Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA
We fight them over there and over here apparently...

Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats
When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

Last month, Specialist Hall and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group, filed suit in federal court in Kansas, alleging that Specialist Hall’s right to be free from state endorsement of religion under the First Amendment had been violated and that he had faced retaliation for his views. In November, he was sent home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers.
...
To Specialist Hall and other critics of the military, the guidelines have done little to change a culture they say tilts heavily toward evangelical Christianity. Controversies have continued to flare, largely over tactics used by evangelicals to promote their faith. Perhaps the most high-profile incident involved seven officers, including four generals, who appeared, in uniform and in violation of military regulations, in a 2006 fund-raising video for the Christian Embassy, an evangelical Bible study group.
...
Complaints include prayers “in Jesus’ name” at mandatory functions, which violates military regulations, and officers proselytizing subordinates to be “born again.” After getting the complainants’ unit and command information, Mr. Weinstein said, he calls his contacts in the military to try to correct the situation.
...
Specialist Hall came to atheism after years as a Christian. He was raised Baptist by his grandmother in Richlands, N.C., a town of less than 1,000 people. She read the Bible to him every night, and he said he joined the Army “to make something of myself.”

“I thought going to Iraq was right because we had God on our side,” he said in an interview near Fort Riley.

In the summer of 2005, after his first deployment to Iraq, Specialist Hall became friends with soldiers with atheist leanings. Their questions about faith prompted him to read the Bible more closely, which bred doubts that deepened over time.
...
pecialist Hall said he did not advertise his atheism. But his views became apparent during his second deployment in 2006. At a Thanksgiving meal, someone at his table asked everyone to pray. Specialist Hall did not join in, explaining to a sergeant that he did not believe in God. The sergeant got angry, he said, and told him to go to another table.
...
In November 2007, Specialist Hall was sent home early from Iraq after being repeatedly threatened by other soldiers. “I caution you that although your ‘legal’ issues are yours and yours alone, I have heard many people disagree with you, and this may be a cause for some of the perceived threats,” wrote Sgt. Maj. Kevin Nolan in Specialist Hall’s counseling for his departure.
...
Though with a different unit now at Fort Riley, Specialist Hall said the backlash had continued. He has a no-contact order with a sergeant who, without provocation, threatened to “bust him in the mouth.” Another sergeant allegedly told Specialist Hall that as an atheist, he was not entitled to religious freedom because he had no religion.
I think this is as clear an argument for the strict separation of church and state as can be found. In a country that has religious pluralism a pluralistic military is inevitable, however, the identification of patriotism and military service as somehow interacting with faith is incredibly destructive. Especially so if an idea forms that "God fights on our side" which will be twisted into "God fights on some of our side". If you're a service member who questions God's providence in the second case you are transformed into one "on the other side". This really is the end product of some (not necessarily in the military) trying to tie the WOT, a particular brand of American nationalism, and evangelicalism together.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina
That's pretty fucked up, but expected.  The military is a highly dogmatic environment.  Sometimes, this causes people to stop being logical and act like idiots.

I don't think this guy was asking for too much.  He just wanted basic respect.
Naturn
Deeds, not words.
+311|7029|Greenwood, IN
American ignorance rears its ugly head again...

Unfortunately for Hall hes going be haunted for his belief(Or Non-Belief) for the remainder of his tour.  I love my country to death but damn they embarrass me some times.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA
I also find it supremely ironic that the MAJ told them they were disgracing those who had died for the Constitution while threatening to bring charges against them because they're atheists.
imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX
It sounds like it is a few choice individuals that had a problem, not a systemic problem to the military.  It is not fair on either side to try to project the issues and problems of a single individual or group onto an entire organization.

I spent 8 years in the military in two seperate units, and saw nothing like this.  Yes, the military have chaplains, both Christian and Jewish; the two major faiths that make up the United States Military.  Yes, there are non-demominational prayers at official events.  But I never saw any kind of descrimination or targeting of athiests, agnostics, or pagans.  Yes, there are pagan faiths also represented in the military. 

This event sounds like a case of a highly religious person has he faith shaken, and is now overly sensitized to critique; and then he ran into an overzealous religious sergeant who targeted him personally.

