cryptofcolumbus
Member
+18|6663|Eugene, OR
I've been doing a lot of thinking about Iraq lately.  I've always been against being there.  I thought it was a bad decision from the start.  However, now I feel like we can't leave.  I feel that if we do leave we will have laid the ground works of a terrible genocide.  You could call it a civil war, but with such a large shia majority and having already established themselves as controlling the government, it wouldn't be hard to crush the Sunnis.  Should we allow this to happen?  Isn't it our responsibility to protect those people.  After all, we created the circumstance that will lead to their deaths if we don't do something to stop it.  As much as it pains me to say it, I think we need to stay there to protect those people. 
     As for Bush,  Fuck Bush.  He should be out of office right now.  We need someone brand new.  Someone who is willing to listen,  someone who is willing to compromise, and someone who is willing to ask for help.  I cannot imagine how someone could manage to blunder a war more extensively.  Too few troops, didn't consider post Saddam violence, disbanded the Iraqi army, "mission accomplished",  failure to see the need for change until it was too late, complete dismissal of a fucking BIPARTISAN Iraq study group report, just to name a few.  We need a new President.   
     In my ideal world, which is quite a nice place.  The United States would own up to its mistakes and go to the U.N. or NATO and ask for help.  An international peace keeping mission could serve to both change strategies, quell some of the hatred from America, and hopefully protect Iraq's most vulnerable people.  I know Bush won't do it, and I doubt any of the other major candidates will either.
Although, I am a liberal as you can probably tell, I don't support the democrats strategy of setting date certain one year from now for withdrawal.  I know, I fucking know, if they do succeed in getting us to retreat they will toot their horns all the way to the election and turn a blind eye to the mass carnage and violence that will go on in Iraq in our absence.  I don't think that's right.  We shouldn't let it happen.
     So  questions still remain, and I certainly don't have the answer.  To what end?  Are we going to project them forever?  And most importantly,  are the lives of  many more American troops worth protect those innocent people?  That's a good questions, and I would love to hear your thoughts.

edit:  added indentations to make it a little easier reading and fixed spelling errors

Last edited by cryptofcolumbus (2007-04-29 04:32:35)

some_random_panda
Flamesuit essential
+454|6839

First America needs to set up a COMPETENT government in Iraq, then pull out and force the government to do something about the security.  Right now the government's sitting on it's behind and sheltering from mortars.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
We own the place now, it is our responsibility.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|7009
But you can't stabilise.  The reason that Europe is so stable now is due to centuries of bloody warfare carving out national boundaries.  Forcing people to co-operate doesn't work.

Further, to say that the Shia could wipe out the Sunnis shows you have little or no understanding of the situation.  Control of the government means nothing.  If the Shia wipe out the Sunnis, it will be at great cost to them, as both are heavily armed.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7095
As a liberal I care about humanity. And when I say humanity I'm clearly only talking about American troops. Bring them home, fuck everyone else.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6671|Escea

Iraq is following a path similar to Ireland, obviously there's a lot more fighting. But Ireland is starting to pull away from its old milk bottle bomb days, and Iraq will do the same, it just takes time, these things cannot be expected overnight.
cryptofcolumbus
Member
+18|6663|Eugene, OR

Bubbalo wrote:

Further, to say that the Shia could wipe out the Sunnis shows you have little or no understanding of the situation.  Control of the government means nothing.  If the Shia wipe out the Sunnis, it will be at great cost to them, as both are heavily armed.
I don't think 35% can defend itself against 65%.  Controlling the government means they will control the oil wealth.
san4
The Mas
+311|7136|NYC, a place to live

cryptofcolumbus wrote:

However, now I feel like we can't leave. I feel that if we do leave we will have laid the ground works of a terrible genocide.
+1 for serious thinking about Iraq. The Republicans talk about "winning" (which makes no sense) and the Democrats brainlessly talk about withdrawal. Withdrawal is a possible strategy, but the Democrats don't talk much about its consequences. It's a much harder position to take when you acknowledge that mass murder will happen after the U.S. leaves.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

san4 wrote:

cryptofcolumbus wrote:

However, now I feel like we can't leave. I feel that if we do leave we will have laid the ground works of a terrible genocide.
+1 for serious thinking about Iraq. The Republicans talk about "winning" (which makes no sense) and the Democrats brainlessly talk about withdrawal. Withdrawal is a possible strategy, but the Democrats don't talk much about its consequences. It's a much harder position to take when you acknowledge that mass murder will happen after the U.S. leaves.
For calling a democrat spade a spade, +1


Those fools people don't care about the carnage and genocide that will follow, how can a caring liberal not?
Schwarzelungen
drunklenglungen
+133|6744|Bloomington Indiana
im actually happy to have come across this thread. mostly all  see here is "nuke it" or "leave it"
as stated, its not that simple....
too many people try to take a stand and follow "their" party...its tooooo complicated now.
it takes thinking and researching. glad to see people doing it.
Villain{NY}
Banned
+44|6792|New York
Afghanistan was the right fight, Bin Laden and the Taliban were there but we blew our chance to kill or capture him in Tora Bora.

