BF2S Forums Syrian Reactor "not intended for peaceful purposes."

The Syrian ambassador to the USA was on CNN with Wolf Blitzer yesterday. Wolf asked him "If the building was empty, why do you care if IAEA personnel inspect it to insure it was never going to be used for nuclear purposes?"

He responded with "Why would you want to inspect an empty building?". I lol'd.

They keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

Dilbert_X wrote:

perhaps the Palestinians themselves?

Er, so the Palestinians threw themselves out of their own country, founded a terrorist state and handed it to the Israelis?

No, but they do keep lobbing rockets and sending suicide bombers into purely civilian targets.

Major.League.Infidel wrote:

This is my line of suspicion too.  While I agree with Cameron in the sense that, if Syria wants to have a chance against Israel, then they need Nuclear Weapons, I don't believe that that makes it right for them to pursue them.  Does Isreal have some fucked up policies, and fucked up actions in the past? Absolutely.  But they haven't nuked anyone.  Israel and Syria (and the whole middle east for that matter) should make peace, as fighting is not going to get them anywhere while the rest of the world is watching.  Agreements can be reached, and the worst way to go about that is by holding a nuke at each other's throats.

I would think that if Israel would want to pop a nuke, they had plently of reasons already to do so.  Or at least on the jagged edge.

So if Iran & Syria gets nukes, what changes?  Nothing really, except now you have two additional crazies on the block with nukes (Israel included).  That's no good either.

So if these plans are peaceful in nature, why not follow IAEA's rules?  Or are they stupid rules?

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

You clearly just don't get it. You act as if you are the only one who has experience in dealing or talking with Muslims from the middle east. Because traveling there gives you some magical authority to talk about the situation. It makes me laugh to hear your musings on an Asian Muslim compared to arab Muslims. Do you think that my wife doesn't have communications with Muslims of different races, especially in a Muslim community in the Midwest United States....if you don't then you are a serious idiot.

No I don't act as if I am the only one who has experience in dealing or talking with Muslims. Find one statement where I specifically state that I am the only one who has experience of the middle east. Such a claim would be ludicrous! I just state my opinions, like anyone else, based on what I know. You seem to take exceptional issue with that without actually dealing with the subject matter at hand. You just seem to be content to mumble on about how your wife somehow makes everything you say irrefutable. Like your knowledge of the customs of a particular religion automatically make everything you say about what is effectively a territorial dispute 100% correct. What the fuck does zakat, the call to prayer or the five pillars of Islam have to do with living in a refugee camp or being interned without trial? Nothing, that's what. Are you telling me that your wife and her American Muslim friends are sympathetic towards Israel and therefore, by extension, so are the other 1 billion Muslims? That's quite a leap. I'm sure Dearborn, MI, is incredibly similar to Damascus or Esfahan.... In general, Arabs and Muslims are not well disposed towards Israel and no personal experience is required to confirm this. It's is evident in the diplomatic relations of the Arab nations, in the fact that 'The Chronicles of the Elders of Zion' is on many of their curriculums, in the fact Israel have been attacked from all sides several times during its short history. I don't know what the disagreement is here - I think it got lost somewhere along the way. What exactly is it that I have said that you believe to be wrong?

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Do you think that you are the only person ever to speak to Palestinians, a Muslim, an arab.....my work and my family puts me in contact with them almost every day. The city where I live is near one of the largest, if not the largest, arab/ muslim communities in the United States. I deal with Palestinians all the time living and working in the United States. I recently sat down with a group of Palestinians who were helping build my new home. My wife and I had a long talk with them over what they felt about the issues in and around their conflict and guess what, they have more tolerance than you do. They definitely don't think or spew the bullshit you come up with and to this day I have a great working relationship with these guys.

