These chains of response threads are lame.
Wait, so the US is capable of fighting an insurgency terroristish group without bombing the shit out of everything, but Israel isn't?Vilham wrote:
Bub lets face it. No one in Palestine would tell the Israelis where leaders of Hamas are. And if they did try to "ambush" them they would be spotted which would be immediately told to those leaders.Bubbalo wrote:
Unavoidable? Are you fucking kidding me? You honestly think that the Israeli army isn't capable of ambushing and arresting the leaders rather than throwing helicopter gunships are them?Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Israel is in a bind. They are left with the choice of not retaliating against the rocket attacks, endangering the lives of their own people, or they can retaliate knowing that Palestinian civilian death is unavoidable.
Stop living in your own little fantasy world.
jonsimon wrote:
Wait, so the US is capable of fighting an insurgency terroristish group without bombing the shit out of everything, but Israel isn't?
The situations are nowhere near the same. Iraq is not launching rockets into U.S. civilian neighborhoods. If they had been, things would be quite different. Also, there have even been many threads listing collateral damage figures that criticize the U.S. "bombing the shit out of everyone". Are you now, despite all your past criticisms, suggesting that they don't because it helps your argument? Okay, Mr. Kerry.
What is with you people and drawing vague comparisons to support a futile point? You can't honestly believe what you are saying.
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-27 09:53:23)
lol where did you get the idea the US were capable of dealing with terrorists? They are completely incapable of dealing with terrorists.jonsimon wrote:
Wait, so the US is capable of fighting an insurgency terroristish group without bombing the shit out of everything, but Israel isn't?Vilham wrote:
Bub lets face it. No one in Palestine would tell the Israelis where leaders of Hamas are. And if they did try to "ambush" them they would be spotted which would be immediately told to those leaders.Bubbalo wrote:
Unavoidable? Are you fucking kidding me? You honestly think that the Israeli army isn't capable of ambushing and arresting the leaders rather than throwing helicopter gunships are them?
Stop living in your own little fantasy world.
You all are a strange breed, Always crying about military being heavy handed and killing civilians. Its easy to play an online game and then sit back read the news and go "Oh, damn the US just killed 7 civilians in a fire fight in durka-durkaville. " Then hop on the internet and start a thread about it. Yet none of you have the balls to go to a recruiter and sign up to find out what war is really like. You wanna know what happens after you pull the trigger? Its easy During each fire fight, or exchange of gunfire its called the MAD MINUTE. And its just that, While you are seeking cover, aquiring targets, and getting a status on your troops, there is a lot of shit literally flying. The Mad minute Involves what I swear to god is like 20 minutes of hyper sensitive thoughts,vision, and actions. In that mad minute the main goal is to seek the target and over power it, as well as shout out the 3d's of contact (Distance,Direction,Description) So your brothers can get a feel for what the fuck just happend. Now take that EXTREMELY LOUD situation, and add casualties. Now add to it that its hot, you're wearing 90lbs of gear,
and the streets are suddenly empty. I'm sorry if there is contact being taken and you are a civilian GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE AREA! That mad minute anything that moves is a target. Adrenaline takes over clear thought is lost, it goes into a reaction, react to contact battle drill 2 Alpha. While all this is happening hopefully whatever the threat is has been engaged and killed. After a quick Blue Three Report, the troops get up, and try and secure teh area the target was engaged, Now days we do SSE, we lookm for the shooter's corpse and the weapon. BUT heres the fucked up part, The weapon is missing by the time you get to the spot the corpse is at.
There are brass casings all around the corpse, no weapon. Now comes the EX-Spray. Sure enough this guy just turned a cloth sprayed with can 1 blue.... He's the shooter, or he has shot a weapon within the last 24 hours (GSR does NOT wash off, It sticks to the skin for around 24 hours, scrub as much as you want you will still test positive for atleast 1 can of EX-Spray) Now who has the weapon? Its long gone in a house, someone picked it up to use at a later time, and guess what, now it looks like the US troops just lit up a city block and killed an innocent. Fuck you! I'm here, I see this shit every fucking day. Get off your fat asses and do something rather then read the news and whine and moan about the military online. Join it, and deploy and you will see what I'm talking about. (Anyone remeber the 6 year old boy that got shot 37 times by a 19 year old m240 machine gunner during the fall of baghdad? I do, what did the kid do that was wrong? He ran to a corpse and picked up an RPG. Thanks you are now the enemy, sleep well.)
