DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7133|United States of America
Breakdown of Feelings towards Capital Punishment

1. Death Penalty Deters Murder
Side one of asomewhat polarized debate on the death penalty. This view cites studies that enforcing the death penalty decreases murder and when it is not enforced, the contrary occurs. This view suggests that there is a significant deterrent effect on would-be murderers. It argues that because what some might call state sanctioned murder is justified by the crimes that warrant a death sentence.

2. Death Penalty Causes Murder
This suggests that criminals become very violent since they are aware that their actions will end them either dead from a pursuit or execution, leaving them with nothing to lose. The law of capital punishment makes it seem that it is okay to kill another human and makes the state seem guilty of this crime, arguing that the government has no authority to deprive even a criminal of life. Also, you get the phenomenon of the state performed suicides that people who describe themselves as "tired of living" who commit a major crime to get executed.

3. More Executions = More Deterrence
Here's what may be seen as the most barbaric ideology towards punishment. This is designed to put such a fear of death into would-be criminals so that crime will decrease. Here it can be argued that the value of a deterrant is lost because it is not employed on a frequent enough basis. However, it could be seen that this has some of the same problems as the first belief.

4. Deterrence Cannot Justify Killing
What may be seen as a more gentle approach, here we explore that no matter how large of a deterring effect that a gruesome execution may produce, it cannot possibly justify the taking of ones life. The government is playing God and deciding what humans cannot be allowed to do. Long term imprisonment is enough punishment and deterrant to criminals since many murders are unplanned anyway.

There's also a few more among which is one that suggests the studies on capital punishment are always inconclusive on this issue and many conflict with eachother on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Onto the criminal justice system as well, no matter how much politicians and officials say they're focusing on "rehabilitation" in prisons, punishment is a factor as well. The criminal justice system was historically designed to get revenge for those who have been wronged and that is still apparent. This may account for the failures of career criminals to rejoin society no matter how much time is spent in an institution. Is it even right for people to be locked up their whole lives for something done at a young age? Are some people beyond repair, so to speak? How can it be improved?
All important ideas I hoped could get us off of the usual course in this subforum. I'm not forcing you to pick anything in the post to reply to either, discuss the morality of the death penalty, your strategy for prisons, whatever; have at it.
bonedoc69
Member
+36|6859|Eugene, Oregon U.S.A.
I find it interesting that we are one of the last "1st world" government's that still use the death penalty. As far as a deterrent, The concept seems lost in the sea of appeals. I understand the importance of the appeals, just talk to the people at project innocence, however once a crime is committed it is many years until the sentence is carried out. By the time the criminal is actually put to death the crime itself is mostly forgotten by the general public, with some obvious exceptions.
As far as the prison system goes the rate of incarceration in this country seems a bit out of control. We have become a country who's solution to a wide variety of social problems has become "lock em up and forget about it" rather than addressing the root problems. Non violent drug offenders are a good example of this.
I'm not going to say I have anything that comes close to a solution, but I do think we need to take a serious look at this situation and question our motives.

Last edited by bonedoc69 (2007-05-07 17:43:27)

Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7204|United States of America
Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
Canin
Conservative Roman Catholic
+280|6923|Foothills of S. Carolina

Ive thought about this for a while, and here is my take. I believe there are more people on death row than will ever actually be put to death. The death penalty is not the deterrent it once was due to the appeals processes, not that all appeals are bad. There should be a better way of rehabilitating criminals back into society, however, with repeat offenders, its often the case where they cannot seem to survive outside of the system. I think criminals in prison, and more specifically repeat offenders and violent criminals, should have less than those who are destitute in the streets. If people saw that prison was not going to be three good meals a day, a roof over their head and a place to sleep, watch tv and workout, they would be less likely to want to turn to that. I dont have a great solution for it unfortunately. This is just my view of it.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7133|United States of America

sergeriver wrote:

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
On a related note, ever see The Life of David Gale? That movie is deep and somewhat relevant to death penalty discussions.
BigmacK
Back from the Dead.
+628|7199|Chicago.
I personally have a problem with the death penalty. I just don't see how the state has the right to take someone's life. Even if they are a murderer.

I have no problem with letting them rot in prison however.
bonedoc69
Member
+36|6859|Eugene, Oregon U.S.A.

sergeriver wrote:

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
I just went and did a bit of research, the innocence project has exonerated 188 people as of December  2006, some of these people were on death row while others had life sentences handed down with out the possibility of parole. So the fact is innocent people have been killed for crimes they didn't commit, no question, fact. Don't take these statements to mean that I think the majority of offenders incarcerated are wrongfully accused, I don't. I cant stand behind a law however that leaves the possibility of even one wrongly convicted person losing there life. The possible (disputed) benefits of deterring crime becomes a moot point in my opinion when innocent people die.