What exactly is it that I am intolerant of? Do you disagree with a two-state solution to the Palestine issue or something? I too have sat with Palestinians and talked politics - in Bethlehem, in Jericho, in Jerusalem. One Israeli Arab I spoke with in Tel Aviv came straight out with the statement: 'I hate the Israelis'. He asked me what I thought of the Israelis and I diplomatically told him they seemed fine (not knowing his race) and that was his response. Do you think I'm less tolerant than Hamas or something? Are you incapable of registering the fact that there are people out there - Arabs and Muslims - who seek the complete destruction of Israel? Are you really that oblivious? Do you not see what goes on in Gaza on your television? Do you not see what went on in Lebanon recently? Are you blind???

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Finally, if you think that Muslims in Indonesia don't suffer some of the things you have mentioned (even though its Muslim against Muslim) then you seriously don't understand the Muslim world and what is going on even inside their own religion. Putting the suffering of one people above others and placing more importance on one is pretty stupid in my opinion. I would love for you to tell some of her family that what they have experienced isn't worth shit. Some parts of Indonesia are very dangerous and unforgiving but I guess you have have to "travel" there and talk to someone first, so you can be a guru for all of us ignorant/ uneducated drools.

I'm well aware that Indonesia, like many developing countries, suffers tremendous hardships. But on a purely facts and figures basis Palestine, and in particular Gaza, is worse off than Indonesia. No opinions necessary - just look up the HDI, GDP and standard of living stats... 

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

As far as Syria, again you choose to read what you want: I specifically said that if you are going to claim peaceful OR get caught red-handed with tech that the rest of the world is trying to halt...then be prepared for the consequences. I have repeated myself 3 times but I am sure you will pick and choose some more.

You specifically said: "Let me make it more clear, if you are going to mess with nuclear tech and then claim its for civilian or peaceful purposes, then prove it or allow others to verify it." Syria never claimed it was for peaceful purposes. As for the 'prepare to face the consequences' then yes that is correct. Syria messed up and are back at square one, as would be expected when the militarily superior country with which they are at war discovered what they were up to.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

As far as method, I don't give a shit. After he made a very racist, pretty weird, offensive PM to me about my wife, I had nothing to do with him from that point on. If you are going to hang out and uplift that kind of person, then that tells me even more about your character. I am not the only one who has experienced his personal messages and since I didn't respond to him, I guess he had to run to you. As far as I am concerned, he is a worthless piece of shit and not worth anyone's time, maybe except yours.

I think it is extremely childish to use PM to bash someone else, to offend someone else and to attack someone behind their back or so that others can't see it, but I see that it is in your nature as well. I have used my PM a grand total of 5 times and had nothing to do with any person here, basically hello and helping one guy out. It looks like you place a very high importance on karma and private messages. I have better things to do than go around trashing people in secret and getting enjoyment out of it. Honestly, if Method claims to be Muslim, he sure doesn't act or behave like the Muslims I know and live with. I can't see any of them acting like he has and for that matter how you are right now. I find it strange that you actively try to bring up things that offended my wife and myself. It seems you also find pleasure in that as well......

I think it's childish to use karma or PMs to bash people too, which is why I found your karma message to Dec45 quite funny. I've never sent hateful and derogatory PMs to anyone, but have myself received them. m3th0d was not being very nice - but that is the beauty of the anonymous internet - you can say whatever you want to anyone without consequence. I can't imagine him acting like that in 'real life'.

CameronPoe wrote:

Racist undertones? You're a retard if you think I have any interest in racism. I have an interest in justice for Palestinians and all those negatively affected by the birth of the state of Israel. I don't care what colour any of the protagonists skins are or what silly customs any of the protagonists might have. Egypt and Jordan had to sign peace agreements with Israel to recover land they lost in unsuccesfful wars. I guess the assassination of Anwar Sadat for signing the agreement demonstrates how much Arabs love Israel does it? Are you seriously trying to tell me that Arabs, in general, like or are even ambivalent towards Israel? Please....pffffft.

Here's a true story. You don't have to be interested in racism, in order to propagate racist stereotypes.