I suggest you man up, and learn about what you so desperatly insist the military is doing wrong. You will learn your first week out in country. Appearences are decieving. That old man that just smiled and offered you some chi tea.... Yeah that guy just fucking killed your buddies last week with a command detonated IED.
and the streets are suddenly empty. I'm sorry if there is contact being taken and you are a civilian GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE AREA! That mad minute anything that moves is a target. Adrenaline takes over clear thought is lost, it goes into a reaction, react to contact battle drill 2 Alpha. While all this is happening hopefully whatever the threat is has been engaged and killed. After a quick Blue Three Report, the troops get up, and try and secure teh area the target was engaged, Now days we do SSE, we lookm for the shooter's corpse and the weapon. BUT heres the fucked up part, The weapon is missing by the time you get to the spot the corpse is at.
There are brass casings all around the corpse, no weapon. Now comes the EX-Spray. Sure enough this guy just turned a cloth sprayed with can 1 blue.... He's the shooter, or he has shot a weapon within the last 24 hours (GSR does NOT wash off, It sticks to the skin for around 24 hours, scrub as much as you want you will still test positive for atleast 1 can of EX-Spray) Now who has the weapon? Its long gone in a house, someone picked it up to use at a later time, and guess what, now it looks like the US troops just lit up a city block and killed an innocent. Fuck you! I'm here, I see this shit every fucking day. Get off your fat asses and do something rather then read the news and whine and moan about the military online. Join it, and deploy and you will see what I'm talking about. (Anyone remeber the 6 year old boy that got shot 37 times by a 19 year old m240 machine gunner during the fall of baghdad? I do, what did the kid do that was wrong? He ran to a corpse and picked up an RPG. Thanks you are now the enemy, sleep well.)
I suggest you man up, and learn about what you so desperatly insist the military is doing wrong. You will learn your first week out in country. Appearences are decieving. That old man that just smiled and offered you some chi tea.... Yeah that guy just fucking killed your buddies last week with a command detonated IED.
Last edited by CannonFodder11b (2007-05-27 10:08:46)
Good post, CannonFodder.
Thanks, I'm irritated by all this crap people are spewing thinking they are in the know , when litterally they live dull, uninteresting lives, and think because they scour the web and watch a little bit of news they are informed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Good post, CannonFodder.
Somethings you just have to live , to learn.
Can I play in your yard?CannonFodder11b wrote:
Thanks, I'm irritated by all this crap people are spewing thinking they are in the know , when litterally they live dull, uninteresting lives, and think because they scour the web and watch a little bit of news they are informed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Good post, CannonFodder.
Somethings you just have to live , to learn.
I've never accused the US of bombing civillians in Iraq. Try and find a quote.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
jonsimon wrote:
Wait, so the US is capable of fighting an insurgency terroristish group without bombing the shit out of everything, but Israel isn't?
The situations are nowhere near the same. Iraq is not launching rockets into U.S. civilian neighborhoods. If they had been, things would be quite different. Also, there have even been many threads listing collateral damage figures that criticize the U.S. "bombing the shit out of everyone". Are you now, despite all your past criticisms, suggesting that they don't because it helps your argument? Okay, Mr. Kerry.
What is with you people and drawing vague comparisons to support a futile point? You can't honestly believe what you are saying.
Through military means, true enough. However, Israel seems to share our ineptitude regardless of differences in approach.Vilham wrote:
lol where did you get the idea the US were capable of dealing with terrorists? They are completely incapable of dealing with terrorists.
