While I'm supposing that most Muslims are moderate, your link (not you) implies that most Muslims are a bit radical.Kmarion wrote:
Serge I said the same thing "what if it's like this". And you were quick to warn me about generalizing. (See the following)sergeriver wrote:
How can a question be a generalization? I asked what if Islam is this. That's not generalizing, that's not labeling, that's making a supposition.Kmarion wrote:
Neither is throwing out a label everytime someone points out intolerance (Especially when he pre-empts it with what if). Isn't that generalizing also?sergeriver wrote:
You're right, that doesn't seem fair. But don't generalize, you are mixing some bureaucrats with the whole Muslim Community.Kmarion wrote:
What if it is like this?
Doesn't seem very tolerant to me... but hey, that's their business I guess.
http://i11.tinypic.com/5ybsaow.jpg
Awww, you should know by now that I'm careful with my words. I said it doesn't "seem" also. I'm not a sheepish as you may think brutha.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
You can't base your opinions on a whole group by the actions of a few. Sadly all we ever hear about is the bad, you never see news stories about the actions of the good and so we become bias based on what we see.
Last edited by Villain{NY} (2007-05-25 12:54:56)
For a limited time if you join now you can eat pork and will automatically get 4 virgins when you die!!!! So stop being an Infidel today and live the life you alway wanted too in sunny Saudi Arabia.
Unlike with the Mormons, if they knock on your door I suggest you convert.
What if Islam is this?
Brought to you by a society based upon the teachings of Islam.
What if Islam is this?
Brought to you by a society based upon the teachings of Islam.
Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2007-05-25 13:16:28)
I don't think that. You are one of my favorite members, ermmm, mods.Kmarion wrote:
Awww, you should know by now that I'm careful with my words. I said it doesn't "seem" also. I'm not a sheepish as you may think brutha.
makkah is a holy place for muslims, nothing anormal with that.Kmarion wrote:
What if it is like this?
Doesn't seem very tolerant to me... but hey, that's their business I guess.
http://i11.tinypic.com/5ybsaow.jpg
Well, I think you can see what kind of problems arise from the limited access to Jerusalem that many people experience.Ottomania wrote:
makkah is a holy place for muslims, nothing anormal with that.Kmarion wrote:
What if it is like this?
Doesn't seem very tolerant to me... but hey, that's their business I guess.
http://i11.tinypic.com/5ybsaow.jpg
I think it's pretty straightforward to assume that when an entire city or other region doesn't allow people to enter it based on religion or race, many problems arise, and the rationale for such restrictions is purely prejudiced.
As long as a significant portion of the Islamic World takes this separatist outlook on various aspects of life, they will continue to be outsiders in many important avenues of cultural progression.
The ethnocentrism of America's foreign policy hurts us in similar ways, but we don't usually go to such lengths as building separate highways for non-Christians or roping off entire cities from them.
Then again, this is Saudi Arabia we're talking about....
but what are you going to do at a place where people mostly pray god at least its not a touristic place?
tell us about the armenian genocideOttomania wrote:
but what are you going to do at a place where people mostly pray god at least its not a touristic place?
Oh shit. I remember seeing the video from where that was i think. It was a program on TV. Ages ago, like right before the invasion of Afghanistan (So i was like, 12/13). Giving us an insight as to how life is like under the Taliban there. I think that was the football (soccer) stadium where they used to execute people. I remember seeing pictures of people hanging from the crossbar of the goal and i think they even showed that woman getting killed by the gun. It was the first time i ever saw someone die like that, shit i couldn't sleep for nights after i saw that. I'm desensitised now but i was shaking after i saw that.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Unlike with the Mormons, if they knock on your door I suggest you convert.
What if Islam is this?
http://www.drsusanblock.com/editorial/t … cution.jpg
Brought to you by a society based upon the teachings of Islam.
