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2007-05-01 18:25:58
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
I was in the book store yesterday thumbing through one of the many environmentalist books, towards the end of one I noticed this line;
even if you can't do all you would like toward living green you can at least congradulate yourself on taking small steps to improve the planet.
This, imo is  what environmentalism  and much else on the political left's agenda is all about, self-congratulation.

As my respected esteemed co-chair of the DST HOF, I select you to dissect to make my point:

CameronPoe wrote:

I've said countless times before - Iranians are by and large a progressive people and Iran is a great nation. The people will see that Ahmedinejad is not re-elected but instead replaced with a moderate like Khatami.
Here we have an example of Cameron A) advocating letting things sort them selves out ( hopefully ) and B) self-congratulating himself by praising the Persian culture.
The reality is, Iran is destabilizing what existing peace there is by being in violation of U.N. mandates in regards to its nuclear program. They are actively engaged in terrorism. You know it, liberals know it.


CameronPoe wrote:

Why should they care about the situation in Iraq? It's not like the US military can do anything about it. It's the Iraqis problem now (always was) - time for them to take charge of their own affairs like proper grown ups. Isn't 'Personal Responsibility' the American way?
Here we have an example of Cameron A) In denial of the reality of the duplicity of the international community stoking the fires of war with toothless resolutions, and B) self-congratulating himself by attempting to " talk down " to America by suggesting we are going against our own ideals in Iraq when the reality is, an Islamic militant governed Middle East will be a disaster for the world. You know it, liberals know it. I'm not faulting Cam for his views, I am simply examining them and asking myself " where is the counter-idea that involves human realities and responsibilities" , when the world surely needs it.

Too often, feel good policies apply bandages to problems while infecting the wound.

One major problem with the left, is that there seems to be a large empty silence when it comes to  " what the fuck now. "

We got it, George Bush is a...bad president, but I need to hear something from the democrats and leftists that doesn't involve a announced withdraw, and the slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis, and other Muslims in the carnage that will surely follow.

/discuss


* edit    Also, Ignorance is no impediment to strong opinions, I'm proof of that.

Last edited by ATG (2007-05-01 18:44:41)

2007-05-01 18:43:54
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Embellishing in "I told you so" instead of despairing over the reality of the results? Is that what you are conveying?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-01 18:51:54
Havok
Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist
+302|7123|Florida, United States

Well I have a question for you ATG.  You don't want to hear about a democrat preaching about an announced withdrawal, but is it possible to have an unannounced one?
2007-05-01 19:06:36
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Kmarion wrote:

Embellishing in "I told you so" instead of despairing over the reality of the results? Is that what you are conveying?
Exactly.
Sorry if it wasn't coherent.

*edit.

Embellishing in "I told you so" instead of facing over the reality of the results of failure.

Last edited by ATG (2007-05-01 20:57:24)

2007-05-01 19:09:10
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Havok wrote:

Well I have a question for you ATG.  You don't want to hear about a democrat preaching about an announced withdrawal, but is it possible to have an unannounced one?
Of course, I don't want us there forever, unless it's in the context of a redefined New...World Order, wherein there are others there as well.
2007-05-01 19:14:07
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6784|Oregon
And even more self-congratulatory is the Religious Right.
Everyone is self-congratulatory, to point this at liberals is a political cheapshot.
It's like saying "Conservatives are short-sighted." I could list many, many examples of republican and conservative short-sightedness, but so are liberals.

Both of these are just very, very common personality flaws that can spread to political parties through association and leadership.
2007-05-01 19:20:14
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7029|the dank(super) side of Oregon
The "slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis and other muslims" is the ultimate reality and consequence of our actions in Iraq.  The reason I and many liberals advocate pulling out is because I dont want to see one more American Soldier or Marine die in that godawful country.  Sadly, there is no magic bullet solution,  this surge solution is a fantasy.  If that sounds smug, sorry.

As I see it, there are three outcomes in this war.

1.  Iraq will suffer civil/sectarian war and mild genocide
2.  American and Coalition forces will die trying to referee this war
3.  Iran will grow stronger

If we stay there, we get 1,2 and 3. if we leave we only get 1 and 3.

