fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6941|Menlo Park, CA

Sanjaya wrote:

ZOMG LIBERALS!!!!1111111

Fadedsteve, you above all need to really take a look at reality. It's been lost for awhile. The US is not invincible, like it or not.
I am very in tune with reality Sanjaya (btw he got booted off that stupid show, thank god!).  Whats been lost? The will of the Democrats and the media?? Sure, the war was lost with them before we went into Iraq!

I have never said that the USA is invincible. . . .don't put words in my mouth!

We are as vulnerable as anyone else. . . Which makes it even more worth the while to stay vigilant in the face of these butchers (terrorists/insurgents)!  If we don't, all we are going to get is a repeat of history. . . .

Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-04-19 23:07:12)

Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6677

Kmarion wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

I'm not sure how we provided opportunity -- care to elaborate? The ipso facto war we fought can hardly be considered an opportunity creating endeavor.  Due to well ALL THE KILLINGS being a consequence of an illegal invasion. Yes its true, it was illegal ;( poo.
Sure, we brought them a true democracy, equal rights, and an opportunity to stand with the rest of the world. We lifted sanctions that had been imposed by the UN under their leaders defiance of over fourteen years. The majority of the killings you speak of came in the form of Iraqi on Iraqi. Blame (heaven forbid) falls on the murders, who while protesting an occupation decided the best way to object would be to kill their brothers..

Now you tell me who lost.
Kmarion, we actually allowed provisions in their constitution that set BACK their rights. Especially for women. Believe it or not, Hussein was a fairly liberal guy when it came to that.
Elamdri
The New Johnnie Cochran
+134|7097|Peoria

Masques wrote:

It's astounding, really. It's like a whole population held captive by their insecurity and fears. Fears that are nearly always overstated.
You do realize that is the purpose of terrorism right?
Elamdri
The New Johnnie Cochran
+134|7097|Peoria

k30dxedle wrote:

You know what? I don't think we want to win this for the sake of the Iraqis. Not by a long shot. If we cared that much, we would've taken Saddam out back in '91. No, it would seem like winning...it's for American pride. I suppose some of us want to keep up the winning streak - we were on the winning team in the Great War, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf I, and by God, we're going to win this one so we can brag to our grandkids about how we kicked their sorry Arabic asses.

Or not. Perhaps Humility 101 is in order.
We won Vietnam?
Dan Havok
Member
+14|6879

Superslim wrote:

Korea wasn't a loss, it was a stalemate ending with a peace treaty
by neo-con standards thats a loss, only because it didn't end in "victory"
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|7125|Belgium

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

How nice. The liberals gave Iraqi's the win.

Lets all start learning FUCKING ARABIC!!!

ALL HAIL Al qaeda!!!!!!! ALL HAIL Al qaeda!!!!!!!


لأ حأيل ألقعدأ

Fucking liberals
Are you sure you're not a script writer for Stephen Colbert? You should hear yourself.
Its Sarcasm Dude. I'de never give up to Iraq. Most America-loving republicans wouldn't

I dont See how any of that sounded like it came from a democrat
What are you and other republicans still doing at home, you think you can win the war whining at the dems? Go to Iraq yourself and make a change!
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6823|Kyiv, Ukraine
You can't win or lose an occupation, by definition.  Its not a damned football game.  Occupations have 2 realistic results:

1) Withdrawal of the occupying force.

2)  Annexation of the target country.
       a)  Direct annexation - The country falls under total administrative control of the invading power.
       b)  Indirect annexation - A puppet government is left in place friendly to the invading power.

Modern history is full of examples from each case, especially the post-WW2 era.   The US chose almost universally the Indirect Annexation option.  But, the cultures being markedly similar between Germany-US and Japan-US, this proved to be a more or less smooth transition.  The Soviet Union chose a combination of Direct and Indirect annexation, directly annexing bordering neighbors (Ukraine, Georgia, etc) while Indirectly annexing satellite states (such as Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, etc).  China went exclusively for direct annexation of Tibet.  France and Britain actually bucked the trend by total withdrawal from previously annexed territories.

