i think you might have had that backwards. Not all liberals are Dems, but most Dems are liberalsAgent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Uhhh, so what? It has been this way since at least the 1960s. That hasn't stopped people from having political affiliations with parties other than the Dems.
And ATG, please stop using liberals and Democrats as interchangeable terms. It's no different than the comment that not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim. The same thing here. Not all Democrats are liberals, but most liberals are Democrats.
I myself usually vote Democrat, but only for those with more moderate stances. The flip side of the dredid liberals, that of the neo-cons, is no better in any way, shape, or form.
Well, it does seem to be about American universities, but I can see your point. We have enough anti-Americanism in this forum already xDk30dxedle wrote:
Or, just pass the blame onto the Americans, wash your hands, and be done with it.Vilham wrote:
I love reading the replys by some of the American posters here. More than not they post something like "damn liberals" or "damn conservatives" seriously not everything is black and white. You guys seem to love the blame game, pass the blame onto the other political side of the spectrum...
-konfusion
A few things.
ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11
Who says it's indoctrination? Aren't people allowed to make up your own minds? And would the filmmakers care if the so-called indoctrination was "JOIN THE GOP?"
Not to mention most college kids are too busy getting wasted to care about those terrible, terrible, liberal causes. Such as not rabidly and blindly supporting Israel (Funny thing is Stormfront is all about the Jews controlling university campuses. So which is it? Liberals, Jews, or Liberal Jews ruining college? I just know the pro-Israeli stance wasn't jammed down my throat)
Also, why should I believe a "documentary" that clearly is biased and revealing one side of the issue. Take a few examples of the professor and student letting their own personal views get in the way of learning, and we're back to "ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11 ADN AMERIKA!!!!11"
ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11
Who says it's indoctrination? Aren't people allowed to make up your own minds? And would the filmmakers care if the so-called indoctrination was "JOIN THE GOP?"
Not to mention most college kids are too busy getting wasted to care about those terrible, terrible, liberal causes. Such as not rabidly and blindly supporting Israel (Funny thing is Stormfront is all about the Jews controlling university campuses. So which is it? Liberals, Jews, or Liberal Jews ruining college? I just know the pro-Israeli stance wasn't jammed down my throat)
Also, why should I believe a "documentary" that clearly is biased and revealing one side of the issue. Take a few examples of the professor and student letting their own personal views get in the way of learning, and we're back to "ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11 ADN AMERIKA!!!!11"
Where do you get the idea this is an issue with liberals? This is not an issue of liberal vs conservative politics, this is an issue of the older entrenched elite and their battle to uphold the status quo in the face of change. It is essentially analogous to the lutheran reform of the catholic church.Sanjaya wrote:
A few things.
ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11
Who says it's indoctrination? Aren't people allowed to make up your own minds? And would the filmmakers care if the so-called indoctrination was "JOIN THE GOP?"
Not to mention most college kids are too busy getting wasted to care about those terrible, terrible, liberal causes. Such as not rabidly and blindly supporting Israel (Funny thing is Stormfront is all about the Jews controlling university campuses. So which is it? Liberals, Jews, or Liberal Jews ruining college? I just know the pro-Israeli stance wasn't jammed down my throat)
Also, why should I believe a "documentary" that clearly is biased and revealing one side of the issue. Take a few examples of the professor and student letting their own personal views get in the way of learning, and we're back to "ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11 ADN AMERIKA!!!!11"
great thread!11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
College indoctrination issues have ALWAYS been about alleged liberal bias, outside of the Ivy League, where your argument about the entrenched elite and the status quo is relevant.jonsimon wrote:
Where do you get the idea this is an issue with liberals? This is not an issue of liberal vs conservative politics, this is an issue of the older entrenched elite and their battle to uphold the status quo in the face of change. It is essentially analogous to the lutheran reform of the catholic church.Sanjaya wrote:
A few things.
ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11
Who says it's indoctrination? Aren't people allowed to make up your own minds? And would the filmmakers care if the so-called indoctrination was "JOIN THE GOP?"
Not to mention most college kids are too busy getting wasted to care about those terrible, terrible, liberal causes. Such as not rabidly and blindly supporting Israel (Funny thing is Stormfront is all about the Jews controlling university campuses. So which is it? Liberals, Jews, or Liberal Jews ruining college? I just know the pro-Israeli stance wasn't jammed down my throat)
Also, why should I believe a "documentary" that clearly is biased and revealing one side of the issue. Take a few examples of the professor and student letting their own personal views get in the way of learning, and we're back to "ZOMG LIBRALZ RUINING COLLEGE!!!!11 ADN AMERIKA!!!!11"
Republicans always whine about liberal college bias. That's why they have such forward thinking institutions like Bob Jones University and BYU.