If preserving the lives of American Soldiers and Marines while recouping our overextended military is a "feel good policy", so-fucking-be it.

The "what the fuck now" is we leave and look like assholes, because that's what we are.
2007-05-01 19:25:08
Havok
Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist
+302|7123|Florida, United States

ATG wrote:

Havok wrote:

Well I have a question for you ATG.  You don't want to hear about a democrat preaching about an announced withdrawal, but is it possible to have an unannounced one?
Of course, I don't want us there forever, unless it's in the context of a redefined New...World Order, wherein there are others there as well.
Can you give me a short description on how you would plan to move thousands of soldiers out of an occupied nation in an organized fashion without it being announced?  I realize that unannounced does not mean unplanned, but I fail to comprehend how it could be successfully completed.

I suspect that you would support a gradual withdrawal that does not draw attention to our troops, but I also suspect that the Iraqi insurgents would realize the lack of soldiers and prepare the same method of recapturing Iraq once the majority of our soldiers were absent.  Would this not result in the same effect of doing an immediate, but announced withdrawal?  Yes, the unannounced plan could have success, but in the end, the absence of our troops is going to create a rift in Iraq whether it's announced or not.
2007-05-01 19:29:31
cryptofcolumbus
Member
+18|6663|Eugene, OR

ATG wrote:

I was in the book store yesterday thumbing through one of the many environmentalist books, towards the end of one I noticed this line;
even if you can't do all you would like toward living green you can at least congradulate yourself on taking small steps to improve the planet.
This, imo is  what environmentalism  and much else on the political left's agenda is all about, self-congratulation.

As my respected esteemed co-chair of the DST HOF, I select you to dissect to make my point:

CameronPoe wrote:

I've said countless times before - Iranians are by and large a progressive people and Iran is a great nation. The people will see that Ahmedinejad is not re-elected but instead replaced with a moderate like Khatami.
Here we have an example of Cameron A) advocating letting things sort them selves out ( hopefully ) and B) self-congratulating himself by praising the Persian culture.
The reality is, Iran is destabilizing what existing peace there is by being in violation of U.N. mandates in regards to its nuclear program. They are actively engaged in terrorism. You know it, liberals know it.


CameronPoe wrote:

Why should they care about the situation in Iraq? It's not like the US military can do anything about it. It's the Iraqis problem now (always was) - time for them to take charge of their own affairs like proper grown ups. Isn't 'Personal Responsibility' the American way?
Here we have an example of Cameron A) In denial of the reality of the duplicity of the international community stoking the fires of war with toothless resolutions, and B) self-congratulating himself by attempting to " talk down " to America by suggesting we are going against our own ideals in Iraq when the reality is, an Islamic militant governed Middle East will be a disaster for the world. You know it, liberals know it. I'm not faulting Cam for his views, I am simply examining them and asking myself " where is the counter-idea that involves human realities and responsibilities" , when the world surely needs it.

Too often, feel good policies apply bandages to problems while infecting the wound.

One major problem with the left, is that there seems to be a large empty silence when it comes to  " what the fuck now. "

We got it, George Bush is a...bad president, but I need to hear something from the democrats and leftists that doesn't involve a announced withdraw, and the slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis, and other Muslims in the carnage that will surely follow.

/discuss


* edit    Also, Ignorance is no impediment to strong opinions, I'm proof of that.
I read this and now I am less intelligent for it.
2007-05-01 19:33:06
RedTwizzler
I do it for the lulz.
+124|6985|Chicago

ATG wrote:

The reality is, Iran is destabilizing what existing peace there is by being in violation of U.N. mandates in regards to its nuclear program. They are actively engaged in terrorism. You know it, liberals know it.
whoa whoa whoa. Ever hear of the war in Iraq? When did the right wing suddenly start supporting the UN?
2007-05-01 19:38:49
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6675
"Mission Accomplished" isn't self-congratulatory?
2007-05-01 19:44:24
HeimdalX
Member
+37|7099

Sanjaya wrote:

"Mission Accomplished" isn't self-congratulatory?
hahaha


I honestly hate this liberal vs conservative bullshit. When either side is in power its OMG THEY AREN'T DOING ANYTHING! or THEY'RE STUPID!!

All people are idiots, regardless of their political affiliation.

