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Tyferra wrote:

I want to tell you a story about a friend of mine. His name is Shahed Yassai, (I think that's how you spell his last name, it's how it sounds anyway.) I think it would be obvious to you by now that Shahed is a Muslim. His family have been in New Zealand a fairly long time and Shahed has a pretty solid Kiwi accent, but his family is still Muslim.
The only class I really shared with Shahed was english, but I would always see him around the school. He ws always happy to talk to anyone. His popularity was such that he was elected to be the student representitive on the Board of Trustees, i.e, he was elected to be the principal's boss. He was also a prefect.
He was always funny, the English teacher on many occasions teased him about being Iranian, so did everyone else, so did he, (all in good fun you must understand. Something about 'Camel eggs.")
His family never told him to stop talking to "infidels," or to convert or kill them.

Maybe in your research you have discovered that Allah said this or that, but do you realise that times change? You spoke of something being "stuck in a 9th century mode of thinking." Some of the Koran is, and most of the stuff that is stuck in the 9th century has stayed there.
Do Christians act any differently? Have you ever read through the bible and found all the contradictions and hate? In older versions of the bible it still applauds persecution of Jews, (pre 1930s.) Christianity has changed because people didn't like some of it. If a King or Queen didn't want something happening in society, it was as simple as changing the bible. A fine example of this is Henry VIII. He started th whole Anglican Church just so he could divorce his wife!
Christianity has changed now, so why the hell shouldn't Islam be the same?

Another friend, this time a friend of my Dad, is a recent immigrant from Iraq. He migrated before the war but was a high member of the Imperial Guard. He was tortured by Saddam's secret police, even though his father was quite close to Saddam. He is also a Muslim, and a thoroughly interesting and nice guy. If he was told not to make friends with non-muslims or kill or convert them, he sure as hell is ignoring that piece of advice. He is friendly to everyone, and fitting in quite well to his new country, (athough he is leaving to go back to Iraq soon to fetch his family.)
If someone who was a member of the Iraqi Imperial Guard, a man who was fairly close to Saddam himself, and avid Muslim is such a nice guy, can you please tell me what the fuck you are afraid of?

It's fucking sad dude, get over it.

Go and read all of my past posts (as you obviously haven't done) and your answer lies within.

Xanthpi.
All that stuff about stones running away seeming odd to you. You openly mock peoples beliefs because of this. Well how about this.

Stoners wrote the Bible.

Oh yes, it's fairly obvious when you look at the damn thing.
A burning bush talking to Moses, telling him to oppose establishment? It's like a fucking biblical Woodstock message!
People walking on water? Stoners!
The Virgin Mary? Bullshit. Drug Rape.
The loaves and fishes story? I don't know if you've ever been stoned but even sand can look appitising.
Seeing halucinations? It can't get more obvious than that. Fuck Joseph and his amazing technicolour dream-bong.

How dare you mock someone elses faith so hypocritically without looking at, (what I suppose,) is more suited to you.

You say that Islam has tried to 'take over the world' so many times.
Alexander the Great
Julius Caesar
Most British kings and Queens
Yet these people don't deserve your ridicule?

You don't like the idea of the Prophet being what you would call a Pedophile.
WAKE UP!
Those was different times! People didn't have the same great judgement and ethics that you now posess! I could quote half a dozen great men who have done the same in those times and later! Having sexual relations with young girls and young boys was common and accepted. Try not to look at those times with a 21st century eye.

Finally, I'm afraid that no, I didn't read all of your posts. Your prejudiced, unfounded and stupid fears are far beyond me, so I admit that I gave up after only reading most of them. You may have noticed that I have been fairly calm up to this point but your ignorance and your belief that you know everything there is to know sickens me too much. Get out there, expand your mind, and get a fucking clue!

Last edited by Tyferra (2005-12-21 13:36:09)

Erkut.hv wrote:

You know what I find amusing, yet disturbing at the same time? The fact that 99.9% of the people defending Islam from "persecutiion", are non-muslims. Where is the Muslim outrage over ow their spiritual brothers and sisters are behaving? I see no Muslim anti-violence marches, or "not in our name" rallies.