I'm pretty sure I saw both right/left people in the video (one guy announced it). I thought it was more to do with suppressing free speech/expression.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Yea, those 18-25 year old know so much about life.....Vilham wrote:
As to the topic. Im glad the uni's in England seem to at least listen slightly to the students, thats why voting student representatives is so important.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I think this is the crux of the situation. Many liberals believe that "knowledge" reflects political opinions.Pubic wrote:
Thats a sorry situation. University should be about knowledge, not political opinion.
For example, what books should be taught in literature classes? Until fairly recently, books by women and non-whites were largely ignored in U.S. literature classes because, among other reasons, women and non-whites were traditionally viewed as inferior to white men in ways that made it seem more worthwhile to read books written by white men. So the choice of books in a literature class involves continuing that tradition or abandoning it. And letting a few female and non-white authors "speak" involves silencing some white male authors.
Many liberals also believe that the questions people ask can promote political beliefs. To take a recent example from bf2s.com, there was a poll asking, "Do you hate blacks?" It was mercifully closed (after a while), but merely posing the question was racist because it asked people to make unjustified statements about individuals based only on their group membership. Even responding "I like blacks" would have been racist because it assumes that "blacks" are similar enough that it is possible to like all of them. But of course you can like Colin Powell and dislike Al Sharpton. There's no such thing as liking or disliking "blacks". The only non-racist way to respond to that poll was to criticize the poll itself, not answer the question it posed. So questions can promote racism and the only non-racist response can be to criticize the questions, not answer them.
I haven't watched the video, but these sorts of ideas are what drive liberals to attack and suppress speech.
A lot of middle aged people are equally as clueless, but even less willing to change their opinions.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Yea, those 18-25 year old know so much about life.....Vilham wrote:
As to the topic. Im glad the uni's in England seem to at least listen slightly to the students, thats why voting student representatives is so important.
Age does not dictate wisdom, but it does help. Still, plenty of people remain morons for their entire lives (or become that way with age due to stubbornness).
Yea but I think when you are 18-25 hormones will trump all rational thought..lolTurquoise wrote:
A lot of middle aged people are equally as clueless, but even less willing to change their opinions.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Yea, those 18-25 year old know so much about life.....Vilham wrote:
As to the topic. Im glad the uni's in England seem to at least listen slightly to the students, thats why voting student representatives is so important.
Age does not dictate wisdom, but it does help. Still, plenty of people remain morons for their entire lives (or become that way with age due to stubbornness).
Xbone Stormsurgezz
For a lot of people, yes, but then again, you could say tradition does the same to older people.Kmarion wrote:
Yea but I think when you are 18-25 hormones will trump all rational thought..lolTurquoise wrote:
A lot of middle aged people are equally as clueless, but even less willing to change their opinions.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Yea, those 18-25 year old know so much about life.....
Age does not dictate wisdom, but it does help. Still, plenty of people remain morons for their entire lives (or become that way with age due to stubbornness).
To me, most tradition is just as hollow as hormones.
Hormones don't substitute for life experience. Shit, think back (if you are older than 30) to what you thought you knew. Hell the VP debate in the last election where Dick beat the piss out of Edwards is a prime example of a man with age, class, wisdom and patience (Dickster) vs. the young, arrogant, asinine and smug Edwards.Turquoise wrote:
For a lot of people, yes, but then again, you could say tradition does the same to older people.Kmarion wrote:
Yea but I think when you are 18-25 hormones will trump all rational thought..lolTurquoise wrote:
A lot of middle aged people are equally as clueless, but even less willing to change their opinions.
Age does not dictate wisdom, but it does help. Still, plenty of people remain morons for their entire lives (or become that way with age due to stubbornness).
To me, most tradition is just as hollow as hormones.
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004b.html
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Well I'll agree he has age, and probably patience, but he certainly doesn't have class.DBBrinson1 wrote:
where Dick beat the piss out of Edwards is a prime example of a man with age, class, wisdom and patience (Dickster)
Yup, I have.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
I'm curious if anyone who has actually attended college has had his grade slashed based on his political views.