The Life of David Gale was a great movie by the way.

Last edited by bonedoc69 (2007-05-07 18:17:32)

HunterOfSkulls
Rated EC-10
+246|6728
Well, you'll get a lot of people saying it's better than some innocents die than allow a guilty person to go free. That tune changes real quick when it's themselves or someone they care about on the chopping block. My two cents? Death is way too easy and it's irreversable. Let the guilty ones rot for 50-70 years and never know what it's like to have a moment's peace or a good meal or just basic freedom. At least you can release the innocent ones from that; you can't release them from the grave.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6990|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
I'm of the belief that it's more cruel to put someone in for life.  So much so I favor the death penalty, for many reasons.

And I also believe that if the person is innocent, a life sentence is more cruel than ending it right then.  Plus you're bringing in a flaw in the legal system which has nothing to do with whether a punishment is just.

So what's more cruel - taking away a life or taking away a person's will?
bonedoc69
Member
+36|6859|Eugene, Oregon U.S.A.

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
I'm of the belief that it's more cruel to put someone in for life.  So much so I favor the death penalty, for many reasons.

And I also believe that if the person is innocent, a life sentence is more cruel than ending it right then.  Plus you're bringing in a flaw in the legal system which has nothing to do with whether a punishment is just.

So what's more cruel - taking away a life or taking away a person's will?
The problem I see with this point of view is the cruelty of a life sentence versus the death penalty is a matter of opinion, some may prefer life to death even if its a life of incarceration, while others would prefer death. Secondly, its never a case of "ending it right then" mandatory appeals and motions on both the defence and prosecution sides delay the actual execution from ten, up to twenty years from the conviction date. Again far past the public's collective memory. So is the death penalty simply an eye for an eye punishment, or is it meant to deter future crimes?
EVieira
Member
+105|6926|Lutenblaag, Molvania
Well, at least the death penalty is one thing the US, Iran and North Korea agree upon. There you go, they aren't so bad after all...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6990|Texas - Bigger than France

bonedoc69 wrote:

The problem I see with this point of view is the cruelty of a life sentence versus the death penalty is a matter of opinion, some may prefer life to death even if its a life of incarceration, while others would prefer death. Secondly, its never a case of "ending it right then" mandatory appeals and motions on both the defence and prosecution sides delay the actual execution from ten, up to twenty years from the conviction date. Again far past the public's collective memory. So is the death penalty simply an eye for an eye punishment, or is it meant to deter future crimes?
Well, both.  I watch CSI.  Trust me.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Miller wrote:

Kill them all, they did the crime, let them pay for it.
What if you kill the innocent guy?  Will you bring him back to life if you discover he was innocent?
I'm of the belief that it's more cruel to put someone in for life.  So much so I favor the death penalty, for many reasons.

And I also believe that if the person is innocent, a life sentence is more cruel than ending it right then.  Plus you're bringing in a flaw in the legal system which has nothing to do with whether a punishment is just.

So what's more cruel - taking away a life or taking away a person's will?
Since the legal system has flaws, you can't be sure you are killing the right dude.  What if that guy was innocent?  That's my whole point.  If there would be a 100% accurate system to determine someone's guilt then I would support death penalty.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6990|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Since the legal system has flaws, you can't be sure you are killing the right dude.  What if that guy was innocent?  That's my whole point.  If there would be a 100% accurate system to determine someone's guilt then I would support death penalty.
Your argument is that the punishment is unjust, which is a separate issue than a flawed legal system.  The punishment has nothing to do with the other.

And if you want to continue on that path - what's more cruel to an wrongly convicted person - life imprisonment versus death?  I think incarceration for life is essentially torture.  Imagine if it was life imprisonment for an innocent.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Since the legal system has flaws, you can't be sure you are killing the right dude.  What if that guy was innocent?  That's my whole point.  If there would be a 100% accurate system to determine someone's guilt then I would support death penalty.
Your argument is that the punishment is unjust, which is a separate issue than a flawed legal system.  The punishment has nothing to do with the other.

And if you want to continue on that path - what's more cruel to an wrongly convicted person - life imprisonment versus death?  I think incarceration for life is essentially torture.  Imagine if it was life imprisonment for an innocent.
If you send a guy to jail for life, you'd be able to set him free if you'd discover he was innocent.  The punishment has to do with the system's flaws.  You can't bring an innocent guy back to life.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6990|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Since the legal system has flaws, you can't be sure you are killing the right dude.  What if that guy was innocent?  That's my whole point.  If there would be a 100% accurate system to determine someone's guilt then I would support death penalty.
Your argument is that the punishment is unjust, which is a separate issue than a flawed legal system.  The punishment has nothing to do with the other.