Where are all the islamic groups at? Shouldn't they be defending their faith? Notice when someone attacks Christians, we (Christians) seem to be the only ones to rally to our defense? I find it grossly hypocritical that people will defend a religion responsible for a majority of the strife and war on this planet currently underway, yet nobody lifts a finger to defend Christianity.

When a US Soldier, or Coalition soldier is killed by an IED, where is the Muslim outrage? When an innocent civilian is beheaded on video to the chants of "Allah hu akbar", where are the cries for justice, the anger of being represented by animals? I don't see it, do you?

I could see possibly being tolerant of Muslims when they start to reign in their dissidents, protest, march, ffs do something!!! The fact they do nothing is just as bad or worse than endorsing the behavior of their "holy warriors".

Stand up and decry it, because in your silence we see cooperation and sympathy for those animals, and it doesn't sit well.

I agree.  I don't understand why you don't see muslim leaders stand up against what terrorists do in the name of Islam.  I think recently some Imams finally came out, but for the most part they just stand mute.

Erkut.hv wrote:

You know what I find amusing, yet disturbing at the same time? The fact that 99.9% of the people defending Islam from "persecutiion", are non-muslims. Where is the Muslim outrage over ow their spiritual brothers and sisters are behaving? I see no Muslim anti-violence marches, or "not in our name" rallies.

Where are all the islamic groups at? Shouldn't they be defending their faith? Notice when someone attacks Christians, we (Christians) seem to be the only ones to rally to our defense? I find it grossly hypocritical that people will defend a religion responsible for a majority of the strife and war on this planet currently underway, yet nobody lifts a finger to defend Christianity.

When a US Soldier, or Coalition soldier is killed by an IED, where is the Muslim outrage? When an innocent civilian is beheaded on video to the chants of "Allah hu akbar", where are the cries for justice, the anger of being represented by animals? I don't see it, do you?

I could see possibly being tolerant of Muslims when they start to reign in their dissidents, protest, march, ffs do something!!! The fact they do nothing is just as bad or worse than endorsing the behavior of their "holy warriors".

Stand up and decry it, because in your silence we see cooperation and sympathy for those animals, and it doesn't sit well.

There was actually a "Muslims against terrorism" march somewhere in the states a few months ago. Just ten Muslims showed up. There were more press photographers there than protesters.

In Islam, a Muslim is not allowed to take the side of an infidel. All the true Muslims support the terrorists - they have to. The pseudo-Muslims on the fringes are split, although most still support the terrorists. There's a collective brainwashing going on amongst Muslims - whatever the Imam says is taken as fact.

Tyferra wrote:

Xanthpi.
All that stuff about stones running away seeming odd to you. You openly mock peoples beliefs because of this. Well how about this.

Stoners wrote the Bible.

Oh yes, it's fairly obvious when you look at the damn thing.
A burning bush talking to Moses, telling him to oppose establishment? It's like a fucking biblical Woodstock message!
People walking on water? Stoners!
The Virgin Mary? Bullshit. Drug Rape.
The loaves and fishes story? I don't know if you've ever been stoned but even sand can look appitising.
Seeing halucinations? It can't get more obvious than that. Fuck Joseph and his amazing technicolour dream-bong.

Like I've already said, the old "But Christianity...." argument doesn't work. Islam is still utter rubbish even if it's competition is full of rubbish too.

Tyferra wrote:

How dare you mock someone elses faith so hypocritically without looking at, (what I suppose,) is more suited to you.

I'm not mocking it hypocritically. I don't believe in Islam, nor do I believe in absurdities, so I'm not being hypocritical when I mock it.

Tyferra wrote:

You say that Islam has tried to 'take over the world' so many times.
Alexander the Great
Julius Caesar
Most British kings and Queens
Yet these people don't deserve your ridicule?

No I didn't say "Islam has tried to 'take over the world' so many times." I stated that it is Islam's goal to rule the world. If you'd like to start a thread about those people, be my guest. My comments in this thread are about Islam.