Iraq is done with, if we keep pumping money into Iraq then our economy will collapse. If we leave then its probably genocide. Fucked either way.

And the whole nuclear weapons program, it's like waving a piece of candy in a childs face and saying neener neener! you can't have it! Having a nuke is like having a penis extension for an entire country. I say let em have em, but also tell them we'll introduce them to mr thermonuke if we even think they tested one.
2007-05-01 19:53:15
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Reciprocity wrote:

The "slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis and other muslims" is the ultimate reality and consequence of our actions in Iraq.  The reason I and many liberals advocate pulling out is because I dont want to see one more American Soldier or Marine die in that godawful country.  Sadly, there is no magic bullet solution,  this surge solution is a fantasy.  If that sounds smug, sorry.

As I see it, there are three outcomes in this war.

1.  Iraq will suffer civil/sectarian war and mild genocide
2.  American and Coalition forces will die trying to referee this war
3.  Iran will grow stronger

If we stay there, we get 1,2 and 3. if we leave we only get 1 and 3.

If preserving the lives of American Soldiers and Marines while recouping our overextended military is a "feel good policy", so-fucking-be it.

The "what the fuck now" is we leave and look like assholes, because that's what we are.
ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-01 20:02:47
462nd NSP653
Devout Moderate, Empty Head.
+57|7132

Kmarion wrote:

ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
K-man, I gain more respect for your sensibility everyday. I can't speak for other countries or societies as I've not traveled the world as much as Cam has but in America, there seems to be a frightening trend to blame anyone other than those ACTUALLY responsible. Not to waiver from the OP but the shooting at VA Tech...society, his upbringing, video games, etc. etc. etc....how 'bout we place the blame squarely on the shoulders it belongs.

[edit]And before a reply comes back that it's not about the blame but finding the reason so it can be prevented...there are some people that are going to do evil no matter the circumstance. I've seen it both ways, the VA Tech loaner to the Prom King next door....some folks are just wired that way.[/edit]

Last edited by 462nd NSP653 (2007-05-01 20:05:45)

2007-05-01 20:04:26
Canin
Conservative Roman Catholic
+280|6923|Foothills of S. Carolina

Man, that happens everywhere in life these days. Its never anyones fault, its always someone else's fault, or someone else's job. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves any more.
2007-05-01 20:08:54
KnowMeByTrailOfDead
Jackass of all Trades
+62|7129|Dayton, Ohio

Kmarion wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

The "slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis and other muslims" is the ultimate reality and consequence of our actions in Iraq.  The reason I and many liberals advocate pulling out is because I dont want to see one more American Soldier or Marine die in that godawful country.  Sadly, there is no magic bullet solution,  this surge solution is a fantasy.  If that sounds smug, sorry.

As I see it, there are three outcomes in this war.

1.  Iraq will suffer civil/sectarian war and mild genocide
2.  American and Coalition forces will die trying to referee this war
3.  Iran will grow stronger

If we stay there, we get 1,2 and 3. if we leave we only get 1 and 3.

If preserving the lives of American Soldiers and Marines while recouping our overextended military is a "feel good policy", so-fucking-be it.

The "what the fuck now" is we leave and look like assholes, because that's what we are.
ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
Well that would be like convincing Al Sharpton that Black on Black vilolence is not the fault of a racist police force.
2007-05-01 20:09:05
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7029|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Kmarion wrote:

ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
did some other country fuck Iraq six ways from sunday?  No. that was us.  Sectarian/civil war flourishing in a power vacuum, holy shit, what a breakthrough fucking concept.  who could have forseen that?  I'm not saying these people aren't animals, they are, BUT WE TOOK OUT THE FUCKING ZOO KEEPER.  Could some asshole please stand up and suggest that the Iraqis are better off now than they were in 2002.  save your breath, we all know how shitty Hussein was.  but there are shitty dictators all over the world.
2007-05-01 20:18:47
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Reciprocity wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
did some other country fuck Iraq six ways from sunday?  No. that was us.  Sectarian/civil war flourishing in a power vacuum, holy shit, what a breakthrough fucking concept.  who could have forseen that?  I'm not saying these people aren't animals, they are, BUT WE TOOK OUT THE FUCKING ZOO KEEPER.  Could some asshole please stand up and suggest that the Iraqis are better off now than they were in 2002.  save your breath, we all know how shitty Hussein was.  but there are shitty dictators all over the world.
That's the fucking problem, you guys are alright with a zoo-keeper.


Perhaps our experiment in freedom 101 has failed, but the question remains, or the point still stand you don't have a better idea.

Armchair quarterbacking, criticism without suggestion of a better plan, etc.

As to withdrawing and announcing it or not, I am not fixated on withdraw, I am fixated at a fair shot at freedom for everybody.

That is, after all, why we went there in the first place.
2007-05-01 20:20:50
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Reciprocity wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG you forgot to mention this attitude also. Place all the blame on ourselves while Iraqis are driving chlorine filled tankers into their neighbors restaurant. Why it is so hard for some to point the finger at the actual murderers is beyond me. For underestimating their desire to commit barbaric acts of secretarian violence it gives the animals a pass I guess. They are the ones carrying out these attacks on each other, they must be held accountable first and foremost for their decisions. Ultimately that is.
did some other country fuck Iraq six ways from sunday?  No. that was us.  Sectarian/civil war flourishing in a power vacuum, holy shit, what a breakthrough fucking concept.  who could have forseen that?  I'm not saying these people aren't animals, they are, BUT WE TOOK OUT THE FUCKING ZOO KEEPER.  Could some asshole please stand up and suggest that the Iraqis are better off now than they were in 2002.  save your breath, we all know how shitty Hussein was.  but there are shitty dictators all over the world.
You see thats the error in your view. You think because of our mistakes you are incapable of condemning the people murdering each other (at least now you have recognized them as animals). You can hold both the US and the guys targeting civilians accountable. But when you make a post leaving out the obvious fact that they are intentionally destroying themselves it appears to me you have lost your judgment.

Continue to blame yourself first but don't wonder why the left is seen as defeatist. I'm glad when the United States won their independence we decided to go to the fields, start planting crops, and build our nation. Not quite the same since we were not occupied but we did not revel in self hate. The middle east had a thousand year head start and they still haven't gotten past it.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-01 20:36:43
san4
The Mas
+311|7136|NYC, a place to live
I'm not sure exactly what every part of ATG's OP is getting at, but here is a serious response to the part that asks for a liberal plan that goes beyond "Bush has screwed everything up."

Only liberals can win the "war on terrorism" because liberals know that, in the long run, it is not a war. Yes, it is a war in the short run, but radical anti-US attacks will never end if violence is the only strategy used to stop them. In the long run, human behavior cannot be controlled by violence. (Israel is Exhibit A for that principle.)

One important goal of the Iraq invasion was for the U.S. to help build infrastructure in Iraq. That is a liberal idea: investments in a society will increase economic productivity, freedom and overall well-being.

(The corresponding conservative idea is: cut taxes because "investing" in society is just another name for taking my hard-earned cash and giving it to bureaucrats and bums who live off welfare.)

The liberal aspects of the Iraq invasion have largely failed, but that does not mean the strategy is fundamentally wrong. It was just implemented by corrupt, incompetent people whose main focus was using violence. I'd like to see a smart, competent U.S. government build hospitals, roads, electric power plants and schools in a country whose leaders welcome it. The result could be that the country's economy improves, the people of the country love the U.S and there are fewer radicals. The US would benefit from its investment economically and politically.

The only way to do rebuild Iraq would be for the US to stay until it is stabilized. Even if it takes 20 years, or 50 years. But after all the violence, it's possible the US would get nothing out of it except the satisfaction of rebuilding a country and preventing a brutal civil war. That's probably the best, most moral choice. A crazy alternative might be to bring in Iran to stabilize Iraq. They're going to run the place anyway. Let them earn it by running over hundreds of damned IED's.

But don't let Iraq obscure the basic fact that liberals know how to solve serious problems on a fundamental level: by investing in societies and reaping the long-term rewards.
2007-05-01 20:39:44
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7029|the dank(super) side of Oregon

ATG wrote:

That's the fucking problem, you guys are alright with a zoo-keeper.
because the alternative is chaos.  because the people willing to fight and butcher aren't going to fight and butcher for freedom.

