ATG
Banned
+5,233|6979|Global Command
WTF, follow me on this one:

Today as we witness the carnage in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Somalia, the troubles in Lebanon, Israel and Palestine, everyone’s attention is focused on the gathering of the American Armada in the Persian Gulf and the possibility of US military attack on Iran. President Bush and his staff go out of their way to emphasize that they are doing their best to “reassure” their “allies” in the Persian Gulf (mainly Saudi Arabia) that the United States is there to protect them against the evil Persians. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda’s ideology is spreading unchecked throughout the Muslim world. The actions of the Bush administration are helping to spread this ideology. United States is actually protecting the source of this malaise and helping it to spread.

Until the rise of House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism was a very small sect and was rejected by many scholars in Sunni world. The religion of the House of Saud is Wahabism. When in 1924-1925, Ibn Saud with the help of the British defeated Hashemite (another tribe in Arabia) and captured Mecca, Wahhabism became the official religion of Arabia, or what is now called Saudi Arabia (named after Ibn Saud).

According to Said K. Aburish, when Ibn Saud captured Ryadth, his Wahhabi followers burned 1200 people to death. By 1932 over 400000 people were killed or injured, over 40000 were publicly executed and over 350000 people had one of their limbs amputated. During this time close to 1 million people fled Saudi Arabia. All this in a country with a population at the time of 4 million people.[ 1] Such barbarity on such a scale had never been seen in Arabia before.

This was the birth pangs of Wahhabism as the state religion. The masterminds of the 9/11, the suicide bombers of in Spain, or England or Indonesia are all Wahhabis. The gruesome beheading of hostages, mass killing of civilians by bombs and spreading of terror is nothing new to these people. What is new is the financial and material support that they are receiving.

Schizophrenic Arabia

The House of Saud’s relationship with Wahhabis is symbiotic. The rulers rely on the religious establishment for legitimacy and support, while the religious establishment relies on the government for maintaining and spreading its ideology.



“The Associated Press reports that "key Iraqi officials" say private Saudi citizens are providing millions of dollars in funding to Sunni insurgents in Iraq. Much of the money is used to buy weapons.
    The Iraqi officials interviewed for the article say most of the money comes from "private Islamic donations inside Saudi Arabia, known as zakat." The zakat is one of the five pillars of Islam, and all Muslims are obliged to give it, primarily for the "poor and needy." Some Saudis know where the money goes, the officials say, but others give the money to Islamic clerics and don't know where it goes.
    The two Iraqi officials said that while some of the funding goes to Iraqi Sunni leaders, who then disburse it, other channels are being used to send money directly to insurgents. Among them are Iraqi drivers working on road links between Iraq and neighboring countries.
    Several drivers interviewed by the AP in several Middle East capitals said Saudis have been using religious events, like the annual hajj pilgrimage to Mecca and a smaller midyear pilgrimage, to send money into Iraq on buses that carry returning pilgrims.”[ 11]

Saudi Arabia’s involvement in the arming of the Somalia’s Islamic court was recorded by UN, yet no one said a word.

    “The Bush administration has acknowledged that Saudi Arabia was financing the Al Qaida-aligned regime in Somalia. Officials said Saudi Arabia has become a leading financier of the Islamic takeover of Somalia. The so-called Islamic Courts Union, headed by an Al Qaida commander wanted by the United States, has garnered most of its foreign support from Saudi Arabia and Yemen. "I don't want to say the Saudi government is supporting any particular [Islamic] court," Assistant Secretary of State Jendayi Frazer said. "But I do know that there is money coming in from Saudi Arabia.".”[ 12]

Their involvements with Taliban, their funding of Maddrassas in Pakistan and other places are also well known. Yet we see that United States is gathering an armada to threaten Iran and “protect” Saudi Arabia.
Forget conspiracy theories, the article makes the best case I have ever read that the United States government is actively working with radical Islamic extremists, for a as yet undefined yet no doubt evil end.

full article:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0702/S00089.htm
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6998|San Diego, CA, USA

ATG wrote:

Forget conspiracy theories, the article makes the best case I have ever read that the United States government is actively working with radical Islamic extremists, for a as yet undefined yet no doubt evil end.
full article:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0702/S00089.htm
You sir are an misguided, to say the least, if you think we are to believe that the United States is 'helping' or has anything to do with aiding these 'terrorists'. 