And if you want to continue on that path - what's more cruel to an wrongly convicted person - life imprisonment versus death?  I think incarceration for life is essentially torture.  Imagine if it was life imprisonment for an innocent.
If you send a guy to jail for life, you'd be able to set him free if you'd discover he was innocent.  The punishment has to do with the system's flaws.  You can't bring an innocent guy back to life.
It takes 20 years to kill someone on average...

So basically after 20 years, how much new evidence is going to be brought to the table?  In other words, if he gets his appeal...he's free...

But you didn't answer my question...
Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|7127|Broadlands, VA
So, instead of making this abstract, lets make it concrete.  We need to rewite history a tad.....

10 victims into the shooting spree, the VA Tech killer gets tackled and subdued.  There are 20+ witnesses left & his prints are all over the murder weapons.  No chance that he's guilty.  He's already delivered the media kit where confesses.

Life in prison, or lethal injection?
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Pug wrote:


Your argument is that the punishment is unjust, which is a separate issue than a flawed legal system.  The punishment has nothing to do with the other.

And if you want to continue on that path - what's more cruel to an wrongly convicted person - life imprisonment versus death?  I think incarceration for life is essentially torture.  Imagine if it was life imprisonment for an innocent.
If you send a guy to jail for life, you'd be able to set him free if you'd discover he was innocent.  The punishment has to do with the system's flaws.  You can't bring an innocent guy back to life.
It takes 20 years to kill someone on average...

So basically after 20 years, how much new evidence is going to be brought to the table?  In other words, if he gets his appeal...he's free...

But you didn't answer my question...
Life imprisonment.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6853|North Carolina

DesertFox- wrote:

Breakdown of Feelings towards Capital Punishment

1. Death Penalty Deters Murder
Side one of asomewhat polarized debate on the death penalty. This view cites studies that enforcing the death penalty decreases murder and when it is not enforced, the contrary occurs. This view suggests that there is a significant deterrent effect on would-be murderers. It argues that because what some might call state sanctioned murder is justified by the crimes that warrant a death sentence.
The death penalty isn't really a deterrent of violent crime, but it certainly would deter white collar crime if it could be applied there.  We should hang Jeff Skilling.

DesertFox- wrote:

2. Death Penalty Causes Murder
This suggests that criminals become very violent since they are aware that their actions will end them either dead from a pursuit or execution, leaving them with nothing to lose. The law of capital punishment makes it seem that it is okay to kill another human and makes the state seem guilty of this crime, arguing that the government has no authority to deprive even a criminal of life. Also, you get the phenomenon of the state performed suicides that people who describe themselves as "tired of living" who commit a major crime to get executed.
Interesting argument, but honestly, I just think we need the death penalty for the sake of families of victims.  Sometimes executing a criminal is the only way you can bring closure to how a victim's family feels after a heinous crime.

DesertFox- wrote:

3. More Executions = More Deterrence
Here's what may be seen as the most barbaric ideology towards punishment. This is designed to put such a fear of death into would-be criminals so that crime will decrease. Here it can be argued that the value of a deterrant is lost because it is not employed on a frequent enough basis. However, it could be seen that this has some of the same problems as the first belief.
Weakest argument in favor of death penalty for violent crime.  Strongest argument for death penalty applied to white collar crime.  Few people would embezzle if they knew death was a possible punishment.

DesertFox- wrote:

4. Deterrence Cannot Justify Killing
What may be seen as a more gentle approach, here we explore that no matter how large of a deterring effect that a gruesome execution may produce, it cannot possibly justify the taking of ones life. The government is playing God and deciding what humans cannot be allowed to do. Long term imprisonment is enough punishment and deterrant to criminals since many murders are unplanned anyway.
Being an atheist, I have a sadistic view on this one...  If there is a God, why not send criminals to him?  If some deity is the ultimate judge in the hereafter, we're not playing God, we're playing God's bus driver.

DesertFox- wrote:

Onto the criminal justice system as well, no matter how much politicians and officials say they're focusing on "rehabilitation" in prisons, punishment is a factor as well. The criminal justice system was historically designed to get revenge for those who have been wronged and that is still apparent. This may account for the failures of career criminals to rejoin society no matter how much time is spent in an institution. Is it even right for people to be locked up their whole lives for something done at a young age? Are some people beyond repair, so to speak? How can it be improved?
All important ideas I hoped could get us off of the usual course in this subforum. I'm not forcing you to pick anything in the post to reply to either, discuss the morality of the death penalty, your strategy for prisons, whatever; have at it.
Rehabilitation is very important and needs to be addressed more seriously by society.  For one thing, we should make it easier for felons to find work.  That way, they will be less likely to return to crime once they leave prison.

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