Was about 5 or 6 years ago. I was Majoring in business at the local Community College. My Business teacher was extremely liberal. Almost all of her classes seemed to be run around how employees should be treated, how unions are healthy for business and so on. She hardly ever went over things like supply and demand, marketing or any of the things you normally associate with business, it was usually just stuff on how to make your employees happy, which I agree is useful, but it doesn't make a good business if that's all you do.
I was also taking an Economics course at the same time, the teacher was rather boring, didn't really seem to express a political view one way or another, and never deviated from the topic for the 90 minute lecture... it was hard to stay awake.
Anyhow, finals came around, and the weirdest thing happened, the final essay that the teachers asked for in my business class, and my econ class were identical. "How does the declining value of the Dollar affect American Business". In my business class, this essay was 50% of my grade for the semester, it was only 10% in my econ class. I thought, "kick ass, I can write one essay for two classes" and that's exactly what I did.
Keep in mind this was right after bush got into office, and my business teacher had this weird notion that nothing good in the economy could happen if bush was in office
I of course made a mistake of writing a point-counterpoint style essay, and she gave me a failing grade on the essay for my section on how a declining dollar can have a benefit to business.
My Econ teacher gave me an A for the exact same essay.
As you can imagine, I was rather pissed off. I approached my Business teacher and showed her that I had managed to get an A on the exact same essay from a different teacher. She told me that it wasn't her problem, and that the other teacher was obviously wrong. I wound up taking it over her head and talked to the head of the Business Department of the school. After a month of making several phone calls and dealing with arbitration, I got the grade overturned and got a B in my business class. The Business teacher was also suspended for one semester with out pay.
The whole fiasco made me quite college for two years. Wound up discovering a Gunsmithing school while surfing the internet trying to find someone to rebarrel my SVD. Wound up going to that school, graduated after two years and have been a gunsmith ever since.
its strange how life turns out.ts-pulsar wrote:
Yup, I have.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
I'm curious if anyone who has actually attended college has had his grade slashed based on his political views.
Was about 5 or 6 years ago. I was Majoring in business at the local Community College. My Business teacher was extremely liberal. Almost all of her classes seemed to be run around how employees should be treated, how unions are healthy for business and so on. She hardly ever went over things like supply and demand, marketing or any of the things you normally associate with business, it was usually just stuff on how to make your employees happy, which I agree is useful, but it doesn't make a good business if that's all you do.
I was also taking an Economics course at the same time, the teacher was rather boring, didn't really seem to express a political view one way or another, and never deviated from the topic for the 90 minute lecture... it was hard to stay awake.
Anyhow, finals came around, and the weirdest thing happened, the final essay that the teachers asked for in my business class, and my econ class were identical. "How does the declining value of the Dollar affect American Business". In my business class, this essay was 50% of my grade for the semester, it was only 10% in my econ class. I thought, "kick ass, I can write one essay for two classes" and that's exactly what I did.
Keep in mind this was right after bush got into office, and my business teacher had this weird notion that nothing good in the economy could happen if bush was in office
I of course made a mistake of writing a point-counterpoint style essay, and she gave me a failing grade on the essay for my section on how a declining dollar can have a benefit to business.
My Econ teacher gave me an A for the exact same essay.
As you can imagine, I was rather pissed off. I approached my Business teacher and showed her that I had managed to get an A on the exact same essay from a different teacher. She told me that it wasn't her problem, and that the other teacher was obviously wrong. I wound up taking it over her head and talked to the head of the Business Department of the school. After a month of making several phone calls and dealing with arbitration, I got the grade overturned and got a B in my business class. The Business teacher was also suspended for one semester with out pay.
The whole fiasco made me quite college for two years. Wound up discovering a Gunsmithing school while surfing the internet trying to find someone to rebarrel my SVD. Wound up going to that school, graduated after two years and have been a gunsmith ever since.
when i went to college i was hell bent on working in a history museum for the rest of my life, so i had committed to do the whole eight years. when i was still attending i had met a blacksmith through a friend of a friend of a friend, my natural interest in knives took over and i started playing with steel as a hobby.
early american history was my wake up call. the professor was a liberal, and while i dont have a problem with him teaching me, i have a problem with him forcing his beliefs upon his students. example: when pat tillman was killed in afghanistan the professor took the article from the NY times, made copies, and passed out to each of the students for them to keep. now i have no problem with people being educated on how he was killed and the disgraceful purposes the government used it for, but it doesnt have a fucking thing to do with early american history. things like that happened the whole time and though i never said anything, towards the end i would pretty much sit and stare at him with my "war face" on. the straw that broke the camels back was when he failed a paper of mine because according to him, rifles werent a technological advantage over bows and arrows. i walked to his desk and told him to go get a bow and arrow and ill get a flintlock rifle, we stand one hundred yards apart and see who goes down first.....he didnt like that idea, and thats when i walked out. luckily my wife (fiance at the time) was very understanding and supported me when i decided to turn my hobby into a business. i havent looked back since, and im the happiest i have ever been.
thank you asshat professor.
