of Baqubah in June 2007, politics was crucial. Casualties were a fraction of what we expected because, block-by-block, the citizens told our guys where to find the bad guys. I was there; I saw it.
Questioning Government policy and decisions doesn't count as 'hating' the US by the way...when you take that into account I don't actually think there's too many people here who actually 'hate' the US.Bradt3hleader wrote:
Finally a smart guy in BF2s that doesn't hate the US military and doesn't think America is the worst country.HurricaИe wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120787343563306609.html?mod=opinion_main_commentariesI may well have spent more time embedded with combat units in Iraq than any other journalist alive. I have seen this war – and our part in it – at its brutal worst. And I say the transformation over the last 14 months is little short of miraculous.
The change goes far beyond the statistical decline in casualties or incidents of violence. A young Iraqi translator, wounded in battle and fearing death, asked an American commander to bury his heart in America. Iraqi special forces units took to the streets to track down terrorists who killed American soldiers. The U.S. military is the most respected institution in Iraq, and many Iraqi boys dream of becoming American soldiers. Yes, young Iraqi boys know about "GoArmy.com."Iraqis came to respect American soldiers as warriors who would protect them from terror gangs. But Iraqis also discovered that these great warriors are even happier helping rebuild a clinic, school or a neighborhood. They learned that the American soldier is not only the most dangerous enemy in the world, but one of the best friends a neighborhood can have.Then al Qaeda in Iraq, which helped fund and tried to control the Sunni insurgency for its own ends, raped too many women and boys, cut off too many heads, and brought drugs into too many neighborhoods. By outraging the tribes, it gave birth to the Sunni "awakening." We – and Iraq – got a second chance. Powerful tribes in Anbar province cooperate with us now because they came to see al Qaeda for what it is – and to see Americans for what we truly are.Yeah, they all sure hate us eh? Hearing this (and this guy was embedded with soldiers during some of the most brutal years apparently) makes me think twice about a withdrawal.Once they mostly stood silent; today they tend to pick up their cell phones and call the Americans. Even in big "kinetic" military operations like the taking of Baqubah in June 2007, politics was crucial. Casualties were a fraction of what we expected because, block-by-block, the citizens told our guys where to find the bad guys. I was there; I saw it.
Semper fi
Same as myself.Turquoise wrote:
It's kind of like the difference between hating a government and hating its people.
I hate Bush and Ahmadinejad, but I don't hate America in general or the people of Iran.
Therein lies the risk of intervening in other country's affairs...for every little Iraqi who appreciates you another might want to put a grenade in your boot.FallenMorgan wrote:
The thing is that if we withdraw, and the country goes into civil war, all those little kids will grow up to hate the United States, and Iraq might end up another Sharia fascist state.
There were some who did care. I can't recall his name but one Northern general had a plan for distributing land in Florida to various freedmen. Southern Democrats and the likes took power though, and stopped Reconstruction from ever accomplishing anything. I know you don't particularly like him, but Lincoln had a plan... but when he died, the Southern Democrats seized the opportunity.Turquoise wrote:
Most definitely, Hurricane. Reconstruction was a horribly implemented program. It showed that the North really didn't give anymore of a shit about black people than the South did.
Last edited by HurricaИe (2008-04-12 10:55:02)
I personally think that the US backed the wrong horse in Israel, given that it had chosen to go down the non-isolationist path. If they had managed to cultivate for themselves a good reputation in the Middle East among Arab State leaders as champions of the downtrodden Palestinian people it would be a lot more difficult for the extremists to paint them out as the 'Western devil'. Unfortunately the Jewish lobby were never going to let that happen.HurricaИe wrote:
There were some who did care. I can't recall his name but one Northern general had a plan for distributing land in Florida to various freedmen. Southern Democrats and the likes took power though, and stopped Reconstruction from ever accomplishing anything. I know you don't particularly like him, but Lincoln had a plan... but when he died, the Southern Democrats seized the opportunity.Turquoise wrote:
Most definitely, Hurricane. Reconstruction was a horribly implemented program. It showed that the North really didn't give anymore of a shit about black people than the South did.
And yes Turq and Brad, I agree... I may greatly dislike Bush and his gang of pals, but I like this country a lot. I dislike the policies of the Chinese government, but I don't have any ill will towards the Chinese people. I don't think we should've started this war, and we should pull out as soon as the country is relatively stabilized... but I do "support the troops" as it were (I admittedly must say that I haven't done my best part in supporting them though... I'm gonna look for some care package programs, send some stuff over there. If I get a new phone I'll donate my old one to that program.)