Iraq was a huge mistake.  Saddam may have been ruthless but he kept the Iraqi people in order.  Now were stuck in quick sand, slowly sinking.
-101-InvaderZim
Member
+42|7292|Waikato, Aotearoa
I keep saying that the 2nd Iraqi War was a mistake and unlawful, and the Mr Bush is a War Crim.
If you Americans are so against the war, then why you all voted for him is beyond me. Impeach the bastard and remove him from office.
Removing Saddam from power and the subsequent Invasion was not political, but a personal vandetta by 1 man
hoping to seek Daddy's Approval. Lets face it people, George Bush Snr was ALWAYS out to get Saddam. Pissed off that he couldnt do it, GB Snr then got Jnr to do it instead (keeping it in the family so to speak).
Now you are stuck with another Vietnam with no idea how to extricate yourselves from it. I have sympathy for all those families who have lost Sons and Daughters needlessly because of 1 mans stupidity.
HeavyMetalDave
Metal Godz
+107|7106|California
It's a catch-22..

Damned if u do... damned if u dont...

most humans like to fight and argue... then let them...

if u dont like to fight...

STFU... and stay the hell out of their way.

I dont fight... so i mind my own business...

but I also RESPECT the ones that like to fight.... coz its natural.

It comes down to this... do u like freedom? or do u you oppression?

Coz u have to FIGHT for FREEDOM... dont you get it?

or someone eventually comes along and tries to take it from u....

go USA.
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7204|United States of America

HeavyMetalDave wrote:

It's a catch-22..

Damned if u do... damned if u dont...

most humans like to fight and argue... then let them...

if u dont like to fight...

STFU... and stay the hell out of their way.

I dont fight... so i mind my own business...

but I also RESPECT the ones that like to fight.... coz its natural.

It comes down to this... do u like freedom? or do u you oppression?

Coz u have to FIGHT for FREEDOM... dont you get it?

or someone eventually comes along and tries to take it from u....

go USA.
I never knew you felt this way +1
13rin
Member
+977|6927

-101-InvaderZim wrote:

I keep saying that the 2nd Iraqi War was a mistake and unlawful, and the Mr Bush is a War Crim.
If you Americans are so against the war, then why you all voted for him is beyond me. Impeach the bastard and remove him from office.
Removing Saddam from power and the subsequent Invasion was not political, but a personal vandetta by 1 man
hoping to seek Daddy's Approval. Lets face it people, George Bush Snr was ALWAYS out to get Saddam. Pissed off that he couldnt do it, GB Snr then got Jnr to do it instead (keeping it in the family so to speak).
Now you are stuck with another Vietnam with no idea how to extricate yourselves from it. I have sympathy for all those families who have lost Sons and Daughters needlessly because of 1 mans stupidity.
If Bush is a war criminal what was Saddam then? and where were your cries to remove him?  Didn't his OWN PEOPLE execute him?

The US help put Saddam in power -why not help remove him?

Actually Sr. held the troops back on the Iraq border after we beat the piss out of them in GWI.  If he wanted to he could have toppled Saddam.

Where was your sympathy for the Kurds Saddam gassed, or the sympathy for the daughters raped by Saddam's fucktard sons?  Where is your rage toward the killers of freedom, peace and democracy?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Smithereener
Member
+138|6764|California

-101-InvaderZim wrote:

I keep saying that the 2nd Iraqi War was a mistake and unlawful, and the Mr Bush is a War Crim.
If you Americans are so against the war, then why you all voted for him is beyond me. Impeach the bastard and remove him from office.
Removing Saddam from power and the subsequent Invasion was not political, but a personal vandetta by 1 man
hoping to seek Daddy's Approval. Lets face it people, George Bush Snr was ALWAYS out to get Saddam. Pissed off that he couldnt do it, GB Snr then got Jnr to do it instead (keeping it in the family so to speak).
Now you are stuck with another Vietnam with no idea how to extricate yourselves from it. I have sympathy for all those families who have lost Sons and Daughters needlessly because of 1 mans stupidity.
Impeaching doesn't mean we put him out of office. It just means we put him on trial. Putting him on trial doesn't translate into him leaving office. We've impeached Clinton, but he stayed because he didn't have enough votes against him.

"All vote?" Excuse me, but not everyone voted for Mr. Bush. Even if the majority of voting Americans did, they didn't directly vote for him. It's this thing called the "Electoral College." It's stupid to blame the American people for ALL voting someone into office when it clearly isn't the case.

Not all Americans are against the war either. The majority of Republicans for example.

I'm against the war in Iraq myself and I have the best wishes for the soldiers and their families (one of my friend's brother joined the Army; I was pretty close to both of them), but I'm not going to preach "withdrawal;" the repercussions of pulling out are probably far more catastrophic than staying in. I'd say we just need to give them "democracy" a little bit at a time. It's difficult to adjust to the light after being in the dark for so long - same can be said about trying to become democratic after being under a dictator for so long.

