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Hooray for Scotland. About time they got their act together. If they had an ounce of national pride their beautiful country would be every bit as affluent as the Republic by now.

RicardoBlanco wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Hooray for Scotland. About time they got their act together. If they had an ounce of national pride their beautiful country would be every bit as affluent as the Republic by now.

They'll end up losing out financially though. I think the subsidies we give them are £30billion a year and the revenue from oil £12billion. The point is that they want both.

Well having both sounds absurd - are you sure you have that right?

KylieTastic wrote:

Its UK oil not Scotish or English.

Until the UK breaks up. Then it will lie in Scottish territorial waters and as such will be Scottish.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-26 03:11:39)

KylieTastic wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

KylieTastic wrote:

Its UK oil not Scottish or English.

Until the UK breaks up. Then it will lie in Scottish territorial waters and as such will be Scottish.

If that ever happened then fine.... but till then its ridiculous for them to want a "whats ours is ours and whats yours is ours attitude". If they ever go independent the immediate affect would be financially better for the English and worse for the Scots (even with the oil).... not that with a good government and some hard work they couldn't make Scotland a great and prosperous country.

The SNP look like obtaining a majority in the Scottish parliament this time around. Their main mainfesto promise is a vote on independence which, let's face it, any proud Scotsman would vote in favour of. So the breakup of the UK could come sooner than you think. The problem for the SNP is that they probably won't have enough seats to have an outright majority.

Go on Scotland. Make the break and take control of your natural resources. Losing the Barnett payoff may hurt in the short term but it will be necessary in the establishment of their own independent economy when they get their independence.

CameronPoe wrote:

The SNP look like obtaining a majority in the Scottish parliament this time around. Their main manifesto promise is a vote on independence which, let's face it, any proud Scotsman would vote in favour of. So the breakup of the UK could come sooner than you think. The problem for the SNP is that they probably won't have enough seats to have an outright majority.

My experience is that allot of Sottish people are equally as proud of their Britishness as their scotishness. Its Like Northern Ireland, its divided on religious lines. I thought I had seen some crazy sectarian shit at home, but it pales into insignificance against a day and nights drinking around Glasgow.

Most of the oil and gas is gone from the North Sea, I think the English politicians would be happy to give Scotland back to the Scottish as she will become a resource drain eventually. An independent Scotland would hopefully on a tide of nationalism flourish as the Republic of Ireland did.

Toxicseagull wrote:

equally Cameron, not everyone has your views, ive talked to many scots who dont want independance, they would prefer to stay in the UK. during my time living there i understood a lot are proud of what we have achieved together and want it to continue.
they do not live in the past.

Scotland is very like Northern Ireland. There are people who see themselves as Celts, feel no real affinity with the empire (some still even speak Gaeilge) and feel closer to the Irish and Welsh (although the Welsh are Brethonic Celts and have a completely different Celtic language to ours) and likewise there are those that feel closer to the empire than to any Celtic origin or brotherhood with the Irish and Welsh ...they usually support Rangers or Hearts!

Toxicseagull wrote:

they can have it as long as they completely cut with england withdraw their MP's and no longer rely financially on us, if they want independence, give it to them
as far as im aware (i may be wrong about this) the oil and gas in the UK's waters has little left? when compared to norway and other north sea country's. 

scotlands affluence depends, if they separate from the uk, on whether they can reverse the population decline, how much they can benefit from the EU and how quickly they join it (such as Ireland, a lot of money is made via the EU and grants) and if they can manage the high standards of living they enjoy without the subsidisation from westminister, if this drops so may population.
on a different note im glad Brown, as a scot himself, is not sitting on the sidelines on this big white elephant.

equally Cameron, not everyone has your views, ive talked to many scots who dont want independance, they would prefer to stay in the UK. during my time living there i understood a lot are proud of what we have achieved together and want it to continue.
they do not live in the past, there is however a breed of mindless nationalism that has been rife which no doubt will control the hearts of a lot of people.

Small point: Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU not a 'taker'. Most money in Ireland is made through multinational corporations, the hi-tech sector and the building trade.

I was born in Glasgow Toxic. The place is a cesspit. All money in the UK seems to be funnelled into goddamn London. Here in the Republic we control our own destiny. If we hadn't freed ourselves from the UK Dublin would just be another cesspit like Glasgow. Belfast is a perfect example of that. We have developed a socially responsible dynamic and competitive economy BECAUSE we control our own destiny. We reversed the emigration trend of the 80s. We have successfully managed to preserve and augment our own language and distinct cultural identity at the same time. Do you not think Scotland is capable of the same?

'Mindless nationalism'? Do you not have a sense of pride in your own distinct nation - the english language, Stone Henge, the magna carta, etc? The Scottish are a distinct group of people that the English have tried to assimilate to the point that their culture has been almost completely destroyed (much as was tried by the English in Ireland) - but the fact remains that the culture of the Celtic north has not died and should be preserved. Scottish people are held to ransom by these 'subsidies'. If they were to go without then they would learn fast what is necessary to do to play catch-up with the rest and develope a competitive economy - these subsidies are allowing them to lazily shirk the responsibility: 'London will pay for it'. It is not in the Scottish interest for the English to pay their way.

Break the links Scotland. You'll never look back.

