BF2S Forums They Will always exist and will never cease to be

Surely, we can apply blanket statements to all people living in the slums.

Some are disabled, unable to work and living off government (VBA / Disability) aid.

Some are mentally unstable, whether developmentally disabled or 'insane'.

Some are immigrants working low-end jobs, sending money back to their family.

Some are immigrants who have just arrived with little to no money to live elsewhere.

Some are students, working and going to school (I was one of those in LA).

Some are people who have just joined the workforce (new Adults).

Some are lazy people, not seeking to better themselves or their economic/social situation.

Some are trying to better themselves, but cannot afford to pay to live 'nicer' areas.


I think you need to sit down and think before coming up with these polls instead of just making them to try to prove someone wrong.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-25 12:29:26)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

some people who inhabit the mansions and high priced residential zones could also be considered leeches

ain't that they fucking truth, they use there influence and political pull to force ppl to sell there land to corporations to turn into a million dollar a lot subdivison

The slums are in a state of catch22. They are stuck. They need bring in more taxes so they can improve schools and attract businesses. however to bring in more taxes they need people to get better jobs, which is done by improving education and bringing in businesses. The only way to help them is to give them tons of money to improve their schools and police, however no one wants to give them money. So it is really not anyone in particular's fault that they suck so much.

Null vote...  this is far too broad of a generalization for a sensible debate.  Some people end up poor and in the ghetto due to circumstances rather than bad choices.

Varegg wrote:

Funny how all these threads pops up like fungus when it`s HOF time

Ooooooh, good point!

oh ok sorry, I was aghast at the comment as it read because young men are usually so idealistic and altruistic to a fault.

I did cut and paste your quote sans your tag. I left in the 99%. It seemed to convey your feelings. My point was rather to clarify peoples leanings on the subject in a separate post designed for that rather than constantly side track an existing one. If you felt personally threatened or attacked I know not why. I just ask people to "  Please weigh in on this and your personal experiences on the subject. Who is responsible for their plight ?"

JahManRed wrote:

Considering that this is about the forth thread you have created on slums and the struggling classes, I would hazard a guess that you have never had to struggle in life or claw your way up the ladder. Or you wouldn't generalize so.

Three words:
Silver, spoon, mouth.

Sorry. I was quoting a statement that " I too " found stunning and wanted to see if anyone else felt that way.

1978 Bronx 233rd street & Jersey City, Irving and JFK Blvd. , I lived in Harlem too but only after is became nice again.    Ps in 1978 you didn’t bother to call the cops, they weren’t gonna come anyway !

Three more words. a mineral, a utensil and an orifice . you can pick em !

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Some are students, working and going to school (I was one of those in LA).

Some are people who have just joined the workforce (new Adults). Some are trying to better themselves, but cannot afford to pay to live 'nicer' areas..

I have been there...

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I think you needs to  sit down and think before coming up with these statements instead of just making them to try to prove someone wrong.

“ Proving someone wrong “ is the very fundamental nature of debate is it not ?

Maybe someone else needs to " sit down and think before coming up with these statements instead of just making them to try to prove someone wrong. "

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm drunk right now but this will be addressed tomorrow. Any intelligent, discerning chap will be able to see through your misinterpretation of what I said.

CameronPoe wrote:

I am now sober again, although I feel like shit, so it's time to respond to this ludicrous OP.

PEOPLE WHO INHABIT SLUMS ARE NOT LEECHES.

I never ever said anything about people inhabiting slums automatically being leeches. I said that there will always be a miniscule percentage of people (<1% I'd say) in any society who will be lazy, will leech off social benefits and who will not seek to better themselves. It is no surprise that you will mostly find these people in slums or trailer parks but the vast majority of people living in slum areas will seek to seek to better themselves, to get out of their situation and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Being in a slum does not make you a leech - many people are simply prisoners of misfortune, circumstance, injustice or the grand scheme of things.

H/J just has difficulty reading sentences written in the English language.

These two posts show exactly why you are a HOFer, what dedication and follow through.

btw: you should change the <1% to >5% but <17% due to France, America, Canada, Russia, and China.

Hunter,

pls edit your post.  Something that long has a one insult requirement, I read all the way through it, got to the end and felt jipped when I saw no insult.

Damn you.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

The Slums of NYC are rapidly disappearing and can no longer be found anywhere in Manhattan.

CameronPoe wrote:

New York != Manhattan. The New York metropolitan urban area is one of the most massive in the entire world, extending half way along Long Island and into neighbouring New Jersey..

Here we go again … (I said see above to verify)

”The Slums of NYC are rapidly disappearing and can no longer be found anywhere in Manhattan”
New York does not = Manhattan. Nor does New York City = Manhattan. My point ( and I believe it was clear ) was that Manhattan Island has totally cleaned up. I hear and understand your Point about the “ Megalopolis effect Morphing the area into one huge city that will eventually reach up to New haven Connecticut ( god forbid )  but that isn’t the case now nor is it the issue being discussed is it ?

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Wait are you saying “a successful capitalist society needs the poor to function“? I highly doubt it. I think you may want to reword this, otherwise… Two very bold statements. I firmly believe both are wrong. This sounds like a future poll to me.

CameronPoe wrote:

The polls have worked against you. Most agreed with me. So unless you're a 'everyone else is crazy except for me' then, on balance you're wrong and I'm right.

Truly they have, That’s why I made them, to Poll opinion in this Forum. It seemed like an odd point of view. I am certain you wont have it for the rest of your life but only time will tell.

“ The Poll results ? “ I don’t believe its proof of right or wrong.

EI. There is a post on right now were it seems everyone but me is encouraging a young man to construct a car bomb to exact revenge for a traffic accident. See Debate and Serious Talk » Should we seek revenge?

CameronPoe wrote:

My Grandad's Grandad lived under a brutal British military occupation that decreed Catholics were second class citizens. We had to live in a patched up damp, dark and unhealthy house (I'll post a pic next time I'm home) for the first seven years of my life while my Dad, who the bank would not dream of giving a mortgage to, had to work on building sites during the day when he could get the work and then work on the new house he was building for us when he came back home in the evening. If he had sat on his tod and spent his dole money on booze and cigarettes our lives would have been miserable and I probably would never have been able to go to University, despite the 'wonderful life' you seem to imply social benefits afford people. Social benefits are not meant to give people luxury - just keep their heads above water..

Actually this is Excactlly what I said Yes we have big slums and seem to want to create and promote more“  “the Areas that Remain slums only do so because they have Public Housing tracts“,  “The Projects” in them. This is what fosters and maintains the  subsistence level dependency cycle. In my opinion. we are not “ Helping people there “ In  fact, it is my opinion that Politicians already know this well, but are equally aware that making more people become dependent on them will increase their power base.

safe to say we agree ?

CameronPoe wrote:

Wow. Where do I sign for a dingy little apartment in the projects? lol.

Again, The Projects fail to achieve the intended results created in the naivety of the 60s
But its not because their “  dingy little apartments “. The ones I have been in, Chelsea, Hudson, Fredrick Douglas ( and Some place in Queens were I dated a women )  in my opinion they were big, airy, well lit, lotsa sun,  two bedroom affairs aprox. 1100sq/ft. Pretty big by NYC standards. A new construction 1 bedroom is usually 6 to 750 sq/ft by comparison.

CameronPoe wrote:

How good can their lives be if they don't garner enough money for the basics in life, given that Manhattan is one of the most expensive places on earth? Guess you didn't consider that point. Give me square meals, a nice car and nights on the booze over basketball courts and arts theatres anyday..

actually Perhaps what you don’t appreciate is that HOUSING is the biggest expense in NYC The real-estate market driving it is still thriving as is  Our economy despite what you hear. But “ Bias media yes or no ? “ is another post.. lets not go there .

All else, NYC prices tend to be higher but not by much. The free market creates supply to meet demand. Prices really vary from say

West 36 street and 7th Ave. in the fashion district were a large work force exists and many establishment cater and exploit to the lunch crowd with high prices to

West 89th street  and Amsterdam were little cheap Bodegas popped up to cater to the Cuban population that mostly in habit the Projects between 89th and 87th ( also really nice and right inside a wealthy neighborhood ) Establishments have popped up to service both income levels. Coffee 4 bucks or Coffee 50 cents. Apples 1.40 a piece or  5 for 4 dollars. One place is a lot more posh of course.

CameronPoe wrote:

Have you seen the kind of housing they receive? They're the most dead end depressing cesspits you can lay your eyes on. .

Keep in mind its still in NYC yes I have seen it, Its fine. They destroy it. I also offerd to send you pictures I took of the Chelsea Project 48hrs ago ! Your attitude was You knew all about it from a "Visit "

CameronPoe wrote:

'They destroy it' = deadend cesspits. Thanks for agreeing. You can't vouch for having deadbeat neighbours trashing a place..

I will agree” again that the System is a Failure. Its difficult to make people proud, cherish and  care about something they didn’t earn. Its beautiful. ( balconies )Yet there is a ( Door Shop ) 7 men who have a full time job Replacing Doors and Door Jambs. Why I asked them ? I cant recall breaking a door in my life? “ I don’t know? “ they replied, “ but we replace 3 or four a week “

CameronPoe wrote:

If I was stuck in that I'd be damn sure to try my hardest to get myself out of there and find somewhere better. .

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

You might. But what if your family had lived there for generations and you were raised to think it was your entitlement, that some one owed you.?

CameronPoe wrote:

We are now into the realms of that <1% deadbeat leech population we spoke of. Those types are a minority and will never cease to be.

O I C !

CameronPoe wrote:

The minority of leeches you speak of are a minority that will always exist and will never cease to be. .

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

I never called them leaches, you did.

CameronPoe wrote:

You implied they were leeches. Leeches suck on the blood of large mammals, parasites if you will..

No actually I stated clearly that the government keeps them in a perpetual state of dependency. I think it might be done purposely as I mention. Its been going on to long for everyone involved not to see it is not working as a helping hand  Lifting people out but rather it seems to breed and create more dependency .

CameronPoe wrote:

They really are the dregs of society. 99% of humans will seek to better themselves..

I never called them the dregs of society, you did. These last two comments put you on very thin ice.

CameronPoe wrote:

Thin ice? With who? Wtf? I called the deadbeat 1% dregs because that's exactly what they fucking are. Anti-social types, dealers, alcoholics, junkies, etc. I make no excuses for referring to these as dregs.

Thin ice with other Liberals and socialists I would think. That was my meaning.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

You need to do some reading  to see my opinion is that “ The Projects are a Costly, Well put together, Idealistic, Well meaning, failure that only acts to make people dependent on the Government and this does not make for a healthy atmosphere.  I don’t feel its “ Their Fault “ I feel it’s a failed concept and all the money thrown at it is wasted. Its time to admit it and come up with something new and effective and  admit that we are not “ Helping people there “ In  fact, it is my opinion that Politicians already know this well, but are equally aware that making more people become dependent on them will increase their power base.

Not good news,  just the way I see it 1st hand.
Clear ? and not one insult...

CameronPoe wrote:

There is always room for improvement in any government initiative. .

I my opinion It Flat out doesn’t work at all and an entirely new fresh approach is needed.

CameronPoe wrote:

This works in some countries and doesn't in others. The particular brand of capitalism adopted by America does little to address the poverty gap between rich and poor, it doesn't exactly offer as much opportunity to step out of the shitfest as socialist countries does. .

In my opinion its possible for anyone to achieve here with hard work alone. Attitude, discipline, persistence and ingenuity all help but are not required in my expirence.   

CameronPoe wrote:

The upside for America is that it is more competitive economically and richer as a result overall but poorer socially and in terms of equality. In Ireland we have free healthcare, third level education and all manner of breaks that make it almost impossible for people on benefits to make excuses for not bettering themselves..

The only thing we can not guaranty is “ Equality of out come “. Everything else is achievable and within anyone’s means. People come here from around the world to exploit our healthcare system. Is this the case in Ireland.

CameronPoe wrote:

Would you prefer these people be dumped out on the streets?.

Did I say that? That is a real leap.

CameronPoe wrote:

Cheers for the absence of insults for a change.

?????????????? When last I remarked on the topic your response was

CameronPoe wrote:

I enjoy annoying people by acting arrogant and condescending - get over it.

Lets just keep it this way please. It promotes the flow does it not.

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-05-26 12:58:56)

CameronPoe wrote:

The core issue we were originally dealing with was urban living versus rural living. ?

Wrong, the issue was.

CameronPoe wrote:

to suggest that the US is an inherently anti-democrat country is just blatantly incorrect.

Hunter/jumper wrote:

Who said " the US is an inherently anti-democrat country "I said " our country dislikes the democrats more than Bush "Congress’s approval rating is lower than Bush's.new poll out, I'll try and find a link.The local elections and non- Presidential year elections don’t get allot of interest, sadly. not many people bother to vote. The Presidential elections show more of the nations mood. Considering the hostility of the media to conservatives in the USA they still do well nation wide. In non presidential years turn out is usually pretty low and not indicative of our nation as a whole. The party not in the White House, usually picks up a few seats. Its not like democrats have a mandate like the 1994 election. The democrat’s have a narrow majority and even those seats were won in very close elections. As another example, The NRA is a heavy supporter of Conservatives ( usually ). They number in the millions but they are spread out across the country. They can swing nationwide Elections ( Bush I ) but state by state they don’t have much clout.So they don’t wield they kind of power that a smaller group ( like some ethnicity ) that inhabits one area densely can.

CameronPoe wrote:

My view is that you were avoiding the issue by selectively using Manhattan, which on a by area basis is only a fraction of New York City, as an example of a 'city without a slum'. ?

I didn’t  say that at all. NYC has five boroughs, Manhattan is one I was saying.  1 borough is now slum free. And that’s pretty impressive being it had the worst slum. See quote below. I cut and pasted this quote quite a number of times now.

The Slums of NYC are rapidly disappearing and can no longer be found anywhere in Manhattan.

CameronPoe wrote:

Urban regeneration involves knocking slums and rebuilding them further out, they don't go away and are still part of the city.

They didn’t tear anything down. The original brownstones were and still are beautiful. People don’t defecate in street now. It isn’t allowed any more. Neither is selling drugs. The same people still live there and some children still try and stone the baby ducks in the park but now police stop them.

Same people, plus New people, Slum gone. neat, clean, safe 24/7. It can be done. Nothing was Torn down and No one was displaced. All the burned out and gutted buildings have been Re done and now they’re occupied.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

“ The Poll results ? “ I don’t believe its proof of right or wrong. There is a poll on right now were it seems everyone but me is encouraging a young man to construct a car bomb to exact revenge for a traffic accident.

See Debate and Serious Talk » Should we seek revenge?

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm not saying the results of some internet forum poll dictates what is right and what is wrong but it surely gives you an indication of general sentiment.

Sentiment is Emotion, Feeling, Reaction, etc..  I meant “Right” as in accurate, truthful, correct, etc.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Actually this is Excactlly what I said Yes we have big slums and seem to want to create and promote more“  “the Areas that Remain slums only do so because they have Public Housing tracts“,  “The Projects” in them. This is what fosters and maintains the  subsistence level dependency cycle. In my opinion. we are not “ Helping people there “ In  fact, it is my opinion that Politicians already know this well, but are equally aware that making more people become dependent on them will increase their power base.

safe to say we agree ?

CameronPoe wrote:

Going back to the fact that capitalistic society involves a wide range of people with varying levels of income and varying skill sets public housing is necessary.

“Varying skill sets and income levels “ does not necessitate the need for Public housing in my opinion. This sounds like another post/poll.  I will not bleed into another topic here.

CameronPoe wrote:

Otherwise where are all the toilet cleaners, till attendants and refuse collectors going to live? On the street? They can't afford to buy homes. They can't afford to rent homes in say Manhattan, for instance. Where are they gonna go?

Poughkeepsie and Highland New York.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Again, The Projects fail to achieve the intended results created in the naivety of the 60s But its not because their “  dingy little apartments “. The ones I have been in, Chelsea, Hudson, Fredrick Douglas ( and Some place in Queens were I dated a women )  in my opinion they were big, airy, well lit, lotsa sun,  two bedroom affairs aprox. 1100sq/ft. Pretty big by NYC standards. A new construction 1 bedroom is usually 6 to 750 sq/ft by comparison.

CameronPoe wrote:

That does not sound typical to me looking at similar ones in Dublin or in any of the other countries I've visited and if it is the case then that is the fault of NYC council/corporation: they need to revise their plans/strategy on public housing.

Thank you oh so very much !

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

actually Perhaps what you don’t appreciate is that HOUSING is the biggest expense in NYC The real-estate market driving it is still thriving as is  Our economy despite what you hear. But “ Bias media yes or no ? “ is another post.. lets not go there .

All else, NYC prices tend to be higher but not by much. The free market creates supply to meet demand. Prices really vary from say

West 36 street and 7th Ave. in the fashion district were a large work force exists and many establishment cater and exploit to the lunch crowd with high prices to

West 89th street  and Amsterdam were little cheap Bodegas popped up to cater to the Cuban population that mostly in habit the Projects between 89th and 87th ( also really nice and right inside a wealthy neighborhood ) Establishments have popped up to service both income levels. Coffee 4 bucks or Coffee 50 cents. Apples 1.40 a piece or  5 for 4 dollars. One place is a lot more posh of course.

CameronPoe wrote:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/23/pf/expensive_cities/index.htm


New York City is the 10th most expensive city in the entire world to live in. Food costs more, services cost more, beer costs more, you name it: it costs more.

I prefer not to Google cut and past, I only relate what I experience and KNOW. I Own property in Brooklyn Manhattan and Highland New York ( 70 miles north of NYC and at best  1:20 by rail into NYC I do it 4 or 5 times a week now) I lived in NYC (Bronx & Manhattan) for  16 years, I didn’t want to raise my step children there. ( No tree forts, BB guns, Dogs, Bicycles, hikes, football, etc.  Plus now their girlfriends have names like Kateland, Elizabeth and Ashley. )
Hear me GOD. I am telling you Food Prices are not that much different, neither is anything else ( Except Gas, hardware & lumber )
One big reason is because whatever they purchase for stock is gonna sell, and  fast in NYC. In some cases ( Art supplies, Phone Sex & Hookers ) prices are much cheaper in NYC.

CameronPoe wrote:

PS Whether a project is in a wealthy neighbourhood is irrelevant. Those inhabiting the project are still poor, the only difference being they have to look at rich people driving by the whole time.

WTF ? I was just sayin that even in a “ Good Area “ ( not all are in slums )  Projects fail. Sorry I brought it up.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

I will agree” again that the System is a Failure. Its difficult to make people proud, cherish and  care about something they didn’t earn. Its beautiful. ( balconies )Yet there is a ( Door Shop ) 7 men who have a full time job Replacing Doors and Door Jambs. Why I asked them ? I cant recall breaking a door in my life? “ I don’t know? “ they replied, “ but we replace 3 or four a week “

CameronPoe wrote:

Agreed. Why have pride in something that doesn't belong to you?

More than agreed. I cant prove it and I don’t really know why but I believe it goes even deeper  than this. I don’t put a lot of credence in psychological stuff but some thing much deeper seems to be at work here. I have no idea what it is.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

No actually I stated clearly that the government keeps them in a perpetual state of dependency. I think it might be done purposely as I mention. Its been going on to long for everyone involved not to see it is not working as a helping hand  Lifting people out but rather it seems to breed and create more dependency .

CameronPoe wrote:

Depends on how it's implemented of course. What doesn't work in the US can work elsewhere. The world is a very diverse place.

I know very little of the rest of the worlds Housing issues.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

I my opinion It Flat out doesn’t work at all and an entirely new fresh approach is needed.

CameronPoe wrote:

Whether they fail or not they are a necessity. Flooding the streets with people who have no address and hence cannot hold a job is BOUND to fail, that is blatantly obvious.

Who suggested this pray tell ?

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

In my opinion its possible for anyone to achieve here with hard work alone. Attitude, discipline, persistence and ingenuity all help but are not required in my expirence.

CameronPoe wrote:

Well that's not true when you don't have an address

In my experience it is still true.

CameronPoe wrote:

and it seems that those who are born into the most extreme poverty are the ones least likely to succeed

To me “ No Job, No money “ To “ Shit Job, shit Money “ is success. It’s a small step. And ts all small steps. And  Anyone can take One more step.

CameronPoe wrote:

given that they have so many obstacles in their way and everyone else who may have handed-down wealth, etc.

Everyone has obstacles in their way. Someone is bound to have “the Most“. More than likely it will be the least affluent. I hope your not implying that wealthy people serve as an impediment to the poor in the USA ? I will as does everyone else, push for “ Equality of Opportunity “ You can not and should not try to Legislate “ Equality of out come “  Im sure this is not your meaning. 

CameronPoe wrote:

A person born into a wealthy family can be lazier than any bum in a project and contribute nothing to society other than the tax they pay on purchasing fast cars and fancy yachts.

I don’t care if Rich contribute to society, it’s a free country. I wish I was richer. ( House in Aspen Rich ) I have no class envy Even when I was poor.

CameronPoe wrote:

Hardly the perfect economic system free market capitalism is meant to be

“Fast cars & Yachts etc.”  require sales service etc. of people with “ lower skill sets “.

“Trickle down Economics” at work.

“ Class envy Economics” at work. See below.

In the 1980s, The Democratic Controlled Congress came up with a good Idea. “ Every one hates rich people, Only rich people have Yachts ! We will Tax the shit out of Yacht companies, Fuck over the rich and look like Really caring People to our constituents. The Result? The American yacht Industry was Crippled. Rich people bought their yachts From European Countries. People with ” Lower skill sets “ who worked for American yacht companies were fucked. The Rich didn’t really notice.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

People come here from around the world to exploit our healthcare system. Is this the case in Ireland.

CameronPoe wrote:

How do they exploit it? I thought you guys had to pay even for the ambulance that comes to take you to the hospital

Get Diagnosed in Jerkostan with (Severe AteryPluggedomonia ). Come to America, Call 911, Get taken to Hospital. Say “ I think its my Arteries ! Get operation ( at the worlds best facilities ?) , go home. Never pay. According to My GF who Runs XxXxxxx Hospital Cardio Unit.  If she comes home in time from work I will have her be more specific.

CameronPoe wrote:

Would you prefer these people be dumped out on the streets?.

Did I say that? That is a real leap.

CameronPoe wrote:

Well you say 'The Projects' are a failure. What do you suggest be done instead?

That’s another post. I will make it soon. It will be from my first hand experience in Working hand in hand with the staff at Chelsea, The Hudson Guild, That place Between 89th and 87th on Amsterdam. And walking through the Lower east side and The Fredrick Douglas Projects. It will not make me popular with most posters here as it will be a radical departure from the system as it exists.

CameronPoe wrote:

I rarely insult anyone outright.

I must admit this seems to be the case.

CameronPoe wrote:

Being condescending is not in the same league as making insults like calling someone 'Sharkfinhead', etc., it's just a manner in which someone posts.

To me, being condescending is a form of insult in itself. Poll ? perhaps not.
To me “Sharkfinhead”  was just Funny., if in a playground sorta way. Which was always were the most fun was had. Now I ask you, Was being inebriated the other night more fun than being on the play ground when you were 7 or 8 years old?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2007-05-27 10:19:36)