Yep, and people make it sound like it is just a few Muslims giving Islam a bad name. They seem to forget that whole there are whole countries in the Middle East that have barbaric societies based on Islamic laws. Somehow I think these same people would be quick to condemn Christianity if any the Christians did half the shit that the Islamic countries are doing in the ME.Mekstizzle wrote:
Oh shit. I remember seeing the video from where that was i think. It was a program on TV. Ages ago, like right before the invasion of Afghanistan (So i was like, 12/13). Giving us an insight as to how life is like under the Taliban there. I think that was the football (soccer) stadium where they used to execute people. I remember seeing pictures of people hanging from the crossbar of the goal and i think they even showed that woman getting killed by the gun. It was the first time i ever saw someone die like that, shit i couldn't sleep for nights after i saw that. I'm desensitised now but i was shaking after i saw that.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Unlike with the Mormons, if they knock on your door I suggest you convert.
What if Islam is this?
http://www.drsusanblock.com/editorial/t … cution.jpg
Brought to you by a society based upon the teachings of Islam.
*shrugs* Oh, I don't know... maybe they could learn to lighten up some? Just throwing around ideas here....Ottomania wrote:
but what are you going to do at a place where people mostly pray god at least its not a touristic place?
The funny thing is, the more reactionary certain Muslim societies become, the less serious they're taken by the outside world. If these people really want respect, they should learn how to be tolerant in their own right.
Because we're setting a sterling example with our reaction to September 11 and granting of rights to gays...................Turquoise wrote:
If these people really want respect, they should learn how to be tolerant in their own right.
Touche', but I think it's safe to say we're certainly more tolerant in most respects than most of the Islamic World.Bubbalo wrote:
Because we're setting a sterling example with our reaction to September 11 and granting of rights to gays...................Turquoise wrote:
If these people really want respect, they should learn how to be tolerant in their own right.
We do need to make some significant improvements though....
Sure. But the difference between us and the Islamic world is the haven't been screwing with our shit for over half a millenium.
Yes, instead they've been screwing their own people by treating women as second class citizens and gays as abominations.Bubbalo wrote:
Sure. But the difference between us and the Islamic world is the haven't been screwing with our shit for over half a millenium.
Yeah, do you think maybe the lack of progress had something to do with the West oppressing them?
Just maybe?
Just maybe?
Some of this, yes. I would argue far more of it stems from pre-Islamic practices in the Middle East and the lack of education among the populace of many Muslim countries outside of that area.Bubbalo wrote:
Yeah, do you think maybe the lack of progress had something to do with the West oppressing them?
Just maybe?
I'm new to this forum and have been reading some of the posts before I joined but when I saw this post, I had to reply. I'm 37, a middle of the road kind of person when it comes to politics, but this post struck a chord with me because I probably know more about Islam than ALMOST anyone here. I was married to a Muslim woman until recently and can say for a fact that Islam shows people 2 faces most of the time. The Muslims that live here show one face in public and quite another behind closed doors. I have sat at many gatherings listening to rhetoric from people that live here in America but have so much hate towards America and other religions and I do mean "hate". Little did these people know that I was raised christian and wasn't a convert to the Muslim religion. It sent a tingle down my spine on several occasions knowing that a lot of mis information, gossip and hateful words were being spread from person to person and then these same people go out and live their lives as our neighbors. This was NOT isolated!...it happened every time and what was odd to me is that the Muslims who didn't believe in this hatred or didn't agree did not speak up. NOT ONCE and I see this all the time in the public world. Do you ever hear Muslims criticize other Muslims PUBLICLY, especially being critical of the how radical it has become? When disaster struck with the tsunami that destroyed parts of the Muslim world, where was the donations from the richest Muslim countries? Very little was given compared to the rest of the world to help these people. True Muslims have a very difficult time speaking up...why? FEAR!! I asked my wife why nobody spoke up and she didn't reply.
From my experience, behind closed doors was the true face. Now, did I meet nice people that would never harm a soul....of course, but my ears will never forget what I have heard. I learned a lot during my marriage to a Muslim woman. I learned the words and studied the history of Islam. Yes, there are a lot of peaceful messages but there are also many messages in Islam that are no where near peaceful. I could take many phrases from Islam and put a video together that is the total opposite of the video posted here. Think and believe what you want but true peaceful Islam has been hijacked by radicals and the worsts parts of Islam are used to justify what radicals do, in fact, many middle east Islamic schools do not teach the true words of Islam but teach a perverted form of it from a very early age. Islam has a goal....to be the ONLY religion in this world and to strike down anyone who it feels is against it. We are in another cold war, a totally different form of cold war and all of you better realize the ramifications if the current trend continues. If anyone believes that current Islam is an innocent, peaceful religion that wants to keep to itself better take a second look because from my experience we are in a battle already. Now, I am not going to get into "prove this" or "prove that"....I know what I have experienced and what I have learned first hand and what is truly going on. Just passing my experience on and one thing for sure...Islam could be what this video shows and...but in reality it just isn't.