So you believe that 'justice' for the Palestinians entails the entire Arab ethnicity conquering Israel indefinitely? You don't care about the huge cost of life that would take, nor about the possible futility in such an attempt? Is there any room in that head of yours for peace? Are you not aware of the interest in peace, in general? How about the interest in peace, in Syria? If you were to avenge every atrocity that this planet has seen, you'd effectively destroy planet Earth. At some point, you have to take a loss and move towards the prospect of the future. Where's your consistency? There has been a huge number of injustices done to various peoples, just in the 20th century. Of those events, how many of them are you prepared to rally support for retaliation and revenge? Are you just one of those guys who romanticizes war, even when you're completely ignorant of what it means to fight it?

CameronPoe wrote:

Israel has somewhere in the region of 100 devices capable of obliterating 100s of 1000s of people, millions perhaps. For the Arab world to engage in conventional war against Israel in the interests of the Palestinians and in recovering lost turf then they must have a tool that deters Israel from using those devices. That tool is a nuclear weapon. It would not be in the interest of Syria to detonate nuclear devices in Israel as the effects of radiation poisoning would likely affect them given how close they are to Israel, not to mention the fact Israel would obliterate them with their own nuclear weapons. It's quite simple really.

If neither Syria, nor Israel can nuke the other without enraging the entire global population, as well as damaging each other beyond repair, why did you even bring it up? What got you to start rambling about how Syria should go to war with Israel, in the first place? This more than anything, speaks volumes about why both of them should ceasefire indefinitely.

And please, listen to yourself. Look at how giddy you are about Syria acquiring a nuke, so that they can finally march into Israel again. It's fucking sad. You're on the sidelines cheerleading a conflict that would do an astounding amount of damage, and all for some tiny ass piece of land that you have nothing to do with.

CameronPoe wrote:

Fantasy eh? Ever heard of the Six Day war? The Yom Kippur war? The 1973 oil embargo? The Israel-Lebanon conflict? How many Arab nations have diplomatic relations with Israel? Have you any idea how the creation of Israel affected those that lived there in and up until 1948? I think it is you who is indulging in fantasy. It's time to wake up.

Are you oblivious to how Arabs had been treating Jews in the region, as far back as the first decade of the 1900s? Are you oblivious to the fact that the Ottoman Empire ruled what is referred to as 'Palestine', for 500 years prior to WWI? Are you oblivious to the fact that the British, despite their extensive history of being Imperialist bastards colonizing the world, controlled the land afterward? The Palestinian people themselves set their borders according to the British Mandate. Why? They're supposed to be an autonomous nation with an historical foundation for unique identity, and yet their borders have always been dictated by a ruling empire/nation, even today by their own will? Regardless of this, they've actually had multiple opportunities for a unanimously recognized autonomous state, and they threw that away. And let's hypothesize for a minute on what would have happened to Palestine, had there not been a European consensus about Jewish re-settlement. Is there any guarantee that Palestine would have been sovereign? No, there's not. Is there any reason to believe that the Philistines were at all the same ethnicity as the Arabs that lived there afterward? No, there's not. Why should Palestinians be autonomous then? Why shouldn't they be ruled by some other nation, as they always have been? The truth is that Palestinian identity is a relatively recent invention of the 20th century.

CameronPoe wrote:

You seem to have serious issues with people saying things you don't like to hear. I am not advocating death to millions. I am simply stating what Arab nations should be doing militarily in order to level the playing field with Israel. If you don't like then tough. I am well read on the topic and have visited the region and have Arab colleagues at work here - I can only base my opinions on my own personal experiences and readings. What are you? A general in the IDF or something. You need to fucking chill out.

PS Cheers on the hypocrisy of calling me racist and then dismissing me as some 'Irish Joe'. Had to laugh at that one...rofl.

Why would you want Arab nations to be doing anything in their power to level the playing field with Israel, unless you are directly implying that you'd like these Arab nations to go to war with Israel? Last time I checked, Israel hasn't tried to conquer the Arab nations. It could have, and probably still could today, and yet it doesn't. So please, stop hiding behind your rhetoric. You don't want Arab nations to level the playing field for their safety, you want them to do it so they can destroy Israel. That my friend, is an advocation for the deaths of a lot of people. That's irrefutable.