I think Sanjaya has the right idea. Cheney has age and patience, but no class.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Hormones don't substitute for life experience. Shit, think back (if you are older than 30) to what you thought you knew. Hell the VP debate in the last election where Dick beat the piss out of Edwards is a prime example of a man with age, class, wisdom and patience (Dickster) vs. the young, arrogant, asinine and smug Edwards.Turquoise wrote:
For a lot of people, yes, but then again, you could say tradition does the same to older people.Kmarion wrote:
Yea but I think when you are 18-25 hormones will trump all rational thought..lol
To me, most tradition is just as hollow as hormones.
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004b.html
Remember the incident between Leahy and him? Or how about his notoriously bad aim with a shotgun, and the victim's apology afterward?.... I can't blame Cheney for finding the most sycophantic friends possible, but he's still no pinnacle of class in any way.
Edwards, by contrast, seems to have come a long way since that debate. Most of what he said during it was fluff, but that's still better than the various outright lies Cheney said during it. Honesty is the primary component of class or dignity.
Getting back to my original point, I would agree that hormones aren't a substitute for experience, but you can have all the experience in the world and still have shitty perception (like Colin Powell when he made his case for entering Iraq at the U.N.).
Exactly. This is not a left vs. right issue, it is the reluctance to adapt curriculum to changes in knowledge.Kmarion wrote:
I'm pretty sure I saw both right/left people in the video (one guy announced it). I thought it was more to do with suppressing free speech/expression.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
yet if you take a poll to see if there is a left wing bias you get shouted down here and you are told
" no such thing exists "....hmmm ?
" no such thing exists "....hmmm ?
you must be joking if you think right wing views are tolerated on campuses.jonsimon wrote:
Exactly. This is not a left vs. right issue, it is the reluctance to adapt curriculum to changes in knowledge.Kmarion wrote:
I'm pretty sure I saw both right/left people in the video (one guy announced it). I thought it was more to do with suppressing free speech/expression.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
It is totally a left vs right issue.
Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-05-03 16:32:23)
No, it isn't. You may not realize it, but university politics is very conservative. It is business politics. The universities and colleges fight tooth and nail against any change at all. This is not an issue with "teachers are liberals" this is a much deeper problem that requires some serious reforms. Trivializing the state of modern higher education in the US by labeling it as a conflict between left-wing and right-wing politics will only worsen the condition of every student affected. You will accomplish nothing by turning this into a crazy conspiracy theory that somehow liberals have infested our schools and are turning all our children into commies.Hunter/Jumper wrote:
you must be joking if you think right wing views are tolerated on campuses.jonsimon wrote:
Exactly. This is not a left vs. right issue, it is the reluctance to adapt curriculum to changes in knowledge.Kmarion wrote:
I'm pretty sure I saw both right/left people in the video (one guy announced it). I thought it was more to do with suppressing free speech/expression.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
It is totally a left vs right issue.
There is a left-wing bias in most colleges, but not in the overall media.Hunter/Jumper wrote:
yet if you take a poll to see if there is a left wing bias you get shouted down here and you are told
" no such thing exists "....hmmm ?
The media is biased in favor of profit and sensationalism.
Some campuses are conservative, but yeah, most are liberal.Hunter/Jumper wrote:
you must be joking if you think right wing views are tolerated on campuses.jonsimon wrote:
Exactly. This is not a left vs. right issue, it is the reluctance to adapt curriculum to changes in knowledge.Kmarion wrote:
I'm pretty sure I saw both right/left people in the video (one guy announced it). I thought it was more to do with suppressing free speech/expression.
Penn Jillette is libertarian and pretty far away from the right on the political scale. This is not a republican exclusive complaint.
It is totally a left vs right issue.
Then again, that's like looking for a liberal talk radio station. Sure, they exist, but they're very few in number.