You are probably in the same camp that believes that the United States killed 3,000 of their own citizens on 9/11.
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7206|United States of America
Am I detecting some sarcasm to this?
Invaderzim
Chicken wing?
+49|6898|Newcastle NSW Australia
Well you kinda did give Osama weapons when Russia invader Afganastan in the past
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6677
someone hacked ATG's account.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6979|Global Command
I stopped being a Bush supporter about 8 months after 9-11 when I saw that we were really not going to get the people who did it.
I'm one of those who said " why are we not bombing Saudi Arabia " after 9-11, and then " why are we not bombing Pakistan " when it became clear that they were sheltering the Taliban.

This is meant to be a serious question:
There is proof that the Sauds are funding Sunni "insurgents", so why the hell are we protecting them?

They are the Wahabist, the assholes who leveled the Trade Center, don't gimmie this crap about how it was individuals. Saudi Arabia is exporting extremism, and therefor is guilty.

I'm serious, what the hell is going on here?
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7206|United States of America
Economic benefits? I wouldn't know much about Saudi Arabia at this time...
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6979|Global Command
I think I blew it on the thread title, that really is a good article.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,074|7222|PNW

ATG wrote:

for an as yet undefined yet no doubt evil end.
Powah. UNNLIMITED POWAAAH!

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-24 21:22:29)

BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6936|Latvia
Maybe Bush is spartan and has a old rage against persians
InfectiousShadow
BF2S Resident Bass Player
+45|6882|Washington State, USA

BALTINS wrote:

Maybe Bush is spartan and has a old rage against persians
This is BUSH!!!
Ssandstorm
Member
+73|7185|Perth, Western Australia

InfectiousShadow wrote:

BALTINS wrote:

Maybe Bush is spartan and has a old rage against persians
This is BUSH!!!
Tonight we dine in SAUDI ARABIA!!!!!!!!!
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6823|Kyiv, Ukraine
Agree with ATG on this one.  The article he posted is just the tip of the iceberg actually.  The fact is that our strategy is to keep the Middle East destabilized nowadays, just as keeping South and Central America destabilized was our foreign policy goal in the 80's under Reagan.  If the Middle East were ever to collectively pull their heads out of their asses, they would be a major powerhouse in the energy department, much like China is to manufacturing.  But, by keeping the the situation in a constant state of turmoil then the USA benefits.  Right now though they're just the pack of ragheads that gives us sweetheart deals on our oil, and woe unto the country there that challenges this paradigm.

The Afghani mujahadeen (the father of Al Qaeda) was bought and paid for by our CIA in the 80's.  A few of its leaders, and possibly Osama (looking for his visa now, saw it before), were brought to the US briefly for orientations and strategy meetings in the 80's.  This is not conspiracy, this was policy.  Our Israeli allies used their vast intelligence network in Afghanistan to distribute cash, training, and US-bought weapons to the Afghani rebels to fight the Soviets.  A side-effect of this is the a brand of militant Islamism that grew up separately than the Palestinian-flavored one.  In an unrelated operation, official weapon sales of "dual-use" technologies were made to a younger Saddam Hussein to help with his war against Iran and to stabilize his own country.  This policy of support went through 3 Presidencies, starting with Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton.  There's no reason to suspect that Bush Jr. is any different in quiet support or half-assed deterence.

Today's results are what is known as "blowback."

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO410B.html (Long version with sources)
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/madein.htm (Short version, light sources)

Heres the whitewash denial for those that believe official stories:
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2 … 18760.html
It confirms that in most cases US government officials never had contact with Arab muslims in Afghanistan, they used Israeli and Pakistani middle-men (simply stated as "shades of gray").  US agents did have extensive contact with Pashtun mujahadeen.  6 of one, half-dozen of the other...whatever.  So it is "technically" correct.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-04-24 23:28:37)

elstonieo
Oil 4 Euros not $$$
+20|6788|EsSeX

ATG wrote:

I think I blew it on the thread title, that really is a good article.
yeap cant you edit it.  I love dispatches (whats/is the american version if there is one)
crimson_grunt
Shitty Disposition (apparently)
+214|7104|Teesside, UK