Last edited by jonsimon (2007-05-27 10:58:56)
cannon, come home man, the Knights miss you
No but if your nice I will let you clean my boots, and weapon. Might even let you put some foot powder on my feet. GTFOsergeriver wrote:
Can I play in your yard?CannonFodder11b wrote:
Thanks, I'm irritated by all this crap people are spewing thinking they are in the know , when litterally they live dull, uninteresting lives, and think because they scour the web and watch a little bit of news they are informed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Good post, CannonFodder.
Somethings you just have to live , to learn.
jonsimon wrote:
I've never accused the US of bombing civillians in Iraq. Try and find a quote.
And no one said you did. What you have done in past threads is criticized collateral damage by U.S. forces in Iraq. Now it seems as if you're doing the opposite to support your "argument" against Israel.
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-27 12:28:10)
I'm not nice to pricks.CannonFodder11b wrote:
No but if your nice I will let you clean my boots, and weapon. Might even let you put some foot powder on my feet. GTFOsergeriver wrote:
Can I play in your yard?CannonFodder11b wrote:
Thanks, I'm irritated by all this crap people are spewing thinking they are in the know , when litterally they live dull, uninteresting lives, and think because they scour the web and watch a little bit of news they are informed.
Somethings you just have to live , to learn.
Why doesn't Israel send in troops? The same reason the US doesn't. We both decided, long ago, that it's better to expend THINGS instead of PEOPLE. Why endanger the lives of a 6 man snatch-n-grab squad if you can just shoot the car with a precision munition? Argue it however you want, the lives of a country's citizens are always going to be higher priority than the lives of those who are not.MrE`158 wrote:
*But*, if they're capable of identifying and locating specific individuals, why aren't they sending troopers in to capture him, or lead a conventional raid to take him out? A soldier with a rifle will cause a lot less collateral damage than a missile from a helicopter. Hellfire missiles are designed to be used against tanks, not civilian cars. If you know a guy you want is in a building, isolate the building, go in and get him, destroying the entire building (and damaging the surrounding neighbourhood) seems like excessive force. Yes, it's safer for Israeli soldiers, but, as has been mentioned, if you know that your attack is likely to cause significant civilian casualties in addition to achieving its mission goal, are you really any better than the terrorists you're targetting?
As that worked so well in Somalia. If we'd have just blown up the building that the leaders were meeting in, there would have been no US casualities, no book, no movie. But Herr Clinton, in his supreme wisdom, decided that the lives of those we captured were worth the lives of the soldiers he sent in. It's a mistake he never made again. Ask the Serbs.Bubbalo wrote:
Ah...........no, Israel has repeatedly launched attacks which they claim target leaders.
Even if you're right, they could just as easily drop in troops to respond.
place sounds the same as I left it.CannonFodder11b wrote:
You all are a strange breed, Always crying about military being heavy handed and killing civilians. Its easy to play an online game and then sit back read the news and go "Oh, damn the US just killed 7 civilians in a fire fight in durka-durkaville. " Then hop on the internet and start a thread about it. Yet none of you have the balls to go to a recruiter and sign up to find out what war is really like. You wanna know what happens after you pull the trigger? Its easy During each fire fight, or exchange of gunfire its called the MAD MINUTE. And its just that, While you are seeking cover, aquiring targets, and getting a status on your troops, there is a lot of shit literally flying. The Mad minute Involves what I swear to god is like 20 minutes of hyper sensitive thoughts,vision, and actions. In that mad minute the main goal is to seek the target and over power it, as well as shout out the 3d's of contact (Distance,Direction,Description) So your brothers can get a feel for what the fuck just happend. Now take that EXTREMELY LOUD situation, and add casualties. Now add to it that its hot, you're wearing 90lbs of gear,
and the streets are suddenly empty. I'm sorry if there is contact being taken and you are a civilian GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE AREA! That mad minute anything that moves is a target. Adrenaline takes over clear thought is lost, it goes into a reaction, react to contact battle drill 2 Alpha. While all this is happening hopefully whatever the threat is has been engaged and killed. After a quick Blue Three Report, the troops get up, and try and secure teh area the target was engaged, Now days we do SSE, we lookm for the shooter's corpse and the weapon. BUT heres the fucked up part, The weapon is missing by the time you get to the spot the corpse is at.