And yeah Brad, I also agree on where we should set foot in other's affairs. On one hand, isolationism would be ideal... keep us out of unnecessary wars... but it was also harmful. So much shit happened between when Hitler took power and when the US declared war on Japan, that very well may have been stopped had the US intervened. I mean hell, even when the Japanese attacked the US... we only declared war on Japan. Wasn't until Germany declared war on us that we returned the favor.
Dude, why are you even still on these forums? lol. You're so damn bitter. You seem to hate everyone here.usmarine wrote:
Dont bother hurricane. Most people on here do not like good news out of Iraq. They mock it as illustrated in some of the replies already. Fuck'em dude. Don't even try anymore, ain't worth it.
As of about an hour ago he got himself perma-banned (by choice) so he's not actually going to be on here anymoreRoosterCantrell wrote:
Dude, why are you even still on these forums? lol. You're so damn bitter. You seem to hate everyone here.usmarine wrote:
Dont bother hurricane. Most people on here do not like good news out of Iraq. They mock it as illustrated in some of the replies already. Fuck'em dude. Don't even try anymore, ain't worth it.
Yeah, that is the problem. Islam.CameronPoe wrote:
How about a flash of reality lads:
Radical Iraqi Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has said the US will always be his enemy "till the last drop of blood".
Third most popular political figure in Iraq, with a significant amount of support coming from the 2.5 million inhabitants of Sadr City, Baghdad.
So what are we supposed to do?CameronPoe wrote:
How about a flash of reality lads:
Radical Iraqi Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has said the US will always be his enemy "till the last drop of blood".
Third most popular political figure in Iraq, with a significant amount of support coming from the 2.5 million inhabitants of Sadr City, Baghdad.
There is absolutely nothing you can do.Pug wrote:
So what are we supposed to do?CameronPoe wrote:
How about a flash of reality lads:
Radical Iraqi Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has said the US will always be his enemy "till the last drop of blood".
Third most popular political figure in Iraq, with a significant amount of support coming from the 2.5 million inhabitants of Sadr City, Baghdad.
Incorrect. We could talk to him.CameronPoe wrote:
There is absolutely nothing you can do.Pug wrote:
So what are we supposed to do?CameronPoe wrote:
How about a flash of reality lads:
Radical Iraqi Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has said the US will always be his enemy "till the last drop of blood".
Third most popular political figure in Iraq, with a significant amount of support coming from the 2.5 million inhabitants of Sadr City, Baghdad.
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.Pug wrote:
Incorrect. We could talk to him.
But until then he's off my Xmas card list.
Really? No chance of kissing up, ever?CameronPoe wrote:
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.Pug wrote:
Incorrect. We could talk to him.
But until then he's off my Xmas card list.
You could execute him and all other Clerics that cite insurgency against the Iraqi government and US troops. If they hide in the Mosque, surround it and stave them out. If they fire from the Mosque, fire back with bigger guns.CameronPoe wrote:
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.Pug wrote:
Incorrect. We could talk to him.
But until then he's off my Xmas card list.
Good plan except the part about killing them or trying to kill them all.Lotta_Drool wrote:
You could execute him and all other Clerics that cite insurgency against the Iraqi government and US troops. If they hide in the Mosque, surround it and stave them out. If they fire from the Mosque, fire back with bigger guns.CameronPoe wrote:
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.Pug wrote:
Incorrect. We could talk to him.
But until then he's off my Xmas card list.
The special treatment the US has shown toward Islam has backfired miserably, treat them like Christians.
Ummm, I ment to say that we would bake them cakes and apologise for being infidels.Pug wrote:
Good plan except the part about killing them or trying to kill them all.Lotta_Drool wrote:
You could execute him and all other Clerics that cite insurgency against the Iraqi government and US troops. If they hide in the Mosque, surround it and stave them out. If they fire from the Mosque, fire back with bigger guns.CameronPoe wrote:
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.
The special treatment the US has shown toward Islam has backfired miserably, treat them like Christians.
You don't happen to be related to that other great military strategist Donald Rumsfeld by any chance?Lotta_Drool wrote:
You could execute him and all other Clerics that cite insurgency against the Iraqi government and US troops. If they hide in the Mosque, surround it and stave them out. If they fire from the Mosque, fire back with bigger guns.CameronPoe wrote:
He just wants the west out of his country so short of doing that there's no point talking to him.Pug wrote:
Incorrect. We could talk to him.
But until then he's off my Xmas card list.
The special treatment the US has shown toward Islam has backfired miserably, treat them like Christians.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-12 12:49:13)