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

The Afghani mujahadeen (the father of Al Qaeda) was bought and paid for by our CIA in the 80's.  A few of its leaders, and possibly Osama (looking for his visa now, saw it before), were brought to the US briefly for orientations and strategy meetings in the 80's.  This is not conspiracy, this was policy.  Our Israeli allies used their vast intelligence network in Afghanistan to distribute cash, training, and US-bought weapons to the Afghani rebels to fight the Soviets.  A side-effect of this is the a brand of militant Islamism that grew up separately than the Palestinian-flavored one.  In an unrelated operation, official weapon sales of "dual-use" technologies were made to a younger Saddam Hussein to help with his war against Iran and to stabilize his own country.  This policy of support went through 3 Presidencies, starting with Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton.  There's no reason to suspect that Bush Jr. is any different in quiet support or half-assed deterence.
Yeah, a British politician let slip something that interested me and that's the name Al-Qaida was the name of the western database of freedom fighters in Afghanistan.


"Osama bin Laden is no more a true representative of Islam than General Mladic, who commanded the Serbian forces, could be held up as an example of Christianity. After all, it is written in the Qur'an that we were made into different peoples not that we might despise each other, but that we might understand each other.

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondo … 55,00.html
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7125|Canberra, AUS

Miller wrote:

Economic benefits? I wouldn't know much about Saudi Arabia at this time...
Economic benefits? You do know that Saudi Arabians and their companies have 500 billion (or is it 5 trillion?) dollars invested in the US? I don't know what would happen if that was suddenly pulled, but I do know that the effects would be truly catastrophic.

EDIT: About $420 billion, source. I stand by my comment.

Last edited by Spark (2007-04-25 01:27:35)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7260|Nårvei

The US and the Saudi`s is a very interesting topic and you don`t have to be conspiracy addict to see something is rotten in that relationship !

The Saudi`s have invested to much money in the US to be treated in any other way than as a very good friend !

Very good post`s by ATG and GorillaTicTacs

The sad part is the involment by the US in so many organisations that in the last years have turned rogue on them and have cost them greatly in both money and the death of it`s soldiers !

I can comprehend the fact that the US government is turning paranoid on these issues - who to trust and why did our investment backfire !
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6937|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
The US was in bed with Islamic extremist in the 80s because they were fighting against the USSR. It was featured in plenty of movies of the time frame, Rambo 2, The Living Day lights, etc. During that time we gave weapons to anyone who said they hated Communism, just like the Warsaw Pact countries gave weapons to anyone who said they hated Capitalism.
I hate any extremes of any religions, but to crack down on them would make us no better then those assholes.
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|7018|Oxford

ATG wrote:

WTF, follow me on this one:

Today as we witness the carnage in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Somalia, the troubles in Lebanon, Israel and Palestine, everyone’s attention is focused on the gathering of the American Armada in the Persian Gulf and the possibility of US military attack on Iran. President Bush and his staff go out of their way to emphasize that they are doing their best to “reassure” their “allies” in the Persian Gulf (mainly Saudi Arabia) that the United States is there to protect them against the evil Persians. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda’s ideology is spreading unchecked throughout the Muslim world. The actions of the Bush administration are helping to spread this ideology. United States is actually protecting the source of this malaise and helping it to spread.

Until the rise of House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism was a very small sect and was rejected by many scholars in Sunni world. The religion of the House of Saud is Wahabism. When in 1924-1925, Ibn Saud with the help of the British defeated Hashemite (another tribe in Arabia) and captured Mecca, Wahhabism became the official religion of Arabia, or what is now called Saudi Arabia (named after Ibn Saud).

According to Said K. Aburish, when Ibn Saud captured Ryadth, his Wahhabi followers burned 1200 people to death. By 1932 over 400000 people were killed or injured, over 40000 were publicly executed and over 350000 people had one of their limbs amputated. During this time close to 1 million people fled Saudi Arabia. All this in a country with a population at the time of 4 million people.[ 1] Such barbarity on such a scale had never been seen in Arabia before.

This was the birth pangs of Wahhabism as the state religion. The masterminds of the 9/11, the suicide bombers of in Spain, or England or Indonesia are all Wahhabis. The gruesome beheading of hostages, mass killing of civilians by bombs and spreading of terror is nothing new to these people. What is new is the financial and material support that they are receiving.