Stop with all the generalizations please.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

This thread contains my view. I'm not feeling very repetitive right now.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
-101-InvaderZim
Member
+42|7292|Waikato, Aotearoa

DBBrinson1 wrote:

-101-InvaderZim wrote:

I keep saying that the 2nd Iraqi War was a mistake and unlawful, and the Mr Bush is a War Crim.
If you Americans are so against the war, then why you all voted for him is beyond me. Impeach the bastard and remove him from office.
Removing Saddam from power and the subsequent Invasion was not political, but a personal vandetta by 1 man
hoping to seek Daddy's Approval. Lets face it people, George Bush Snr was ALWAYS out to get Saddam. Pissed off that he couldnt do it, GB Snr then got Jnr to do it instead (keeping it in the family so to speak).
Now you are stuck with another Vietnam with no idea how to extricate yourselves from it. I have sympathy for all those families who have lost Sons and Daughters needlessly because of 1 mans stupidity.
If Bush is a war criminal what was Saddam then? and where were your cries to remove him?  Didn't his OWN PEOPLE execute him?

The US help put Saddam in power -why not help remove him?

Actually Sr. held the troops back on the Iraq border after we beat the piss out of them in GWI.  If he wanted to he could have toppled Saddam.

Where was your sympathy for the Kurds Saddam gassed, or the sympathy for the daughters raped by Saddam's fucktard sons?  Where is your rage toward the killers of freedom, peace and democracy?
I DID call to remove Saddam, but thru diplomacy. However 5+ years ago my voice wasnt very loud (I mean
@ the moment its not terribly loud either), but there wasnt a forum where I could voice my opinions effectively.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7076|IRELAND

ATG wrote:

We own the place now, it is our responsibility.
"America is a Nation with a mission - and that mission comes from our most basic beliefs. We have no desire to dominate, no ambitions of empire. Our aim is a democratic peace - a peace founded upon the dignity and rights of every man and woman."
George W. Bush
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7123|Canberra, AUS
I believe much along the same lines of the OP. We got in (we shouldn't have) but there we stay - though I won't say no to a big scale-down. We need to monitor and arbitrate - we can't be acting as the Iraqi Army and Police Force - or we'll never "get the job done"
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6738|Éire
The US has caused an unbelievable shit pile of a mess in Iraq and cannot win ...if it leaves they will be called failures, just like in Vietnam and the country will disintegrate into a situation of total chaos and barbarity (much like it is already) and yet if the US stays it will continue to suffer heavy losses and continue to allow the Iraqi puppet Government to sit on their asses and leave all the shitty work to the US troops.

The Democrats, if successful in their demands will champion themselves as the administration that chose peace over war but their withdrawal will leave the Iraqis up slack alley and make them in many ways as bad as the Bush regime. If they let the troops stay they will be accused of perpetuating America's domineering of the Middle East but the fact is with foreign influence still in the country nothing other than an artificial sense of equilibrium will ever be restored to the country.

It's like this ...you should have never went in in the first place.

ATG wrote:

We own the place now, it is our responsibility.
Sadly what you say is true ATG, the US does own Iraq now.
buttersIRL
Member
+17|7046

JahManRed wrote:

ATG wrote:

We own the place now, it is our responsibility.
"America is a Nation with a mission - and that mission comes from our most basic beliefs. We have no desire to dominate, no ambitions of empire. Our aim is a democratic peace - a peace founded upon the dignity and rights of every man and woman."
George W. Bush
America is the invading/occupying force, they have a responnsibilty to "Duty to Restore and Maintain Public Order: The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country. (HR, art. 43.)
"

it will be interesting to see who will win the next election, I think the democarts are really shooting themselves in the foot saying they will bring back the troops if elected, as I could imagine anyone with a brain will see how much worse that would make the situation in Iraq.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7003

buttersIRL wrote:

it will be interesting to see who will win the next election, I think the democarts are really shooting themselves in the foot saying they will bring back the troops if elected, as I could imagine anyone with a brain will see how much worse that would make the situation in Iraq.
Why should they care about the situation in Iraq? It's not like the US military can do anything about it. It's the Iraqis problem now (always was) - time for them to take charge of their own affairs like proper grown ups. Isn't 'Personal Responsibility' the American way?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-01 04:16:17)

buttersIRL
Member
+17|7046
if  'Personal Responsibility' is American way, then they are the people to blame, if democracy is so high and mighty and great a way of running a country (if not the world) then they voted for the politicans and presidents that turned Iraq from not the worst place to live to the mother of all hellholes on the planet.  I'm pretty sure there wasn't as many dead bodies and car bombs when Saddam was incharge. I'm not praising him, but the ruthless psycho knew how to control the place.

they should realise Democracy isn't suited to every place and set up a military government until they restore peace instead of trying to please the media with all the crap "mission accomplised" and ineffective iraqi provisional government, or better yet find some other ruthless psycho bastard they can help to become the next dictator.

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