Tyferra wrote:

You don't like the idea of the Prophet being what you would call a Pedophile.
WAKE UP!
Those was different times! People didn't have the same great judgement and ethics that you now posess! I could quote half a dozen great men who have done the same in those times and later! Having sexual relations with young girls and young boys was common and accepted. Try not to look at those times with a 21st century eye.

Here's where you've dug a hole for yourself.

Muhammad, as the Prophet of Islam and the best example of man ever to have lived (apparently), was Allah's chosen man on Earth.
Now, even though you are correct in that it used to be more common to have sex with underage girls, it has never been beneficial for a girl of nine to have sex. Even though Aishah's body was mature enough to menstruate, she was not fully grown either physically or mentally.
As Allah's man on Earth, I would have expected Muhammad to have known this, seeing as how he was the most morally pure man to have ever lived. If he had not have known that having sex with Aisha was wrong, then Allah might have said to Muhammad "now Muhammad, even though you want to have sex with a nine year old girl, it will not be good for her therefore you must not do it". But this didn't happen.

So either:
1. Allah is an evil god who allowed his prophet to have sex with an underage girl, knowing it was bad for her, and therefore condeming millions of other barely pubescent girls throughout time to a similar fate.
2. Allah doesn't exist and Muhammad was not who he said he was. He was infact a madman.

So which one is it?

In any case, Muslims still believe that Muhammad was right to have sex with Aishah at that age because how could he be wrong?

Muslims believe that Islam is an eternal religion which has been in existence since the beginning of time and will be there until the end of time and that all the laws contained within, and the examples set by Muhammad, are also eternal and can never be changed. So for Muhammad to have sex with a nine year old girl is an example of what will be acceptable forever.
This is why, when the Islamic Revolution happened in Iran in 1979, the age of concent (or rather, age at which a girl could not refuse sex from her husband) was set to nine years old.
This is also why some rich Arabs go to India to buy nine year old girls as wives.

Tyferra wrote:

Finally, I'm afraid that no, I didn't read all of your posts. Your prejudiced, unfounded and stupid fears are far beyond me, so I admit that I gave up after only reading most of them. You may have noticed that I have been fairly calm up to this point but your ignorance and your belief that you know everything there is to know sickens me too much. Get out there, expand your mind, and get a fucking clue!

Hmmmm I've come to the only conclusion which is obvious, and that is that you are not very bright, or that you are very young and have never had to think much before.
You have proven this several times just in your last paragraph.
Firstly, you have not read all my posts so you haven't a clue as to whether my fears are ignorant, unfounded and stupid, nor have you studied Islam, and yet you state that they are.
Your arguments are ill thought-out.
You have stated that you believe that I know everything. You should know that there is not a single person on this planet who knows everything. There is not even a single one who knows everything there is to know about Islam.
So get out there and expand your mind. Read a book, and make it the Qu'ran.

j5f5ff wrote:

xanthpi wrote:

I feel sorry for the people in Islamic countries. Even if they want nothing to do with Islam, they risk torture and death if they publically state they no longer wish to be a Muslim.

if these people are lucky, the become..... IMIGRANTS!    how can you want to turn them away?

I've never said that I want to turn non-Muslims away. Go and read my previous posts because they contain the answers to your question and would have saved your time and mine.

B.Schuss wrote:

@xanthpi. sorry, if this has already been mentioned before, but are you an US citizen ?

No.

B.Schuss wrote:

If so, what is your stance on the war in iraq ?

Good idea, but not fought properly. Wars should be fought by generals, not politicians.

B.Schuss wrote:

From what you've said so far, I would guess you oppose it, because Bush is trying to implement a western democracy in an islamic country, which you probably don't approve of..

Democracy is the best thing which could happen to the Middle East. Democracies never go to war against one another. Will democracy happen? Who knows. True Muslims do not want democracy as that is alien to Islam.

B.Schuss wrote:

your thoughts in islam are obviously well thought out, but what are the consequences ? Are you advocating that we should fight islam in general ?