There are brass casings all around the corpse, no weapon. Now comes the EX-Spray. Sure enough this guy just turned a cloth sprayed with can 1 blue.... He's the shooter, or he has shot a weapon within the last 24 hours (GSR does NOT wash off, It sticks to the skin for around 24 hours, scrub as much as you want you will still test positive for atleast 1 can of EX-Spray) Now who has the weapon? Its long gone in a house, someone picked it up to use at a later time, and guess what, now it looks like the US troops just lit up a city block and killed an innocent. Fuck you! I'm here, I see this shit every fucking day. Get off your fat asses and do something rather then read the news and whine and moan about the military online. Join it, and deploy and you will see what I'm talking about. (Anyone remeber the 6 year old boy that got shot 37 times by a 19 year old m240 machine gunner during the fall of baghdad? I do, what did the kid do that was wrong? He ran to a corpse and picked up an RPG. Thanks you are now the enemy, sleep well.)
I suggest you man up, and learn about what you so desperatly insist the military is doing wrong. You will learn your first week out in country. Appearences are decieving. That old man that just smiled and offered you some chi tea.... Yeah that guy just fucking killed your buddies last week with a command detonated IED.
That old man is doing what it takes to get rid.CannonFodder11b wrote:
You all are a strange breed, Always crying about military being heavy handed and killing civilians. Its easy to play an online game and then sit back read the news and go "Oh, damn the US just killed 7 civilians in a fire fight in durka-durkaville. " Then hop on the internet and start a thread about it. Yet none of you have the balls to go to a recruiter and sign up to find out what war is really like. You wanna know what happens after you pull the trigger? Its easy During each fire fight, or exchange of gunfire its called the MAD MINUTE. And its just that, While you are seeking cover, aquiring targets, and getting a status on your troops, there is a lot of shit literally flying. The Mad minute Involves what I swear to god is like 20 minutes of hyper sensitive thoughts,vision, and actions. In that mad minute the main goal is to seek the target and over power it, as well as shout out the 3d's of contact (Distance,Direction,Description) So your brothers can get a feel for what the fuck just happend. Now take that EXTREMELY LOUD situation, and add casualties. Now add to it that its hot, you're wearing 90lbs of gear,
and the streets are suddenly empty. I'm sorry if there is contact being taken and you are a civilian GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE AREA! That mad minute anything that moves is a target. Adrenaline takes over clear thought is lost, it goes into a reaction, react to contact battle drill 2 Alpha. While all this is happening hopefully whatever the threat is has been engaged and killed. After a quick Blue Three Report, the troops get up, and try and secure teh area the target was engaged, Now days we do SSE, we lookm for the shooter's corpse and the weapon. BUT heres the fucked up part, The weapon is missing by the time you get to the spot the corpse is at.
There are brass casings all around the corpse, no weapon. Now comes the EX-Spray. Sure enough this guy just turned a cloth sprayed with can 1 blue.... He's the shooter, or he has shot a weapon within the last 24 hours (GSR does NOT wash off, It sticks to the skin for around 24 hours, scrub as much as you want you will still test positive for atleast 1 can of EX-Spray) Now who has the weapon? Its long gone in a house, someone picked it up to use at a later time, and guess what, now it looks like the US troops just lit up a city block and killed an innocent. Fuck you! I'm here, I see this shit every fucking day. Get off your fat asses and do something rather then read the news and whine and moan about the military online. Join it, and deploy and you will see what I'm talking about. (Anyone remeber the 6 year old boy that got shot 37 times by a 19 year old m240 machine gunner during the fall of baghdad? I do, what did the kid do that was wrong? He ran to a corpse and picked up an RPG. Thanks you are now the enemy, sleep well.)
I suggest you man up, and learn about what you so desperatly insist the military is doing wrong. You will learn your first week out in country. Appearences are decieving. That old man that just smiled and offered you some chi tea.... Yeah that guy just fucking killed your buddies last week with a command detonated IED.