This sounds an awful lot like some of the reports of people targeting gays in the military 10 years ago.   Or of the reports of people targeting women in the military 20 years ago.
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6992|Mountains of NC

you know I never saw shit like this in the corps ........... actually none of us were that much religious anyway

we had a jew and a black guy that did african weird shit but none of us gave them a hard time ....... all we cared about was that they can pull there own weight
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7166|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
God always fights on the side of the biggest battalion..
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

imortal wrote:

It sounds like it is a few choice individuals that had a problem, not a systemic problem to the military.  It is not fair on either side to try to project the issues and problems of a single individual or group onto an entire organization.

I spent 8 years in the military in two seperate units, and saw nothing like this.  Yes, the military have chaplains, both Christian and Jewish; the two major faiths that make up the United States Military.  Yes, there are non-demominational prayers at official events.  But I never saw any kind of descrimination or targeting of athiests, agnostics, or pagans.  Yes, there are pagan faiths also represented in the military. 

This event sounds like a case of a highly religious person has he faith shaken, and is now overly sensitized to critique; and then he ran into an overzealous religious sergeant who targeted him personally.

This sounds an awful lot like some of the reports of people targeting gays in the military 10 years ago.   Or of the reports of people targeting women in the military 20 years ago.
I know what you're saying, but I'd say the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is indicative that gay people really are targeted if discovered.
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6338|Glendale, CA
I really think that when people do things like that, they sort of punch the military ideas of "brotherhood" and yada yada full of holes.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7045|London, England
Wow. Send those fuckers to the Taliban, they belong with them.
imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX

Turquoise wrote:

imortal wrote:

It sounds like it is a few choice individuals that had a problem, not a systemic problem to the military.  It is not fair on either side to try to project the issues and problems of a single individual or group onto an entire organization.

I spent 8 years in the military in two seperate units, and saw nothing like this.  Yes, the military have chaplains, both Christian and Jewish; the two major faiths that make up the United States Military.  Yes, there are non-demominational prayers at official events.  But I never saw any kind of descrimination or targeting of athiests, agnostics, or pagans.  Yes, there are pagan faiths also represented in the military. 

This event sounds like a case of a highly religious person has he faith shaken, and is now overly sensitized to critique; and then he ran into an overzealous religious sergeant who targeted him personally.

This sounds an awful lot like some of the reports of people targeting gays in the military 10 years ago.   Or of the reports of people targeting women in the military 20 years ago.
I know what you're saying, but I'd say the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is indicative that gay people really are targeted if discovered.
This should be a seperate argument for a seperate thread, because I would have to dealve deep into other issues to resolve this.  The "don't ask, don't tell" policy was a cop out so President Clinton could have his progressive movement in his administration without completely alianating the military (which he did anyway.)  The entire premise was "homosexuality in the military is (still) illegal, but we will not target you if you don't flaunt it."  It did nothing to end the attitudes of people in the military, and ended up making homosexuals feel even more uneasy, in my opinion.

My point was that it seems that someone takes an isolated incident, of even a few incidents, and does their best to blow it way out of proportion in order to bring some perceived "injustice to the light of day."  The military is a popular target because a vast majority of people who report ther news have no idea of military life and can not even imagine how people can live that way.

Because people can not understand the military lifestyle (and there are some of those people here in this forum, too) they use their imagination, often to the detremint of real life conditions.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA
That most military personnel aren't like this goes without saying (indeed, it is so elemental that I figured it unnecessary to mention), my point being that in cases where you have senior personnel (and/or political figures) blurring the line between religion and policy it tends to filter down through the ranks.

If you have Lt. Gen. Boykin talking about the war on terror in religious terms and some other senior generals appearing at evangelical functions in uniform goes a long way towards creating a toxic atmosphere, especially if civilian leadership doesn't do much to enforce existing rules.
imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX

Masques wrote:

That most military personnel aren't like this goes without saying (indeed, it is so elemental that I figured it unnecessary to mention), my point being that in cases where you have senior personnel (and/or political figures) blurring the line between religion and policy it tends to filter down through the ranks.

If you have Lt. Gen. Boykin talking about the war on terror in religious terms and some other senior generals appearing at evangelical functions in uniform goes a long way towards creating a toxic atmosphere, especially if civilian leadership doesn't do much to enforce existing rules.
I am afraid we must mention that most military people are not like this, because (even on here) many will assume that they are.  People think wierd things.

