BF2S Forums It seems not even Obama can argue for socialism any longer.

Ilocano wrote:

So, what's the difference if Iowing and I are applying the same princiiples in our own country.  Why should we support those individuals who choose not to better themselves?  Who have not payed a dime into our society or provide anything of value?

Well if you don't want to I'm not stopping you.

My society however functions with these values at it's core. That is within my own society, you could define it as a sense of unity of sorts, I don't have such a thing in regards to Greece. Greece is a seperate entity to my society, it functions differently and, although maybe not to you - is very different from mine. An individual in my society is part of it. As long as he or she is part of the society the person in question will benefit from these values. The point of it all is to have the individual in question benefit from them and pay back into society at some point. We're not going to deprive people of medical care because they may have acted like idiots in the past.

There is still a lot that needs to be done in regards to the EU if I were to consider Greece an actual part of my society and be willing to do anything for them. Even if, it doesn't stop me from being disgusted at the way the greek government has gone through the past 3 or so decades.

Ofcourse it would be great if we could provide the same set of values for everyone on the entire planet but that is simply just not realistic nor practical. As I said, you're not spreading your constitutional values across the globe for exactly the same reason. There is nothing that binds you to people on the other side of the globe in that way.

Last edited by dayarath (2011-01-24 19:41:59)

Let me just go ahead and delete that part if thats the case

Ilocano wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I just find it sickening that they, the Greeks, are blaming everyone but themselves. Looking through the headlines it would seem blame is all they do now.

Goldman Sachs did fuck their bonds though.

And yet Fortune ranks them as one of the best places to work for. /facepalm.

They blame Berlin for much of their economic ills.

dayarath wrote:

By the way, how are your hospitals not going bankrupt by the bushes if they're not allowed to refuse a patient?

Most people are honest. And the cost of care for those that aren't get passed on to the rest of us, hence our high insurance premiums.

dayarath wrote:

so basically the same 'leechers and moochers' that would be living off of our socialized healthcare are doing so in pretty much the same manner in the US, except via your insurance?

Yes.

Edit - I used to get phone calls on a near weekly basis to collect a debt owed by a woman that had given the local hospital false information.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-01-24 19:53:31)

dayarath wrote:

By the way, how are your hospitals not going bankrupt by the bushes if they're not allowed to refuse a patient?

... and this is the insanity of this argument.. no matter how you look at it.

"America, did you know that even if you don't have health insurance, you can go to the hospital and they'll still treat you. You don't need health insurance, America! That's how good our system is! But NOW, they want to Federalize the health care system so that when you get sick you can just go to a hospital and they'l...l treat you. Where are we going to get money for that, America?"

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes.

Why did I just have this entire discussion if that's the case... were doing the exact same thing

You're NHS is only superficially different from our current insurance based system. You pay it via taxes, we pay it via premiums (and taxes ). We simply have the illusion of choice when it comes to health care providers. Insurance is a commodity and you essentially buy the same product no matter who you deal with. Some insurance companies have larger networks, some have better customer service, but they all provide the same basic coverage. Now, where our system differs from yours is that people have the option to pay for only what they want. If someone here doesn't want dental or optometry coverage they don't have to pay for it. If someone wants to pay more to have access to the top cutting edge oncology departments they can do that as well. We simply have more options when it comes to customizing our coverage rather than your one-size-fits-all approach. Insurance here is not that expensive. It is if you want top notch care, yes, but basically anyone who can't afford it qualifies for 'free' healthcare via medicaid anyway. If they say they can't afford care it's because their priorities are out of whack and they've misallocated their resources.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-01-24 20:04:11)

JohnG@lt wrote:

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes.

Why did I just have this entire discussion if that's the case... were doing the exact same thing

You're NHS is only superficially different from our current insurance based system. You pay it via taxes, we pay it via premiums (and taxes ). We simply have the illusion of choice when it comes to health care providers. Insurance is a commodity and you essentially buy the same product no matter who you deal with. Some insurance companies have larger networks, some have better customer service, but they all provide the same basic coverage. Now, where our system differs from yours is that people have the option to pay for only what they want. If someone here doesn't want dental or optometry coverage they don't have to pay for it. If someone wants to pay more to have access to the top cutting edge oncology departments they can do that as well. We simply have more options when it comes to customizing our coverage rather than your one-size-fits-all approach. Insurance here is not that expensive. It is if you want top notch care, yes, but basically anyone who can't afford it qualifies for 'free' healthcare via medicaid anyway. If they say they can't afford care it's because their priorities are out of whack and they've misallocated their resources.

John i think the most European plans have the option to add coverage as well. I remember campoe once saying that he pays for a premiums service.

That is what i thought. We are comparing safety nets I think.

Kmar wrote:

John i think the most European plans have the option to add coverage as well. I remember campoe once saying that he pays for a premiums service.

Well, I don't know what all the fuss is about then. I see the current arguments as nothing more than a philosophical resist against government takeover. There would be no net benefit over our current system if the feds were to try to implement a NHS type system. It would just mean more political influence and corruption spreading into the private sector.

Edit - Ahh, yes I do. The system would radically change because our progressive tax system would mean everyone pays different amounts for the same services whereas everyone pays (about) the same amount now. Yeah, I can't agree with that at all.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-01-24 20:31:45)

So you don't think people that are more likely to use health care should pay a commensurate amount in premiums? As a smoker I pay higher premiums. I accept this and think it's warranted. I expect the same when I'm older and I reach the age of regular prostate exams and heart attacks etc.

Kmar wrote:

Of course I do. But added risk and pre-existing conditions aren't always the reason for the inconsistency. As I said before it's a scam. My rate more than doubled over the course of a year for no reason. Literally. That is what prompted me to shop for a lower rate. There is no excuse for this type of behavior. Yes, thank god for a free market that allowed me to find a better RATE. The insurance companies get their money one way or another. If your rate is lower they just jack up the premium you must pay before they start paying out in benefits. I've done the math up and down the board with every major carrier. In that respect it is the same. Which pretty much adds up to price fixing.

btw, i advise staying away from insurance brokers. If you have any kind of math and reasoning skills you can do the job just as well, or in my situation, better.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/155858- … ns-rank-86

Just an FYI, their profit margin is lower than most other industries... It's not the health insurance companies fault your rates go up. Blame the hospitals, the nurses unions and everything else that goes into health care. All that shit gets passed on to you.