Now, I am not here to offend anyone of this religion. I am not against Islam at all...after all I married a Muslim woman and accepted every part of who she was. I just find it totally sad that Islam in its current state is not what this religion is supposed to be and that Islam has lost its way. Like someone else said here...it needs to be reformed by those who need to take their religion back, but fear has a strangle hold on that. My 2 pennies.....That's all.
From my experience, behind closed doors was the true face. Now, did I meet nice people that would never harm a soul....of course, but my ears will never forget what I have heard. I learned a lot during my marriage to a Muslim woman. I learned the words and studied the history of Islam. Yes, there are a lot of peaceful messages but there are also many messages in Islam that are no where near peaceful. I could take many phrases from Islam and put a video together that is the total opposite of the video posted here. Think and believe what you want but true peaceful Islam has been hijacked by radicals and the worsts parts of Islam are used to justify what radicals do, in fact, many middle east Islamic schools do not teach the true words of Islam but teach a perverted form of it from a very early age. Islam has a goal....to be the ONLY religion in this world and to strike down anyone who it feels is against it. We are in another cold war, a totally different form of cold war and all of you better realize the ramifications if the current trend continues. If anyone believes that current Islam is an innocent, peaceful religion that wants to keep to itself better take a second look because from my experience we are in a battle already. Now, I am not going to get into "prove this" or "prove that"....I know what I have experienced and what I have learned first hand and what is truly going on. Just passing my experience on and one thing for sure...Islam could be what this video shows and...but in reality it just isn't.
Now, I am not here to offend anyone of this religion. I am not against Islam at all...after all I married a Muslim woman and accepted every part of who she was. I just find it totally sad that Islam in its current state is not what this religion is supposed to be and that Islam has lost its way. Like someone else said here...it needs to be reformed by those who need to take their religion back, but fear has a strangle hold on that. My 2 pennies.....That's all.
Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-05-28 04:29:38)
I don't know how many Muslims did you know, but it seems to me that you have a first hand experience with Muslims which I don't. Despite this, my point is most of the 1,5 billion Muslims are moderate, and there are few radicals. Maybe these few radicals make the rest fear them, that I don't know. What we need to understand is that Islam goal is not to convert everyone else to Islam. Nowhere in the Qu'ran says that. The media brainwashed us with messages of hatred and extremists. And then Islamophobia is the word of the day. I'm not the exception when it comes to Islamophobia though. I check on Muslims at the airports. That's the danger of generalizing and demonisation. Every innocent is a suspect.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
I'm new to this forum and have been reading some of the posts before I joined but when I saw this post, I had to reply. I'm 37, a middle of the road kind of person when it comes to politics, but this post struck a chord with me because I probably know more about Islam than ALMOST anyone here. I was married to a Muslim woman until recently and can say for a fact that Islam shows people 2 faces most of the time. The Muslims that live here show one face in public and quite another behind closed doors. I have sat at many gatherings listening to rhetoric from people that live here in America but have so much hate towards America and other religions and I do mean "hate". Little did these people know that I was raised christian and wasn't a convert to the Muslim religion. It sent a tingle down my spine on several occasions knowing that a lot of mis information, gossip and hateful words were being spread from person to person and then these same people go out and live their lives as our neighbors. This was NOT isolated!...it happened every time and what was odd to me is that the Muslims who didn't believe in this hatred or didn't agree did not speak up. NOT ONCE and I see this all the time in the public world. Do you ever hear Muslims criticize other Muslims PUBLICLY, especially being critical of the how radical it has become? When disaster struck with the tsunami that destroyed parts of the Muslim world, where was the donations from the richest Muslim countries? Very little was given compared to the rest of the world to help these people. True Muslims have a very difficult time speaking up...why? FEAR!! I asked my wife why nobody spoke up and she didn't reply.