I agree that it is in bad taste to appear at a religious function in uniform, because the act of being in uniform goes a long way to trying to suggests being there in your position with the military rather than as a citizen and person in your own right.

Oh, and +1, just because I like your sig.

EDIT: I am tired, and boy, does my spelling get out of control, sometimes.

Last edited by imortal (2008-04-26 14:04:52)

topthrill05
Member
+125|7002|Rochester NY USA
FFS ignorance is a bitch isn't it?
imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX
After thinking on it a bit more, I am curious as to the soldier's activities leading to this.  I know that people who radically change parts of their lives (people who quit smoking, born again christians) tend to have a brand new zeal when discussing the object of their change.  I wonder just what the soldier may be doing during or just prior to these events. 

Since the soldier is the one bringing the incidents to light, he may be shading the story to benifit himself.  It is only a natural thing to do to put yourself in the best light possible, is it not?
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6871|Chicago, IL
a true Christian does not criticize other's beliefs, or lack thereof.

However, I think he may be skewing the story, as there are thousands of jews, hindus, muslims, atheists, mystics, and even a few pagans in our armed forces, and very few complaints.


He probably ran into a pack of dickheads, and took it way too personally, they probably do it to everyone.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7114|Tampa Bay Florida
This Hall guy was definitely not taking it too personally.  Pieces of shit who accuse fellow soldiers of being un-American based on their religious views don't belong in society, let alone the military.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7196|PNW

Naturn wrote:

American ignorance rears its ugly head again...

Unfortunately for Hall hes going be haunted for his belief(Or Non-Belief) for the remainder of his tour.  I love my country to death but damn they embarrass me some times.
If the military is seriously that huge of a born-again proselytizing crowd, then how come I've seen so many uniformed Mormons (a faith that is often targeted even more than atheists)? People are too quick to fault an entire organization for the missteps of some representatives.

imortal wrote:

Yes, the military have chaplains, both Christian and Jewish; the two major faiths that make up the United States Military.  Yes, there are non-demominational prayers at official events.  But I never saw any kind of descrimination or targeting of athiests, agnostics, or pagans.  Yes, there are pagan faiths also represented in the military.
Muslim chaplains too, unless those are to be filed under pagan.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-04-26 15:58:57)

imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Naturn wrote:

American ignorance rears its ugly head again...

Unfortunately for Hall hes going be haunted for his belief(Or Non-Belief) for the remainder of his tour.  I love my country to death but damn they embarrass me some times.
If the military is seriously that huge of a born-again proselytizing crowd, then how come I've seen so many uniformed Mormons (a faith that is often targeted even more than atheists)? People are too quick to fault an entire organization for the missteps of some representatives.

imortal wrote:

Yes, the military have chaplains, both Christian and Jewish; the two major faiths that make up the United States Military.  Yes, there are non-demominational prayers at official events.  But I never saw any kind of descrimination or targeting of athiests, agnostics, or pagans.  Yes, there are pagan faiths also represented in the military.
Muslim chaplains too, unless those are to be filed under pagan.
Sorry, true. I only ever met jewish and christian chaplains.  I do think there are a few muslim chaplains.  And I do not know of any official pagan chaplains, I know they are recognized in the military and are allowerd to conduct their own ceremonies.
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6338|Glendale, CA
Muslums in the ermy?  Dang billy-bob, I thought thuh confaederacay won!

Seriously.  The fact that Muslims are in the US army is evidence against stereotypes of people who follow the Islamic faith.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6869|The Land of Scott Walker
Religious chaplains, check.  Pagan chaplains, check.  Wait, where are the atheist chaplains?
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6338|Glendale, CA

Stingray24 wrote:

Religious chaplains, check.  Pagan chaplains, check.  Wait, where are the atheist chaplains?
There are no atheist priests.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6869|The Land of Scott Walker
Precisely.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina
It looks to me like this guy is suing over harassment, not over a lack of "atheist" chaplains...  lol
imortal
Member
+240|7089|Austin, TX

FallenMorgan wrote:

Muslums in the ermy?  Dang billy-bob, I thought thuh confaederacay won!

Seriously.  The fact that Muslims are in the US army is evidence against stereotypes of people who follow the Islamic faith.
Well, that and the fact that in the quagmire of the '90s (Bosnia), we were unofficially rooting FOR the muslims (aka, the Bosnians) against the Serbs and Croats.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard