Well, for one it keeps the hate level ramped up. It gives the pro-war people one more bit of ammunition to use against anyone suggesting we shouldn't be there fighting these "savages". It deflects from the US use of torture and physical duress "See, they're way worse than we are, we only waterboard people".rdx-fx wrote:
Yes, I'm overstating/side-tracking..
It's not outside the US intelligence community's ability to manufacture something like this.
BUT - why make up something like this, and risk exposure of the fabrication?
We're dealing with the same people that behead journalists for fun, blow up civilian targets on purpose, declare genocidal intent towards Israel, refuse to fight in uniform so they can hide behind civilians, etc..
.. and a torture manual is a US fabrication to make them look bad?!
I admit to being very suspicious at the history of "Al Qaeda safehouse" discoveries like the whole "Al Qaeda wants you to vote Democrat!" thing. Sometimes I don't think the fuckers in US intelligence could tell the truth if it was the cure for syphillis and they had a dose.rdx-fx wrote:
As long as you look at the facts available more than your own preconceptions/expectations.
One's predispositions and prejudices show alot with their first reaction to something like this.
I've done the same thing recently ( http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=74302 ).
All other things being equal, it's usually the smaller 'circle of conspiracy' that's true;
One psycho soldier, or a psyops campaign? probably one soldier went psycho.
US intelligence community develops a fake torture manual to make AQI look bad -or- some idiot jihadi takes out his crayons to draw a torture manual, and it gets passed around by other fanatics? I'm guessing it was the later.
Besides, if you were making a torture manual - go get the coursework from SERE school on 'what to expect from non Geneva Convention enemies'. Or, hell, if you don't want to bother with the english-arabic translation, ask some former 'guests' of Saddam's prisons (or, better yet, hire some of the old out-of-work Iraqi 'interrogators' to write you a manual).
Who supports them? There's plenty of outrage too: check the most recent thread on that deadTrollmeaT wrote:
I wonder if farting in the elevator is one of the tortures, hows that for imagination.
http://www.farts.com/cards/fart5.gif
I love how were supposed to be more sensitive, but when they do it the outrage just isn't there.
The morons that support them should go live with them or convert.
Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.rdx-fx wrote:
There is a balance between inflicting fear, and pushing the subject past the point of "it can't get worse, let them do what they want". Human imagination is worse than physical reality. The point of such an interrogation is to get the point across that "This is bad. Tell us what you know, or.. well.. you can imagine how much worse it'll get".
Threatening someone with a bullet to the head isn't too effective against many. It's the 'heroic' way out, and painless.
Threatening someone with gross disfigurement (120 volts to the nuts, bamboo under the fingernails, anal violation with a cheese grater, acid to the face, firehose to the mouth so their stomach explodes...) - the fear of pain AND the revulsion = subect becomes alot more willing to talk.
That being said,
Physical torture is the interrogation technique of amateurs and sadists.
Psychology and deception are the tools of a professional.
People will say anything to get out of physical pain (ref. the 'confessions' extracted by the Catholic Inquisition during the Dark Ages). BUT.. if you convince them that they want to tell you their story, you're more likely to get the full story.
Yeah, like in Guantanamo Bay: "Where is Bin Laden?" - "We know you have an affiliation with Bin Laden, tell us where he's hiding."Varegg wrote:
Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.
The big difference between western intelligence and the torture for information by the middle eastern counterparts is:
*We torture to get credible information.
*They torture prisoners to get them to say what they want them to say, not necessary the truth and on camera.
Didn`t know you work on Gitmo ???konfusion wrote:
Yeah, like in Guantanamo Bay: "Where is Bin Laden?" - "We know you have an affiliation with Bin Laden, tell us where he's hiding."Varegg wrote:
Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.
The big difference between western intelligence and the torture for information by the middle eastern counterparts is:
*We torture to get credible information.
*They torture prisoners to get them to say what they want them to say, not necessary the truth and on camera.
US Torturers keep repeating the phrase they want to hear out of so called "terrorists", until they can get enough on them to legitimately keep them imprisoned.
Guantanamo Bay = The USA's personal version of the ME.
-konfusion
No, there wouldn't be. Because they are worse than us, don't people realise this. Of course you're probably thinking "if they do it why can't we" - well then you're not better than them. Infact you're worse than them because you're educated and you still want to do it. Fuck sake.Lotta_Drool wrote:
I bet there is nothing in it about sleep deparvation or humiliation by stacking nude men or dogs barking.
Î don't. I watch the news.Varegg wrote:
Didn`t know you work on Gitmo ???konfusion wrote:
Yeah, like in Guantanamo Bay: "Where is Bin Laden?" - "We know you have an affiliation with Bin Laden, tell us where he's hiding."Varegg wrote:
Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.
The big difference between western intelligence and the torture for information by the middle eastern counterparts is:
*We torture to get credible information.
*They torture prisoners to get them to say what they want them to say, not necessary the truth and on camera.
US Torturers keep repeating the phrase they want to hear out of so called "terrorists", until they can get enough on them to legitimately keep them imprisoned.
Guantanamo Bay = The USA's personal version of the ME.
-konfusion
Intelligence information is 100% fool proof and is always gathered using torture.IG-Calibre wrote:
Wonder how much torture it took to get "credible information" like this?
Actually, Islam has exceptions to rules for necessary services (i.e. doctors can miss prayer if they're saving a life at the time, etc.).CameronPoe wrote:
Bad muslims can.Lotta_Drool wrote:
So no Muslim can go to medical school.CameronPoe wrote:
I don't doubt they do that kind of shit but I will point out the following:
a) Why the fuck would you need a manual to torture someone? Use your fucking imagination!
b) Muslims aren't supposed to depict the human form in art according to the Q'uran so these guys must be 'real bad' (lol) muslims or the pictures have been fabricated by the DoD.
c) Fox and the US DoD seem to be getting more pathetic by the minute.
d) I like the assortment of crayons used.
A secret exit. Because, you wouldn't want to use your main entrance in case it was being watched. I mean, secret bases are constantly under surveillance. That's why they're called secret.IG-Calibre wrote:
Wonder how much torture it took to get "credible information" like this?
No Varegg the point i'm making is, the delusion that it's ok for the Western World to torture because it reveals "credible information" is a massive pile of steaming horse shit, all torture does is coerce the person into saying or agreeing to whatever bullshit they think will stop them being tortured, it has zero credibility.Varegg wrote:
Intelligence information is 100% fool proof and is always gathered using torture.IG-Calibre wrote:
Wonder how much torture it took to get "credible information" like this?
^^ Is that really what most of you believe ?
"representing the complete human form is frowned upon for it may lead to man becoming idolised and his evanescence being forgotten" - An Irano-Islamic Perspective - Amir H ZekrgooPubic wrote:
Not every picture is art. Remember, education is a Muslim's duty, and pictures can sometimes be educational tools.
I mean that you should follow your own "American way" which includes laws like "innocent until proven guilty".rdx-fx wrote:
Oh! you mean the place where we have to serve them the Muslim equivalent of 'kosher' meals - lest we offend their sensitive pallete?
Or, is this the place where we hand them complimentary Korans, promise never to look at said Koran sideways - lest we hurt their feelings?
Or, is this the place where we let questionable priests minister to their spiritual needs
"personal version of the Middle East"..
Right..
Because we have sooo many videos of 'Redneck Death Squads' rounding up and beheading Al Jazeera journalists, for the primetime loop on CNN.
Part of the problem in the Middle East is precisely that they do not fear being captured by us.
Did Bin Laden ram some airliners into the Kremlin during the USSR/Afghanistan war?
no... They knew damn good and well that such an action would not advance their cause - it would just piss off the Politburo enough to just level their damn country.
We are trying to fight a civilized, uniform-wearing war against an uncivilized, non-uniformed enemy..on their home ground.
I believe the British bitched about the same thing a couple hundred years ago..who was it they were fighting then?
(Major differences there, but similar in the small spectrum I mentioned above).
Then it can`t have been directed at me cause i never stated torture was okay by any group or for whatever cause ......IG-Calibre wrote:
No Varegg the point i'm making is, the delusion that it's ok for the Western World to torture because it reveals "credible information" is a massive pile of steaming horse shit, all torture does is coerce the person into saying or agreeing to whatever bullshit they think will stop them being tortured, it has zero credibility.Varegg wrote:
Intelligence information is 100% fool proof and is always gathered using torture.IG-Calibre wrote:
Wonder how much torture it took to get "credible information" like this?
^^ Is that really what most of you believe ?
Which is one person's opinion. Besides which, cutting people up is frowned upon, but we make an exception for doctors.crashmctavish wrote:
"representing the complete human form is frowned upon for it may lead to man becoming idolised and his evanescence being forgotten" - An Irano-Islamic Perspective - Amir H ZekrgooPubic wrote:
Not every picture is art. Remember, education is a Muslim's duty, and pictures can sometimes be educational tools.
And I remember Reading this...
clicky
Last edited by Bubbalo (2007-05-25 03:34:57)
Yeah and my answer is that achieving that Goal i.e. "credible evidence" via the means of torture is bullshit, and have outlined why. In a way you are saying that torture is ok, that somehow the ends justifies the means, that torturing for "credible information" is somehow more palatable and acceptable. Well it's not, yet the US administration wants us to believe it is, but, that ain't happening i'm afraid.Varegg wrote:
Then it can`t have been directed at me cause i never stated torture was okay by any group or for whatever cause ......IG-Calibre wrote:
No Varegg the point i'm making is, the delusion that it's ok for the Western World to torture because it reveals "credible information" is a massive pile of steaming horse shit, all torture does is coerce the person into saying or agreeing to whatever bullshit they think will stop them being tortured, it has zero credibility.Varegg wrote:
Intelligence information is 100% fool proof and is always gathered using torture.
^^ Is that really what most of you believe ?
What i stated was a mere difference in what goal we and them have when using torture as a mean of gathering information.
That's actually one of my favourite videos on the internet. It's like a James Bond movie!Bubbalo wrote:
A secret exit. Because, you wouldn't want to use your main entrance in case it was being watched. I mean, secret bases are constantly under surveillance. That's why they're called secret.IG-Calibre wrote:
Wonder how much torture it took to get "credible information" like this?