I couldn't be arsed to read the rest.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Because by the time you get the soldiers in there, with an AFV to take the guy away in, and the support for them, he'll have gone.MrE`158 wrote:
*But*, if they're capable of identifying and locating specific individuals, why aren't they sending troopers in to capture him, or lead a conventional raid to take him out? A soldier with a rifle will cause a lot less collateral damage than a missile from a helicopter. Hellfire missiles are designed to be used against tanks, not civilian cars. If you know a guy you want is in a building, isolate the building, go in and get him, destroying the entire building (and damaging the surrounding neighbourhood) seems like excessive force. Yes, it's safer for Israeli soldiers, but, as has been mentioned, if you know that your attack is likely to cause significant civilian casualties in addition to achieving its mission goal, are you really any better than the terrorists you're targetting?Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Israel is in a bind. They are left with the choice of not retaliating against the rocket attacks, endangering the lives of their own people, or they can retaliate knowing that Palestinian civilian death is unavoidable.
And if he hasn't, you run the risk of his whole family being armed with AKs and RPGs, and opening up regardless of collateral damage to the neighbours, blaming the entire mess on you, killing the soldiers, and then blowing up the AFV with an IED just down the road.
Annihlating the fucker half an hour after spotting him with a laser-guided bomb only risks one man; the pilot of the plane doing the bombing. The only collateral would be other road users or anyone falling into the bomb crater at a later date. And it's a single smallish bomb, it's not like they're taking a run at him with cluster munitions, saturating the area with explosives and leaving mines all over the place for later.
Also, 'don't be a terrorist or you'll get blown up from the air at any moment' is a lot better message than 'don't be a terrorist or they'll raid you when they can get around to it and get driven back by your portable arsenal'.
Perhaps the unfortunate use of the euphemism 'collateral damage' is itself one aspect of why many disagree with the actions. The term itself is an excuse and an escape for the deaths of innocent civilians.
As for CannonFodder, there is certainly little I can protest against in your post. Other than the remark about "the balls to go to a recruiter and sign up to find out what war is really like", most can agree that too often it is not the soldier's fault. Of course, there have been incidents that have outraged many- Murder. Most soldiers we cannot blame, however, and I resist doing so. The blame should fall on those responsible for the warfare ongoing, and those who attempt to justify it despite the deaths. Those who see more Iraqis killed by American forces than Americans killed on September 11, 2001 as a necessary action in the war, and fail to see the consequences nor give appropriate apology.
The debate over Israel's actions is one of particular interest. Perhaps the Israelis see the deaths of innocent Palestinians as something better than risking the lives of their own soldiers. I would certainly prefer that the excessively destructive weapons used in assassinations not be used, lest they continue to kill innocents. However, to avoid the moral arguments of such actions, I would like to point out the consequences of the bombings: Those Palestinians affected will not see it as Israelis do. When one's building is bombed, or family is killed, they are not likely to think it over and find that it was what the Israelis had to do. No, they will be furious. To them, it is murder. To any of you, it would be murder if your family was killed as 'collateral damage'. Think of the Palestinian condition. They have little in terms of wealth and freedom. They are desperate, and now, because of the bomb, angry. What do you expect from these people, a justification of Israel? No, that it why they hate Israel. Simply as one cannot judge an American soldier from a computer, neither can you judge the Palestinian of such extreme circumstances. Skorpy-chan's message, "don't be a terrorist or you'll get blown up from the air at any moment", does not work. Such actions only angers the Palestinians.
The Muslim, particularly Palestinian, has little reason to devote their lives to violence if they lived in freedom and comfort, perhaps like the Turks. It is the poverty and violence that turns them to such actions.
