BF2S Forums Russia to pull out of arms treaty.

Kmarion wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

We didn't tolerate them putting missles in Cuba. However the situation was a little different considering the missiles in Cuba were an offensive move (Given the types of missiles).

Any defensive move is inherently offensive as well.  By limiting your opponents ability to hit at you, you increase your ability to hit at him.

To some degree yes. But I see "10 unarmed missile interceptors in Poland and a linked radar in the Czech Republic" and R-12's/R-14's as incredibly different motives.

In fact the US was told ahead of time: On 4 September, Robert Kennedy met with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin. During the meeting Kennedy stated the U.S.'s concerns about weapons that were in Cuba. The Ambassador assured Kennedy that they were strictly defensive and that the military build-up was of absolutely no significance..
That same day, a personal communiqué was received from Khrushchev to President Kennedy stating that there would be no offensive weapons placed in Cuba

To which we (the US) did not have a problem with.

The motives are very clear: To protect the poles and Czechs from Iranian missles. That sounds pretty fair, don't you agree?

How are ten interceptors a threat/deterrent to a country with thousands of missiles, bombers and subs?  They're not.  They are, however, a deterrent against Iranian missiles (which may or may not exist, but thats not what we're arguing about)

IMO, Russia is simply using this as an excuse to pull out of the treaty.

I love how everyone on these forums is an "EXPERT' on such complex matters. BTW, europe wants this defense in place, so all you ignorants in europe blaming the U.S. for Russia backing out of their SIGNED TREATY go sit on a bat.

buttersIRL wrote:

the first thing Bush did when coming to office was to pull out of the Anti-ballistic missile treaty with Russia !

True, we did leave the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.

There are many things that Putin is doing that I'm worried about, but I can't say this is one of them.

Kmarion wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

To some degree yes. But I see "10 unarmed missile interceptors in Poland and a linked radar in the Czech Republic" and R-12's/R-14's as incredibly different motives.

In fact the US was told ahead of time: On 4 September, Robert Kennedy met with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin. During the meeting Kennedy stated the U.S.'s concerns about weapons that were in Cuba. The Ambassador assured Kennedy that they were strictly defensive and that the military build-up was of absolutely no significance..
That same day, a personal communiqué was received from Khrushchev to President Kennedy stating that there would be no offensive weapons placed in Cuba

To which we (the US) did not have a problem with.

Could you please quote a source?  Not questioning it's accuracy (irrelevant to my argument) just curious, I don't know anywhere near as much about the Cuban missile crisis as I probably should.

More to the point:  the US's concern over Cuba is irrelevant, I'm not the one talking about it.  This move shows that either the US still has no understanding of the Russians or is purposely antagonising them.  Russia has spent most of it's life being invade from the west.  That's why the USSR and all the eastern Europe puppet governments were formed, as a buffer.  Russia's primary concern is always territorial defence, particularly against armies from the west.  Any military build-up of any kind will be viewed as suspicious.

The soviets never denied it.

http://i11.tinypic.com/3you52d.jpg

I just don't buy into your any action is a threat ideology. Russia is just looking for an excuse to further distance itself. Do we throw common sense out over radar systems and "10 unarmed missile interceptors in Poland". How can you possibly think this is a threat the Russia? Do you think they are incapable of evading that if they had intent to attack Poland? It is obviously designed to deter smaller attacks from smaller nations. At some point we have to assert our brains to decipher intent.

I could understand where you were coming from if the case wasn't that of the US, half the world away, placing military bases next to russia. If poland went and built some radar stations I don't think russia would whine, but when the powerful nation halfway across the globe that exhibits interventionist tendencies decides to put men with guns near you the reaction is going to be different.

jonsimon wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Could you please quote a source?  Not questioning it's accuracy (irrelevant to my argument) just curious, I don't know anywhere near as much about the Cuban missile crisis as I probably should.

More to the point:  the US's concern over Cuba is irrelevant, I'm not the one talking about it.  This move shows that either the US still has no understanding of the Russians or is purposely antagonising them.  Russia has spent most of it's life being invade from the west.  That's why the USSR and all the eastern Europe puppet governments were formed, as a buffer.  Russia's primary concern is always territorial defence, particularly against armies from the west.  Any military build-up of any kind will be viewed as suspicious.

The soviets never denied it.

http://i11.tinypic.com/3you52d.jpg

I just don't buy into your any action is a threat ideology. Russia is just looking for an excuse to further distance itself. Do we throw common sense out over radar systems and "10 unarmed missile interceptors in Poland". How can you possibly think this is a threat the Russia? Do you think they are incapable of evading that if they had intent to attack Poland? It is obviously designed to deter smaller attacks from smaller nations. At some point we have to assert our brains to decipher intent.

I could understand where you were coming from if the case wasn't that of the US, half the world away, placing military bases next to russia. If poland went and built some radar stations I don't think russia would whine, but when the powerful nation halfway across the globe that exhibits interventionist tendencies decides to put men with guns near you the reaction is going to be different.

A military base? Think again (Poland is on it's way to becoming an ally). Of course we will try to protect them. Jonsimon I am pretty sure you know whats going on in Russia right now. The US has overstepped on a few occasion lately but this is not one. These missile defense emplacements are in no way at all a threat to Russia.... not at all. I invite you to do a little research on the issue and to better understand the capability the Russians have with their first strike weapons and MIRV. If you think 10 unarmed missile defense batteries are capable of deterring the Russians if they chose to strike is a possibility you are misinformed. Nothing at all changes for them. The Russians have the most advanced missile defense evading technology BY FAR. MAD remains in effect and will until the end of our lives at the very least.

The US has absoluty nothing that could stop a SS-27 strike if the Russians so desired.