And please enlighten me as to how calling you an Irish Joe, in reference to you being both Irish, and also an average 'Joe', is racist? Are you not a random Irish guy? Did I say something that was incorrect? Uh, no. I sure didn't. Shame on you for trying to victimize yourself like that. That's fucking lame. Your being an Irish guy, with no affiliation nor proximity whatsoever to the Arab people and their nations, nor Israel, is absolutely relevant to your incessant habit of inciting violence against Israel in the Arabs' name. Furthermore, your lack of similar support for the hundreds if not thousands of other 'freedom' movements around the world, is just as relevant.

CameronPoe wrote:

And if you must know know I'm an advocate of a free Chechnya, Tibet, Burma, Ireland, Basque Country and others.

Also you seem to justify the freedom of those countries by any means....

But as Cam has pointed out, technically Syria and Israel are still at war, so all that is moot.

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

But as Cam has pointed out, technically Syria and Israel are still at war, so all that is moot.

Not in the eyes of the IAEA. If the US/Israel are going to ignore the IAEA and the NPT, then it sends a horrible message to the rest of the world. The NPT is meaningless.

If Israel and Syria are at war then as it's is a civillian test reactor for the purpose of research towards nuclear power, then it's an example of Israel targetting civillian infrastructure and is therefore a war crime. The US should be advocating sending the people behind it to the Hague.

No, it's a matter of Israel targeting a "dual-use" facility, which is not a war crime.

And the last time I checked, the IAEA wasn't the authority on whether two sovereign states were in a state of war or not. Isn't their job nuclear inspection?

Sorry, but it's NOT up to the IAEA to decide if it's dual-use or not.

But you keep on beating that "war crime" drum.

FEOS wrote:

Sorry, but it's NOT up to the IAEA to decide if it's dual-use or not.

But you keep on beating that "war crime" drum.

It's certainly not up to Israel. As nobody has proved that this facility has broken any international laws or had anything to do with a threat to Israel, according to the Geneva convention, if there is any ambiguity as to whether people are combatants or civillians they must be assumed to be civillians, hence must not be targetted.

Who do you think gets to decide?

CameronPoe wrote:

PF - Israel and Syria are still technically at war with each other and during a war the protagonists attempt to take out facilities they strongly believe to pose a military threat to them. It is quite evidently not a residential building and as such calling it a 'war crime' is a bit of s stretch. It's the same as Hitler bombing London docklands and the Clyde shipbuilding yards or the Norwegians sabotaging the Nazi heavy water plants.

*Wipes Eyes*...*Wipes eyes Again*

I know you are not defending the action, but damn.

CameronPoe wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Sorry, but it's NOT up to the IAEA to decide if it's dual-use or not.

But you keep on beating that "war crime" drum.

It's certainly not up to Israel. As nobody has proved that this facility has broken any international laws or had anything to do with a threat to Israel, according to the Geneva convention, if there is any ambiguity as to whether people are combatants or civillians they must be assumed to be civillians, hence must not be targetted.

Who do you think gets to decide?

PF - Israel and Syria are still technically at war with each other and during a war the protagonists attempt to take out facilities they strongly believe to pose a military threat to them. It is quite evidently not a residential building and as such calling it a 'war crime' is a bit of s stretch. It's the same as Hitler bombing London docklands and the Clyde shipbuilding yards or the Norwegians sabotaging the Nazi heavy water plants.

There was substantial evidence that the shipyards were being directly used in the war, as were Nazi heavy water facilities. The Geneva convention says that people are civillians until proven otherwise, hence you don't bomb facilities that you're not sure about.

On another note, why not simply hand the evidence over to the U.N. and let them sort it out. All indications are that the site was nowhere near completion, hence not a threat. There was plenty of time to sort it out without blowing anything up. It's not going anywhere, hence if the UN fails to act on the evidence you can always blow it up tomorrow.

Kmarion wrote:

A nation with an undisclosed nuclear program bombed a nation with an undisclosed nuclear program. As they say in Vegas..it's a wash.

The difference is that as Syria hadn't yet introduced nuclear fuel to their reactor, they were under no legal obligation to declare it's existance under the NPT yet. Syria didn't break the NPT. Israel didn't sign the NPT.