As for CannonFodder, there is certainly little I can protest against in your post. Other than the remark about "the balls to go to a recruiter and sign up to find out what war is really like", most can agree that too often it is not the soldier's fault. Of course, there have been incidents that have outraged many- Murder. Most soldiers we cannot blame, however, and I resist doing so. The blame should fall on those responsible for the warfare ongoing, and those who attempt to justify it despite the deaths. Those who see more Iraqis killed by American forces than Americans killed on September 11, 2001 as a necessary action in the war, and fail to see the consequences nor give appropriate apology.
The debate over Israel's actions is one of particular interest. Perhaps the Israelis see the deaths of innocent Palestinians as something better than risking the lives of their own soldiers. I would certainly prefer that the excessively destructive weapons used in assassinations not be used, lest they continue to kill innocents. However, to avoid the moral arguments of such actions, I would like to point out the consequences of the bombings: Those Palestinians affected will not see it as Israelis do. When one's building is bombed, or family is killed, they are not likely to think it over and find that it was what the Israelis had to do. No, they will be furious. To them, it is murder. To any of you, it would be murder if your family was killed as 'collateral damage'. Think of the Palestinian condition. They have little in terms of wealth and freedom. They are desperate, and now, because of the bomb, angry. What do you expect from these people, a justification of Israel? No, that it why they hate Israel. Simply as one cannot judge an American soldier from a computer, neither can you judge the Palestinian of such extreme circumstances. Skorpy-chan's message, "don't be a terrorist or you'll get blown up from the air at any moment", does not work. Such actions only angers the Palestinians.
The Muslim, particularly Palestinian, has little reason to devote their lives to violence if they lived in freedom and comfort, perhaps like the Turks. It is the poverty and violence that turns them to such actions.
Drakef wrote:
The blame should fall on those responsible for the warfare ongoing, and those who attempt to justify it despite the deaths. Those who see more Iraqis killed by American forces than Americans killed on September 11, 2001 as a necessary action in the war, and fail to see the consequences nor give appropriate apology.
Poe has made some good points on this, but for the most part, I agree with your stance on this one.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
I am confused as to why some people here refuse to acknowledge the difference between collateral damage and intentionally targeting civilians. As much as it may help your argument, killing a bystander when bombing a military facility is not the same as intentionally blowing yourself up in a marketplace or launching a rocket targeting civilian homes.
I don't understand the reasoning in viewing things like this in black or white. If you're going around thinking that one party who killed civilians in a military strike on a military target is no different than one who intentionally seeks out civilian targets, you aren't seeing things as they really are. Just because both actions result in civilian death, it doesn't make them the same. Failure to make that distinction would be down right frightening for anyone with power.
I've seen entire debates drone on and on because of this. It's almost as if one side has no argument whatsoever, so they intentionally force a connection that doesn't exist. Arguing just for the sake of arguing comes off as bickering, not intelligent debate.
What are your thoughts on this?
It doesn't matter what you call it, or how much people debate it. If you're a corpse, dead is dead.
Somalia wasn't US jurisdiction. Palestine is Israeli jurisdiction.blisteringsilence wrote:
As that worked so well in Somalia. If we'd have just blown up the building that the leaders were meeting in, there would have been no US casualities, no book, no movie. But Herr Clinton, in his supreme wisdom, decided that the lives of those we captured were worth the lives of the soldiers he sent in. It's a mistake he never made again. Ask the Serbs.
Despite the fact that they consistently say the opposite? What is your evidence for this?CameronPoe wrote:
Of course you may not be specifically targetting civilians but you can carry something out in the knowledge that there is a high likelihood that civilians will be killed. As such, it is little better than actually targetting them but marginally better nonetheless.
Personally I think Israelis actually enjoy and take pride in the knowledge that civilians will be killed in the process thereby improving the demographics for their 'Greater Land of Israel'.
Because who ever hear of a country lieing?san4 wrote:
Despite the fact that they consistently say the opposite?
Huh? Seriously, you could apply that to anything and everything.Bubbalo wrote:
Because who ever hear of a country lieing?san4 wrote:
Despite the fact that they consistently say the opposite?
Typical Thread:
Some random user: "The Holocaust happened."
Bubbalo: "Because who ever hear of a country lieing?"
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-28 07:28:52)