Schizophrenic Arabia

The House of Saud’s relationship with Wahhabis is symbiotic. The rulers rely on the religious establishment for legitimacy and support, while the religious establishment relies on the government for maintaining and spreading its ideology.



“The Associated Press reports that "key Iraqi officials" say private Saudi citizens are providing millions of dollars in funding to Sunni insurgents in Iraq. Much of the money is used to buy weapons.
    The Iraqi officials interviewed for the article say most of the money comes from "private Islamic donations inside Saudi Arabia, known as zakat." The zakat is one of the five pillars of Islam, and all Muslims are obliged to give it, primarily for the "poor and needy." Some Saudis know where the money goes, the officials say, but others give the money to Islamic clerics and don't know where it goes.
    The two Iraqi officials said that while some of the funding goes to Iraqi Sunni leaders, who then disburse it, other channels are being used to send money directly to insurgents. Among them are Iraqi drivers working on road links between Iraq and neighboring countries.
    Several drivers interviewed by the AP in several Middle East capitals said Saudis have been using religious events, like the annual hajj pilgrimage to Mecca and a smaller midyear pilgrimage, to send money into Iraq on buses that carry returning pilgrims.”[ 11]

Saudi Arabia’s involvement in the arming of the Somalia’s Islamic court was recorded by UN, yet no one said a word.

    “The Bush administration has acknowledged that Saudi Arabia was financing the Al Qaida-aligned regime in Somalia. Officials said Saudi Arabia has become a leading financier of the Islamic takeover of Somalia. The so-called Islamic Courts Union, headed by an Al Qaida commander wanted by the United States, has garnered most of its foreign support from Saudi Arabia and Yemen. "I don't want to say the Saudi government is supporting any particular [Islamic] court," Assistant Secretary of State Jendayi Frazer said. "But I do know that there is money coming in from Saudi Arabia.".”[ 12]

Their involvements with Taliban, their funding of Maddrassas in Pakistan and other places are also well known. Yet we see that United States is gathering an armada to threaten Iran and “protect” Saudi Arabia.
Forget conspiracy theories, the article makes the best case I have ever read that the United States government is actively working with radical Islamic extremists, for a as yet undefined yet no doubt evil end.

full article:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0702/S00089.htm
As much as I despise current US foreign policy I don't believe the US administration deliberately and knowingly perpetuates the troubles in the ME. Hindsight is a wondrous thing but doesn't always point to the answer.

I can only think that a combination of shambolic and hugely damaging strategies being applied all over the region, and for decades, has led us to where we are today. Too many agencies and too many covert operations with no strong leadership or common cause other than self gain has led to the anarchy we have today and the miriad of heavily armed fanatical groups propagating the violence.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7031|SE London

Interesting OP. The Saudis certainly have an unpleasant regime and close ties with the west, as well as a funny way of not getting caught up in the backlash for Islamic extremist terrorism, despite playing a huge role in it.

Another thing I think is unwise is the sale of high tech military equipment to Saudi Arabia. Their army and airforce is composed of the very best European and American technology (which we've sold them) and could prove a serious challenge to overcome. I don't think we should be selling them so much fancy stuff.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|7011
I don't know that I'd say they're working with Islamic extremists.  They're working with political leaders, who'll act like extremists if it serves them.  There's a difference.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire
As Bubbalo has said I don't know if it's all out collusion with the extremist groups but once again the USA's dubious relationship with Saudi Arabia is in question. If the US wanted to really turn the tide in the MIddle East, on an ideological as well as military level, it would have to review the relationship it has with one of the most hard line of the Islamic countries - Saudi Arabia. Add to this the fact they still unconditionally support Israel and you have no position of moral higher ground in the eyes of Middle Eastern Muslims.

I also think the USA needs the terrorists to be out there in the world in the same way as they needed Communists. The USA has always needed a significant 'enemy' to counter their own ideology and allow them the scope to implement certain foreign policies.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7115|NT, like Mick Dundee

Well, Iraq does seem to be the biggest guerilla warfare training centre on Earth at the moment....
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6823|Kyiv, Ukraine

Flecco wrote:

Well, Iraq does seem to be the biggest guerilla warfare training centre on Earth at the moment....
The School of Americas must be pretty pissed off that their title has been taken away then...but you know what Bush said, "Train them over there so we don't have to train them over here."

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-04-25 06:18:32)

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard