ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

sergeriver wrote:

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Man ATG opened up a can of worms here he'll regret....
Hardly,
in my view, you are all acknowledging that you have no plan going forward except " see, I told you so " and " let them sort it out."

Which is what I'm saying.
No visible plan.
No  realistic ideas.

Nothing but contempt for Bush and America.
How is that helping again?
Are we quoting other regulars to start a thread now?  It's journalism about journalists.
Call it what you like.
Congrats on your victory Serge.
Talk to you guys in about 14 hours.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6733

ATG wrote:

One major problem with the left, is that there seems to be a large empty silence when it comes to  " what the fuck now. "
Surely withdrawl is a better plan than the current conservative plan which is to continue to do the one thing that everyone already knows doesn't work. The idea of withdawing is a realistic idea. Endless military occupation of the country that has so far failed to bring anything like the desired results is the conservative idea as to 'what the fuck now'. What's better, a plan that might work, or a plan that we already know doesn't work?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7003

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Man ATG opened up a can of worms here he'll regret....
Hardly,
in my view, you are all acknowledging that you have no plan going forward except " see, I told you so " and " let them sort it out."

Which is what I'm saying.
No visible plan.
No  realistic ideas.

Nothing but contempt for Bush and America.
How is that helping again?
No I'm not ATG. I usually say 'I told you so' followed by expounding on the virtues of an isolationist western world getting ahead through its own ingenuinity and responding to threats from within and without by adopting a fortress mentality. I guess you missed that.

Another minor correction:

Nothing but contempt for Bush and America.

Helping? Well it's kind of impossible to help when you aren't a politically well-connected white anglo-saxon protestant member of a masonic lodge who was born into untold wealth so I guess I'm not too good to you on the old 'help' front. Democracy: government for the people by the out of touch with the common man people.

Surely I'm helping when I illustrate how/why the current paths being followed are not going to lead to success and are therefore completely futile and counter-productive and should be terminated and replaced with an alternative strategy?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-02 05:55:39)

Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7110|USA

ATG wrote:

I was in the book store yesterday thumbing through one of the many environmentalist books, towards the end of one I noticed this line;
even if you can't do all you would like toward living green you can at least congradulate yourself on taking small steps to improve the planet.
This, imo is  what environmentalism  and much else on the political left's agenda is all about, self-congratulation.

As my respected esteemed co-chair of the DST HOF, I select you to dissect to make my point:

CameronPoe wrote:

I've said countless times before - Iranians are by and large a progressive people and Iran is a great nation. The people will see that Ahmedinejad is not re-elected but instead replaced with a moderate like Khatami.
Here we have an example of Cameron A) advocating letting things sort them selves out ( hopefully ) and B) self-congratulating himself by praising the Persian culture.
The reality is, Iran is destabilizing what existing peace there is by being in violation of U.N. mandates in regards to its nuclear program. They are actively engaged in terrorism. You know it, liberals know it.


CameronPoe wrote:

Why should they care about the situation in Iraq? It's not like the US military can do anything about it. It's the Iraqis problem now (always was) - time for them to take charge of their own affairs like proper grown ups. Isn't 'Personal Responsibility' the American way?
Here we have an example of Cameron A) In denial of the reality of the duplicity of the international community stoking the fires of war with toothless resolutions, and B) self-congratulating himself by attempting to " talk down " to America by suggesting we are going against our own ideals in Iraq when the reality is, an Islamic militant governed Middle East will be a disaster for the world. You know it, liberals know it. I'm not faulting Cam for his views, I am simply examining them and asking myself " where is the counter-idea that involves human realities and responsibilities" , when the world surely needs it.

Too often, feel good policies apply bandages to problems while infecting the wound.

One major problem with the left, is that there seems to be a large empty silence when it comes to  " what the fuck now. "

We got it, George Bush is a...bad president, but I need to hear something from the democrats and leftists that doesn't involve a announced withdraw, and the slaughter of large amounts of Iraqis, and other Muslims in the carnage that will surely follow.

/discuss


* edit    Also, Ignorance is no impediment to strong opinions, I'm proof of that.
Irans President may have a terrorist agenda, but the PEOPLE of Iran actually support America. Its kind of like Americans don't want to be judged on Bush's failed foreign policy. Neither do the Iranians.

As far as suggesting something without a withdrawel timeline, read that bill Bush just vetoed ATG. Its pretty damn good. Im pretty sure he didn't read it before he vetoed it.
Havok
Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist
+302|7123|Florida, United States

ATG, I asked you a question in a previous post and you must have missed it.  I'm eager to hear your answer.

Havok wrote:

Can you give me a short description on how you would plan to move thousands of soldiers out of an occupied nation in an organized fashion without it being announced?  I realize that unannounced does not mean unplanned, but I fail to comprehend how it could be successfully completed.

I suspect that you would support a gradual withdrawal that does not draw attention to our troops, but I also suspect that the Iraqi insurgents would realize the lack of soldiers and prepare the same method of recapturing Iraq once the majority of our soldiers were absent.  Would this not result in the same effect of doing an immediate, but announced withdrawal?  Yes, the unannounced plan could have success, but in the end, the absence of our troops is going to create a rift in Iraq whether it's announced or not.
You still continue your arguement that Democrats have no viable solution to the Iraq war in this comment.

ATG wrote:

Hardly,
in my view, you are all acknowledging that you have no plan going forward except " see, I told you so " and " let them sort it out."

Which is what I'm saying.
No visible plan.
No  realistic ideas.

Nothing but contempt for Bush and America.
How is that helping again?
I'd like to hear your ideas on a successful removal of our troops, or, if your plan desires it, a solution to "fix" Iraq.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Irans President may have a terrorist agenda, but the PEOPLE of Iran actually support America. Its kind of like Americans don't want to be judged on Bush's failed foreign policy. Neither do the Iranians.

As far as suggesting something without a withdrawel timeline, read that bill Bush just vetoed ATG. Its pretty damn good. Im pretty sure he didn't read it before he vetoed it.
The bill was a steamy pile of shit. There was money for all sorts of boondoogle bullcrap in addition to a ridiculous timeline.

The democrats claim victory because Bush vetoed the bill, while every tax payer claims to hate the pork that was associated with this bill, so...who wins again?
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6821|Kyiv, Ukraine

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

As far as suggesting something without a withdrawel timeline, read that bill Bush just vetoed ATG. Its pretty damn good. Im pretty sure he didn't read it before he vetoed it.
Like a little kid, he already promised a long time ago to veto it, so he didn't need to read it nor would he care too.  By the time he got it, it was a little late to say "hey, this is actually pretty good, lemme get my pen!"

Few people also understand what the bill actually funds.  I even had to correct some Democrats on another board about it.  It does not provide food, paycheck, or basic supplies to the soldiers.  These things are covered by the normal annual military spending budget.

What it does provide for is timely payment of KBR, Blackwater, and other mercenary contracts, money hole contracts to Iraqis, as well as spending on accelerated programs the Republican congress failed to provide for 5 years like SOTA body armor, an accelerated program for re-armoring the HMMVV's, etc, as well as transportation funding for rotations of armor and such on a massive scale.

Again, soldiers will get their paychecks, bullets, and meals as needed and expected, bill or no bill.

What else does the bill do?

Well, first its just loaded with domestic pork that has nothing to do with Iraq.  Both parties have a nearly equal share of the extra appropriations in there.  How they can max out a credit card and just keep on spending is beyond me, but if Bush gets a pet war, then I quess everyone else can have their little pet projects too.

And, Cheney's wet dream, forces Iraq to turn over its nationalized oil to private companies to exploit.  "Some" of the profits will go into a profit-sharing scheme, but the language in the bill allows the companies to withhold these shares until the Iraqi government passes some ridiculous hydrocarbon law.  This same law, which specificly isn't detailed, is also used by our President to withhold money from other programs (Iraqi narcotics enforcement, the "Economic Support Fund', etc.) and use the money elsewhere until the Iraqi's can come into compliance.  Basically, Iraqi's need to pay to go green or our oil companies keep the oil profits and our President re-directs law enforcement and economic aid to something more useful, like playing real life GI Joe somewhere else on the planet. 

The repugs wrote in that part, and the Democrats let it slide so long as the timetables are there.  I think it was Bush's party members trying to put something nice in there so Bush would just sign the damn thing, its actually quite a deal.  He loses his worthless occupation, but his contractor buddies get richer, and the Democrats can say "Hey look, oil profit sharing, very populist...and green!"

ATG wrote:

The democrats claim victory because Bush vetoed the bill, while every tax payer claims to hate the pork that was associated with this bill, so...who wins again?
If the bill is dead and stays dead, everyone wins

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-05-02 15:25:34)

GATOR591957
Member
+84|7075
ATG, exactly what do you think is going on now????  You don't hear the numbers of Iraqi's that have been killed, let alone misplaced.  There is a reason why.  It gives credence to the withdraw of our troops.  I keep hearing the right saying look what happened in Vietnam.  I didn't see the North Vietnamese follow us home.  Which is what the right wing is using as an excuse to stay.  Let's bring our boys home.  Pay off our debt to them and the contractors that haven't finished one rebuilding project yet.  And finally, rebuild our armed forces into faster response units that can be anywhere within 48 hrs.   Let's face it,  we as a country were not prepared to fight this kind of war.  It's not worth a "pay as you go, on the job training" kind of thing.  Our boys are tired, beat up and the country has had enough.  Our boys didn't lose this war, our leadership did.  I will count the Generals and Senior command as responsible as anyone in this.  However, the right can say what it wants, but there is one man and one man only who had the final say on whether to go or not go to war.....
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

GATOR591957 wrote:

ATG, exactly what do you think is going on now????  You don't hear the numbers of Iraqi's that have been killed, let alone misplaced.  There is a reason why.  It gives credence to the withdraw of our troops.  I keep hearing the right saying look what happened in Vietnam.  I didn't see the North Vietnamese follow us home.  Which is what the right wing is using as an excuse to stay.  Let's bring our boys home.  Pay off our debt to them and the contractors that haven't finished one rebuilding project yet.  And finally, rebuild our armed forces into faster response units that can be anywhere within 48 hrs.   Let's face it,  we as a country were not prepared to fight this kind of war.  It's not worth a "pay as you go, on the job training" kind of thing.  Our boys are tired, beat up and the country has had enough.  Our boys didn't lose this war, our leadership did.  I will count the Generals and Senior command as responsible as anyone in this.  However, the right can say what it wants, but there is one man and one man only who had the final say on whether to go or not go to war.....
What the right is saying, in part is, lets not let another Pol Pot style killing fields happen.


For the record, I'm no republican shill, I despise corruption. I'm looking forward.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

For the record, I'm no republican shill, I despise corruption. I'm looking forward.
I'm glad you turned the corner. You had me worried for awhile.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7003

ATG wrote:

What the right is saying, in part is, lets not let another Pol Pot style killing fields happen.
You kind of already have let that happen...
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

What the right is saying, in part is, lets not let another Pol Pot style killing fields happen.
You kind of already have let that happen...
Oh dear, the only thing I can think to say is, what a lot of horseshit.

They executed a great many people by hammer. Where are we doing that.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7003

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

What the right is saying, in part is, lets not let another Pol Pot style killing fields happen.
You kind of already have let that happen...
Oh dear, the only thing I can think to say is, what a lot of horseshit.

They executed a great many people by hammer. Where are we doing that.
Are 50 to 150 people not being killed on a daily basis in Iraq. Or did I dream it? Are you just aiming in particular at hammer-wielding menaces?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-02 15:51:52)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
The situation is bad, but not comparable to government thugs tying peoples hands behind thier backs and bashing their heads in.

Those things and worse are happening, but it isn't U.S. troops that have done it, it is largely Shia/Sunni violence.

Call me a fool, but I do believe in a global responsibility to intervene in sisuations where people are killing themselves. Darfur for example.
The international community should step in even if that means redrawing borders and relocating people.
Airstrikes even.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7003

ATG wrote:

The situation is bad, but not comparable to government thugs tying peoples hands behind thier backs and bashing their heads in.

Those things and worse are happening, but it isn't U.S. troops that have done it, it is largely Shia/Sunni violence.

Call me a fool, but I do believe in a global responsibility to intervene in sisuations where people are killing themselves. Darfur for example.
The international community should step in even if that means redrawing borders and relocating people.
Airstrikes even.
I never said US troops did it. The choices taken by the US government have led to a situation where indiscriminate and horrific killing happens on an alarmingly regular basis - i.e., they 'allowed that to happen'. I'm an isolationist ATG - as an Irishman who identifies with those dealing with interference and supposed 'do-gooding' - you'll never persuade me to intervene directly in a culturally alien region of the world far from my own doorstep. Send them some rice sure, but boots on the ground? No thanks - unless they're a very real, direct and imminent threat to my homeland (which they aren't and never were).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-02 16:13:35)

m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7119|UK

ATG wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

ATG wrote:

No, but it defines the failure of liberals.
Thanks.
I guess the liberals fail becasue they cant get out of Iraq as easily as conservative president got into Iraq.
what do you expect me to say?  more of the same?  hell, why not implement this surge in the entire country.  let's just put a million troops there.  maybe that will solve 1500 years worth of problems.  you want liberals to fix it?  I guess it's nothing but liberals and conservatives now.  is that all that's left? then how about this?  fuck you conservatives, it's your fucking problem you fix it.
This is what I'm talking about.



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? … 2FShowFull

What's the liberal response to this?
More of the same, no doubt.
Shock! Horror!  Someone form Hamas wants Americans dead!

Please, the hell do you need to post that from a Jewish newspaper?! The fleas on my neighbours rabid dog could have sung that to you.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6967|Πάϊ

ATG wrote:

Ignorance is no impediment to strong opinions, I'm proof of that.
Not only does it not impede, ignorance is sometimes the cause of strong opinions... But admitting one's ignorance is a sign of wisdom ATG, so I can't say the above goes for you.


I have encountered this message everywhere lately: "Follow us in our aggression, otherwise you are cowards who hope it will all magically go away". Latest and most striking example, Leonidas and his faithful 300 supposedly leaving off to war despite the will of the degenerate assholes up on the mountain.

Its not like that at all. The difference being that this time round the western world is on the offense. And if you think about it, the only thing that keeps the masses from seeing through that is 9/11, the London bombings and some other minor terrorist attacks. I'm curious to see which event will eventually seem like a disproportionate retaliation. Will it be Iran? And if so, (bearing in mind that they lied to us about the WMDs in Iraq), to what extent  are they willing to go to make us back up their attack?

For the record, I think that "an Islamic militant governed Middle East will be a disaster" for them first of all, and then for the rest of the world. Hence, if we truly are advocating democracy, we have no choice but to leave them decide their own fate. For infringing our will upon them is surely the opposite of what we preach.

So do not mistake reluctance to go along with offensive undemocratic policies as weakness or lack of responsibility. More like the opposite.
ƒ³
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6675
Honestly ATG, you seem to have failed to address what exactly "Mission Accomplished" would be considered.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Sanjaya wrote:

Honestly ATG, you seem to have failed to address what exactly "Mission Accomplished" would be considered.
I'll address you when you apologise for your Daniel Pearl comments, until then, kindly piss off.
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6675

ATG wrote:

Sanjaya wrote:

Honestly ATG, you seem to have failed to address what exactly "Mission Accomplished" would be considered.
I'll address you when you apologise for your Daniel Pearl comments, until then, kindly piss off.
I think you should apologize to us for maintaining that Daniel Pearl was this magnificent genius who clearly made great choices in life. And also for being so rude to me.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Sanjaya wrote:

ATG wrote:

Sanjaya wrote:

Honestly ATG, you seem to have failed to address what exactly "Mission Accomplished" would be considered.
I'll address you when you apologise for your Daniel Pearl comments, until then, kindly piss off.
I think you should apologize to us for maintaining that Daniel Pearl was this magnificent genius who clearly made great choices in life. And also for being so rude to me.
Your a lunatic.
I'll do you the favor of not reminding everybody what you said about him.
Good day.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7210

ATG wrote:

Sanjaya wrote:

ATG wrote:


I'll address you when you apologise for your Daniel Pearl comments, until then, kindly piss off.
I think you should apologize to us for maintaining that Daniel Pearl was this magnificent genius who clearly made great choices in life. And also for being so rude to me.
Your a lunatic.
I'll do you the favor of not reminding everybody what you said about him.
Good day.
Some of us remember.


*you're*
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6675
You don't have to remind them. I will. I think he was a dumbass.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7029|the dank(super) side of Oregon
this would be my ultimate plan. 

1. we leave Iraq.

2. put our military back together

3. take some of the rediculous amounts of money we've would have spent on Iraq, and spend it on our sercurity.  developing new technology augmenting our existing measures.  every piece of cargo would be scrutinized.  every immigrant and foreign visitor, Arab, Jew, German, Canadian, whatever, would be tracked, monitored, and regulated.  I would love to see a fortress America.  would also invest in intelligence improvements, for starters, hiring people who actually speak arabic and every other language in the world.

4.  take some of the money we would have spent on Iraq and invest in developing more efficient sources of energy.  abandoning the middle east's, and the rest of the world's oil is probably the single best foreign relations and security move we could make.

and there would still be enough money left over to fix healthcare, social security, end child poverty, and fix the roads in california.
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7103|United States of America
this is my plan:

1.  Send all Shites to Iran.

2.  Send all Sunnis to Saudi.

3.  Send all Kurds to Turkey.

4.  Move in all the illegal Mexicans to Iraq.

5.  Mexicans pump all the oil out of Iraq and it is taken to US.

6.  Leave afore mentioned Mexicans in Iraq.

Last edited by Major_Spittle (2007-05-02 19:32:56)

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