Yes. We (non-Muslim people) have been fighting Islam ever since it was invented in the 7th century. Europe very nearly fell to Islamic rule several times. If Islam had conquered Europe then we wouldn't be using these computers now - they never would have been invented in the first place (Islam abhors invention. The only thing ever invented of any use by Islam was the optical lens. Even then, it was up to the Europeans do come up for a use for it).
In each country there needs to be a public enquiry into Islamic ideology. Just as Nazism is banned in certain countries, so should Islam be. If Muslims want to live Islamically then they should be given a walled-off tract of land in one place, without access to weapons, travel or technology. They can then spend their lives happily praising Allah and not bothering the rest of us.

B.Schuss wrote:

from your words, one could draw the conclusion that all muslims are the natural enemy of the west ( or vice versa ).

Make sure you have understood the definition of Muslim. There are 1.2 billion people in the world who would classify themselves as Muslims, of which perhaps only 300 million are actually Muslim, the rest being pseudo-Muslim or apostates. All true Muslims are the enemy, as we know the ideology they follow.

B.Schuss wrote:

Personally, I am not so worried about the threat islam / the muslim world poses to the western civilizations.

Well you should be.

B.Schuss wrote:

looking back in recent history, most larger conflicts seem to have been caused by western nations, i.e. non-muslims.

Look further back in history then. The greatest genocide in history was caused during the Islamic conquest of India, in which 80-200 million people were murdered for having the wrong religion.

B.Schuss wrote:

I'll admit  that those conflicts were not religiously motivated ( although not all religions were directly opposed to them during that time either ).
Still, I don't see any islamic nation that currently poses a threat to western civilization as a whole.

Thats because Islam is an ideology which passes national boundaries. This new world war is not one like the first two in which country fought country. This is a war waged by civilians against national interests.

B.Schuss wrote:

There are religious tensions, true, but those have always existed ( between various religions, not just islam and christianity ) and have never led to a total extinction of the west so far.

Are you only going to become alarmed only by the total extinction of the West are are you going to wise up in order that you can prevent even the tiniest extiction?

B.Schuss wrote:

There are some terrorist organizations that are based on islam beliefs ( such as al quaida and various subgroups ) but those operate outside of national boundaries. Nothing new here either.

So if it's nothing new then it's nothing to be affraid of then, right?

B.Schuss wrote:

You seem worried that islam alone could one day be the uniting force which will lead to a joint effort from all muslims to take over world domination. Personally, I doubt that will happen. As you have pointed out yourself, islamic nations are more busy fighting each other and I also believe the various forms of islam prevent most subgroups from co-operating with each other ( as demonstrated during the iraq elections these days ).

It is the goal of Islam to form a Caliphate (single Islamic state), whose aim it is to spread that Caliphate to cover the entire Earth. In Islam, there are only two states - the Dar ul Islam (land of Islam) and the Dar ul Harb (land of war). It is incumbent on every Muslim to first form then Caliphate then wage total war on the Dar ul Harb until it becomes the Dar ul Islam.
The Caliphate could never win such a fight, but the damage it could cause would be counted in the hundreds of millions of deaths. I'd prefer to try and avoid that if at all possible.

B.Schuss wrote:

this might one day change, but this planet has had a history of various religions dominating its greatest empires during the last 5000 years. In the end, every empire fell.

And along the way, misery was caused at every point. We live now in an age of relative enlightnement. We have democracy and the rule of law; people know how to live in peace. It would be a shame that all that was spoiled by some primitive fools who would like to take us back to a 7th century desert way of life.

I have way more to add but I have to go and finish my Christmas shopping, so apologies for the short reply.