From my experience, behind closed doors was the true face. Now, did I meet nice people that would never harm a soul....of course, but my ears will never forget what I have heard. I learned a lot during my marriage to a Muslim woman. I learned the words and studied the history of Islam. Yes, there are a lot of peaceful messages but there are also many messages in Islam that are no where near peaceful. I could take many phrases from Islam and put a video together that is the total opposite of the video posted here. Think and believe what you want but true peaceful Islam has been hijacked by radicals and the worsts parts of Islam are used to justify what radicals do, in fact, many middle east Islamic schools do not teach the true words of Islam but teach a perverted form of it from a very early age. Islam has a goal....to be the ONLY religion in this world and to strike down anyone who it feels is against it. We are in another cold war, a totally different form of cold war and all of you better realize the ramifications if the current trend continues. If anyone believes that current Islam is an innocent, peaceful religion that wants to keep to itself better take a second look because from my experience we are in a battle already. Now, I am not going to get into "prove this" or "prove that"....I know what I have experienced and what I have learned first hand and what is truly going on. Just passing my experience on and one thing for sure...Islam could be what this video shows and...but in reality it just isn't.
Now, I am not here to offend anyone of this religion. I am not against Islam at all...after all I married a Muslim woman and accepted every part of who she was. I just find it totally sad that Islam in its current state is not what this religion is supposed to be and that Islam has lost its way. Like someone else said here...it needs to be reformed by those who need to take their religion back, but fear has a strangle hold on that. My 2 pennies.....That's all.
Sura 4-89: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”sergeriver wrote:
What we need to understand is that Islam goal is not to convert everyone else to Islam. Nowhere in the Qu'ran says that.
Sura 9-29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura 22-9: “As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.”
Sura 47-4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”
-the Qur'an
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-28 06:59:44)
Such as honour killings?Turquoise wrote:
Some of this, yes. I would argue far more of it stems from pre-Islamic practices in the Middle East and the lack of education among the populace of many Muslim countries outside of that area.Bubbalo wrote:
Yeah, do you think maybe the lack of progress had something to do with the West oppressing them?
Just maybe?
These are ambigous, Allah is God, and we don't know the accuracy of the translation. Let's read other verses:Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Sura 4-89: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”sergeriver wrote:
What we need to understand is that Islam goal is not to convert everyone else to Islam. Nowhere in the Qu'ran says that.
Sura 9-29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura 22-9: “As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.”
Sura 47-4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”
-the Qur'an
“We have truly shown him the way; he may be thankful or unthankful” (76:3).
“The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve” (18:29).
“Clear proofs have indeed come to you from your Lord: so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever is blind, it is to his own harm” (6:104).
“If you do good, you do good for your own souls. And if you do evil, it is for them” (17:7).
The Muslims were allowed to fight indeed, but what was the object? Not to compel the unbelievers to accept Islam, for it was against all the broad principles in which they had been brought up. No, it was to establish religious freedom, to stop all religious persecution, to protect the houses of worship of all religions, mosques among them. (from Religion tolerance site).
“And if Allah did not repel some people by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered, would have been pulled down” (22:40).
“And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah” (2:193).
“And fight them until there is no more persecution, and all religions for Allah” (8:39).
“Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made, because they are oppressed. And Allah is able to assist them — those who are driven from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah” (22:39, 40)
“And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely He is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee” (8:61, 62)
“Allah forbids you not respecting those who fight you not for religion, nor drive you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly. Surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah forbids you only respecting those who fight you for religion, and drive you forth from your homes and help (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends of them; and whoever makes friends of them, these are the wrongdoers” (60:8, 9).
“And whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever — these it is whose works go for nothing in this world and the Hereafter” (2:217).
Ambiguous? Are you kidding me?
Posting other verses is irrelevant. Of course there are peaceful elements of the Qur'an--that doesn't matter. What does matter is that immutable word of Allah is telling Muslims, unless my eyes deceive me, to kill and behead those who are not of the same faith. And guess what, Sergeriver, that's exactly what's going on in the Middle East.
Have you forgotten the British hostage incident in Iran already? They made them convert to Islam!
Ambiguous...
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-28 07:49:51)