CameronPoe wrote:

Toxicseagull wrote:

they can have it as long as they completely cut with england withdraw their MP's and no longer rely financially on us, if they want independence, give it to them
as far as im aware (i may be wrong about this) the oil and gas in the UK's waters has little left? when compared to norway and other north sea country's. 

scotlands affluence depends, if they separate from the uk, on whether they can reverse the population decline, how much they can benefit from the EU and how quickly they join it (such as Ireland, a lot of money is made via the EU and grants) and if they can manage the high standards of living they enjoy without the subsidisation from westminister, if this drops so may population.
on a different note im glad Brown, as a scot himself, is not sitting on the sidelines on this big white elephant.

equally Cameron, not everyone has your views, ive talked to many scots who dont want independance, they would prefer to stay in the UK. during my time living there i understood a lot are proud of what we have achieved together and want it to continue.
they do not live in the past, there is however a breed of mindless nationalism that has been rife which no doubt will control the hearts of a lot of people.

Small point: Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU not a 'taker'. Most money in Ireland is made through multinational corporations, the hi-tech sector and the building trade.

I was born in Glasgow Toxic. The place is a cesspit. All money in the UK seems to be funnelled into goddamn London. Here in the Republic we control our own destiny. If we hadn't freed ourselves from the UK Dublin would just be another cesspit like Glasgow. Belfast is a perfect example of that. We have developed a socially responsible dynamic and competitive economy BECAUSE we control our own destiny. We reversed the emigration trend of the 80s. We have successfully managed to preserve and augment our own language and distinct cultural identity at the same time. Do you not think Scotland is capable of the same?

'Mindless nationalism'? Do you not have a sense of pride in your own distinct nation - the english language, Stone Henge, the magna carta, etc? The Scottish are a distinct group of people that the English have tried to assimilate to the point that their culture has been almost completely destroyed (much as was tried by the English in Ireland) - but the fact remains that the culture of the Celtic north has not died and should be preserved. Scottish people are held to ransom by these 'subsidies'. If they were to go without then they would learn fast what is necessary to do to play catch-up with the rest and develope a competitive economy - these subsidies are allowing them to lazily shirk the responsibility: 'London will pay for it'. It is not in the Scottish interest for the English to pay their way.

Break the links Scotland. You'll never look back.

Yes ...what he said!

Poe i know you are this guy that hates England and the UK over things that were done by people not even alive today... but i think you will find most scots dont want independence, no scot that ive ever met and got into political discussions with wants independence.

As to nationalism, its people like you who hold back the human race and prevent any sort of unity ever being reached. Im proud of being from the U.K. and if we managed to unite Europe i would be proud to come from Europe.

Last edited by Vilham (2007-04-26 04:15:23)

Vilham wrote:

Poe i know you are this guy that hates England and the UK over things that were done by people not even alive today... but i think you will find most scots dont want independence, no scot that ive ever met and got into political discussions with wants independence.

As to nationalism, its people like you who hold back the human race and prevent any sort of unity ever being reached. Im proud of being from the U.K. and if we managed to unite Europe i would be proud to come from Europe.

Typical moronic dribble: I don't hate England. Guess what? I was born in Glasgow, as was my mother. I have more than 20 first cousins living in Glasgow. What do they want? Independence. I'm not doubting that some want to preserve the union. I'm arguing that it is not in their interest.

Europe has been united - ever hear of the EU? And guess what? The majority of Brits won't even give up their currency for the sake of unity over the nationalistic attitude you criticise me of.... lol

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-26 04:23:30)

you both assume the english culture is simply the south east version, you are ignorant of the wealth and difference of culture in england.
Braddock, the english also have celtic background, the north of england is extremely influenced and shares the same roots. as does the south west. it is modern nationalism that blocks this out, it would be rather damaging to have the "celtic vs nasty anglo saxon" feeling gone. similar to the fact that the idea of a scot's "traditional" kilt was reintroduced and made fashionable by victorians. equally that in many famous scots battles, there were more scots on the english side than english.

cameron you have to stop with this painting the english as some nasty Borg like figure. if the scot's had been successful you dont think they would have subjugated the english? destroying our culture? we fought hundreds of years ago for our nationality and our lives, the scots lost. (with help from other scots), since the time they stopped rebelling we have done nothing but encourage their culture. the last attempt to suppress them was in the 1700's ffs.

Cameron, yes "now" it is, but the last few decades? thus when i said if scotland got independence its wealth would rely both on reversing the immigration and how much it can draw from the EU.
you base your opinions on glasgow? and then blame it on england? jesus some english city's are worse than that place. just because a city is a dump doesnt mean its englands fault. i agree london sucks a lot of money (i would know im from the north) but it also produces a lot.

in the case of scotland they rely on their own taxes (like the north) for funding. and then the barnett and other schemes. if scotland withdrew it would only be able to rely on its own money. making it a worse situation especially as other services wont be subsidised by england, hopefully the EU could help but i doubt the scot's would be happy with increased taxes etc.

from the OP's article
"A spokesman for the party said that it was "unconcerned" about the prospect of losing the Barnett Formula"

hehehe unconcerned about 30 billion a year? its a harsh fact but if they take independance they will loose 18 billion a year from that alone. (OP was right, oil = 12 billion a year).

it really is cutting of their nose to spit their face. the SNP are pulling figures out of its arse.

i do think it would be a shame if they split, we have acheived so much Together! everyone is aware that scotland has played a vital and important role in the UK's achievements throughout history, it would be a shame to split. however if they vote for it, then sure split, but dont try and take all the cake and eat it.


~edit~ btw, what does being born in scotland have to do with not hating the english?

Last edited by Toxicseagull (2007-04-26 04:39:46)