Last edited by xanthpi (2005-12-22 05:58:21)

First of all xanthpi, who might you be to say who a true muslim is? You base it on a single sentence in the Quran. The truth is thatt you can justify any argument by taking out small sentences here and there from any religious book and say: "here is my proof, read this and this sentence and you'll clearly see it". You have not proven anything really. I have a close friend that is from Palestine, a really nice guy. Even if he is a muslim he never asked me about my personal beliefs. Actually he knowes that I am an atheist. Has he hurt or been unfriendly towards me for that? No. And don't start saying that he isn't a true muslim. He follows the islamic teachings as good as he can. To be a part of a religion you don't need to follo every old rule in the book. According to your reasoning even the pope wouldn't be a true christian. And besides how christian is it to buy expensive gifts for christmas while millions of PEOPLE of all religions starve to death around the world. I feel sorry that you feel so much hate towards people of other religions and races. This may come as a surpriseto you but there really is nice people from Africa, South America and even your object of hate: Middle East. bringing upp old quotes from Winston Churchill isn't in anyway relevant. This man though that even democracy wasn't that OK and he utterly disliked Mahatma Ghandi. We should reflect on the future not on the past. Nuking someone may not be the right way to a stable society. You say that Mohammed was a madman? What about Jesus then? He claimed that not only was he a son of God but also God. To christians this is not weird but for me (an atheist) it is... We can debate this issue til the end of time and even then not reach any closer to an agreement... At least it seems that the same ol' arguments are used all over again.

// A peaceful and tolerant person

SharkyMcshark wrote:

xanthpi, I am finding it hard to believe that you are actually believing what you are writing! You make it seem that all muslims want to kill or convert us, and turn our states into Muslim controlled states.

Go back and read my other posts. You seem to not have "got it" thus far.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

You have repeatedly ignored numerous people giving you examples of Muslims who have happily integrated into society and are not radical, yet you seem not to want to believe that Muslims are normal people, just like you or I.

Go back and read my previous posts.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

If the above definition of Muslim is someone who believe that all non muslims are inferior, and wishes to turn the world into a Muslim controlled state, then I feel that we should only use the word Muslim in this thread to refer to super radical Muslims, the kind that xanthpi believes exists around every corner, and in every dark alley. You refer to Muslims war on non Muslims as the new world war.

The definition of a Muslim is not one that you or I can create. The definition comes from Islam itself.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

I have a question for you. Whichever religion that you have, do you live by every single one of its laws that are wirtten in its various tomes, do you abide by every single one of these rules?

I don't have a religion.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

The fact is that your labelling of the average Muslim is a labelling of only about 0.00001% of allMuslims in the world, with this kind of Muslim being the extremist. How many normal Muslims have you heard, or know, that live in your neighbourhood or in your district (or your 'hood as CJ from San Andreas would say) that vehemently support the creation of a Caliphate?

Go back and read my previous posts. The answer is there.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

On a side note does anyone else know that Mary was actually 14 when the baby Jesus was conceived? I heard this a while ago, and there is a chance that it may be false, but I do believe that my memory is still functioning.

That has nothing to do with this discussion. Go make a thread about Christianity if you wish.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

Maybe, xanthpi, if you actually met some Muslims that live in your area you would be able to get it into you that they do not want to take over the world. That is just needless scare mongering .

Go back and read my previous posts. It will save you from wasting your time bringing up points which have already been covered.

SharkyMcshark wrote:

Oh, and merry christmas everyone!!

As the creators of South Park say "everyone should celebrate Christmas because it's the best holiday".

I'll simply say this again...(I Posted in other threads)

A GREAT PLAN

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'" - Robin  Williams

Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan . . . what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one plan for peace. "Books, not Bombs" won't work. The head mullahs won't let anyone read them. If they do, they poke their eyes out.

Here's the plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past &present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them 'good old boys'. We will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan ??

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

I'll simply say this again...(I Posted in other threads)

A GREAT PLAN

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp

Also, strict implementation of any of those would cause havoc in the US.

Last edited by FeloniousMonk (2005-12-27 15:57:00)

I don't even have the time to read the full thread, but I'm sure many of my views have already been expressed by others.

A big issue I have, is when it comes to punishment for crimes.

An illegal is drinking and driving, hits someone, resulting in the sober fella's death.  Jose is deported, and will most likely be back within a few months.  You and I...different story if we were that drunk driver.


I believe anyone who comes here (legally), works hard, pays his taxes, etc... has every right to be here.  Babies born here, to illegal parents, are not citizens in my eyes.  They're as illegal as the parents.  Unfortunately the 14th amendment doesn't agree with me.