ATG wrote:

Perhaps our experiment in freedom 101 has failed, but the question remains, or the point still stand you don't have a better idea.
the better idea is don't do stupid shit like destabilizing already volitile regions.  I hope we learned a lesson, probably not, we never do.   Oh, and you're in the wrong class, this is freedom 102,  Freedom 101 is down the hall, past South America, keep going.  If you get to korea, you've gone too far.

ATG wrote:

Armchair quarterbacking, criticism without suggestion of a better plan, etc.
yeah, i'm sorry for questioning my government, the most powerful government, with the most powerful military and the best intelligence in the world.  call me crazy, but isn't it their job to consider the consequences of their actions, you know, beyond being greeted with flowers and kisses.

ATG wrote:

As to withdrawing and announcing it or not, I am not fixated on withdraw, I am fixated at a fair shot at freedom for everybody.

That is, after all, why we went there in the first place.
no, you're wrong.  We invaded Iraq because Saddan and Osama were best friends. We invaded Iraq because Saddam had big bad weapons. Remember?

as for a fair shot at freedom.  they dont want it.  is't that obvious?  if they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2007-05-01 20:49:14)

2007-05-01 20:48:52
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Reciprocity wrote:

ATG wrote:

That's the fucking problem, you guys are alright with a zoo-keeper.
because the alternative is chaos.  because the people willing to fight and butcher aren't going to fight and butcher for freedom.

ATG wrote:

Perhaps our experiment in freedom 101 has failed, but the question remains, or the point still stand you don't have a better idea.
the better idea is don't do stupid shit like destabilizing already volitile regions.  I hope we learned a lesson, probably not, we never do. 

ATG wrote:

Armchair quarterbacking, criticism without suggestion of a better plan, etc.
yeah, i'm sorry for questioning my government, the most powerful government, with the most powerful military and the best intelligence in the world.  call me crazy, but isn't it their job to consider the consequences of their actions, you know, beyond being greeted with flowers and kisses.

ATG wrote:

As to withdrawing and announcing it or not, I am not fixated on withdraw, I am fixated at a fair shot at freedom for everybody.

That is, after all, why we went there in the first place.
no, you're wrong.  We invaded Iraq because Saddan and Osama were best friends. We invaded Iraq because Saddam had big bad weapons. Remember?

as for a fair shot at freedom.  they dont want it.  is't that obvious?  if they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.
Nice rant, but it was without suggestion of a  way forward.
2007-05-01 20:48:58
462nd NSP653
Devout Moderate, Empty Head.
+57|7132

Reciprocity wrote:

ATG wrote:

Armchair quarterbacking, criticism without suggestion of a better plan, etc.
yeah, i'm sorry for questioning my government, the most powerful government, with the most powerful military and the best intelligence in the world.  call me crazy, but isn't it their job to consider the consequences of their actions, you know, beyond being greeted with flowers and kisses.
But still no suggestion.

Reciprocity wrote:

as for a fair shot at freedom.  they dont want it.  is't that obvious?  if they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.
You speak for them? All they've known for decades is if you stand up, not only are you slaughtered but so is your wife, kids, parents, friends, etc.. I forgive them for being somewhat timid. Of the guys I have spoken to that are or have been over there, the overwhelming majority of them tell me that the average Iraqi gains courage to stand up for their own country more and more each day. I'm not questioning a bad call going in or a TOTAL lack of preparedness for afterwards...but in the here and now, I think we owe it to that citizen who gains faith in freedom each day to offer assistance until we are told we're not needed any more.
2007-05-01 20:52:26
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7029|the dank(super) side of Oregon

ATG wrote:

Nice rant, but it was without suggestion of a  way forward.
The way forward, as stated in my first post, is we leave and they kill eachother until either Iran has a new subdivision or there is some kind of self created, blood soaked government.   Is that fucking feel-good enough for you?
2007-05-01 20:54:39
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Reciprocity wrote:

ATG wrote:

Nice rant, but it was without suggestion of a  way forward.
The way forward, as stated in my first post, is we leave and they kill eachother until either Iran has a new subdivision or there is some kind of self created, blood soaked government.   Is that fucking feel-good enough for you?
No, but it defines the failure of liberals.
Thanks.

 

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