Right now the US is failing because it is not pursuing definitively any 1 of these policies.  We are extremely unfocused and dishonest in what we had hoped to accomplish, and the goals being set aren't realistic by any means.  What does "winning" mean?  What is the benchmark for success?  Does the game end and a score come up at the end of 10 years and say - America 4540 points, Insurgents 3400 points, Iraqi people 60 points!  At best, you could say we invented a new strategy called "Corporate Annexation" in which oil shills are installed as figureheads while contractors are paid to do not much to run the country's infrastructure.  Meanwhile, the US troops have no clear mission except to stay alive, with an occaisional "Go get 'em!" mission thrown in for body count to raise that magic "winning score."

Or, if you want to say the goals were the following:
Enrich contractors and suppliers of war material
Multiply potential terrorists to perpetuate a "War on Terror"
Create a profitable environment for oil producers
Removal of a major enemy of both Iran and Al-Qaeda

Then we succeeded admirably.

The fact remains though that a majority of American people voted overwhelmingly to elect officials that would end the occupation in 2006 and investigate the corruption that lead to it.  The Democrats are taking their popular mandate very seriously.  To disparage a group of elected officials for performing the job exactly as the electorate wishes them to do it, methodically and responsibly, is to rail against the very foundation of our democratic society.  The Republicans had a narrow popular mandate for 6 years and had complete control of Congress and the Executive for that time.  9/11 gave them even more popular support than usual.  They squandered this opportunity horribly and at great cost to our treasury, our democracy, our reputation, and the lives of our people in uniform.  They failed miserably in their duties as responsible stewards of our great nation and enriched themselves and their friends in the process, and then promulgated a propoganda war to cover themselves.  This propoganda war still works on the bottom 30% of society, but is no longer effective on anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together.  The American people voted for a change in the last election, let them have it.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7140|Tampa Bay Florida

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

How nice. The liberals gave Iraqi's the win.

Lets all start learning FUCKING ARABIC!!!

ALL HAIL Al qaeda!!!!!!! ALL HAIL Al qaeda!!!!!!!


لأ حأيل ألقعدأ

Fucking liberals
LMFAO

ok, sure.  I think thats what you WANT the world to be like.  BC its obvious as hell you have no clue what youre talking about...

If you respond, please explain what the fuck you think winning this war would mean.  And be specific, please.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7140|Tampa Bay Florida
Gorilla, stop using facts supported by examples to support your opinion.  It makes the neocons heads spin.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,074|7222|PNW

Dan Havok wrote:

dems can not be responsible for losing the war.  i blame the guy who said he won before it was over

http://blogs.chron.com/whitehouse/archi … ission.jpg
My memory's not too clear, but wasn't that speech about a single operation? Doesn't constitute the entire war...

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'd just like to point out for the record m3thod that I foresaw practically all of this. Right back to the 'anthrax vial in the UN' charade. Yet nobody listened to this Irishman - Ireland: living proof that no-one wants any higher powers dabbling in their affairs, arriving unwelcomed or overstaying what little welcome they had, that people are prepared to resist to the bitter end with the most inhumane methods available and that hatred is the hardest emotion to overcome.
Saddam had a way of dealing with "resistance".. what was called again? Oh yea, mustard gas. I know, none of our business.
None of our business is right. Business of neighbouring nations maybe but not us. Why be so selective if you're going to be an interventionist anyway? Why not North Korea? Why not Zimbabwe? Why not poor Chechnya?
For the record, a lot of us already know that most wars are waged for resources, or security thereof, and some are just fine with it. Not going to make angels out of anyone, but it sure beats going to war just for the hell of it.

Masques wrote:

So if Democrats' simply stating that the war is lost actually constitutes a loss, then all the administration needs to do to "win" (which has never actually been defined) is to clap louder...right?
Well, the Democrats want a clear and absolute defeat before next election, even if it's merely circulated by common media.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-20 22:50:50)

An Enlarged Liver
Member
+35|7193|Backward Ass Kansas
Sad but true.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6998|San Diego, CA, USA

Superslim wrote:

Korea wasn't a loss, it was a stalemate ending with a peace treaty
The Korean war never ended...an Armistice agreement was signed (temporary suspension of hostilities by agreement between the opponents).

Source: TEXT OF THE KOREAN WAR ARMISTICE AGREEMENT: July 27, 1953

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