KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7061|949

"When Patrick McElwee of the U.S.-based group Just Foreign Policy interviewed representatives of Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders and the Committee to Protect Journalists—all groups that have condemned Venezuela's action in denying RCTV's license renewal—he found that none of the spokespersons thought broadcasters were automatically entitled to license renewals, though none of them thought RCTV's actions in support of the coup should have resulted in the station having its license renewal denied. This led McElwee to wonder, based on the rights groups' arguments, "Could it be that governments like Venezuela have the theoretical right to not to renew a broadcast license, but that no responsible government would ever do it?"

McElwee acknowledged the critics' point that some form of due process should have been involved in the decisions, but explained that laws preexisting Chávez's presidency placed licensing decision with the executive branch, with no real provisions for a hearings process: "Unfortunately, this is what the law, first enacted in 1987, long before Chávez entered the political scene, allows. It charges the executive branch with decisions about license renewal, but does not seem to require any administrative hearing. The law should be changed, but at the current moment when broadcast licenses are up for renewal, it is the prevailing law and thus lays out the framework in which decisions are made."

Government actions weighing on journalism and broadcast licensing deserve strong scrutiny. However, on the central question of whether a government is bound to renew the license of a broadcaster when that broadcaster had been involved in a coup against the democratically elected government, the answer should be clear, as McElwee concludes:

"The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States. In fact, it is frankly amazing that this company has been allowed to broadcast for 5 years after the coup, and that the Chávez government waited until its license expired to end its use of the public airwaves."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

From the link I provided (which I am sure no one read, based on the arguments)

Hugo Chavez used legal powers in use before he was elected to shut down the station.  It is being reported (wrongly) that he simply went in and took over the station.  As I said before, this (the license renewal) has been playing out in the Venezuelan Judicial System for months.  I have been following this for some time now.  If people have a problem with the way their government is run, use the voting process to change it.

Hugo Chavez isn't an angel by any means, and a lot of the actions he takes are probably detrimental to Venezuelan society.  However, as is noted in the article, in how many democracies would this actually fly in?  It's easy to critique it in another country (constantly vilified in American media), but I would expect nothing less in the USA.

The fact that the station allowed coup leaders the platform to rally people, businesses, and the international community would not go unpunished in any society, ours included.

Also:
"The Venezuelan government is basing its denial of license on RCTV's involvement in the 2002 coup, not on the station's criticisms of or political opposition to the government. Many American pundits and some human rights spokespersons have confused the issue by claiming the action is based merely on political differences, failing to note that Venezuela's media, including its commercial broadcasters, are still among the most vigorously dissident on the planet."

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-29 10:10:37)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The move sparked international condemnation and accusations from the opposition that he was undermining democracy in the OPEC nation.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I spent a summer in Venezuela and I never saw any of the beautiful women that Venezuela is know for. Quite disappointing.

Oh yea topic, everything is about oil isn't it..lol. Forget the fact it has been condemned by Human rights watch and Reporters Without Borders. (For an opposing view see Ken's link)

And these guys.

https://i13.tinypic.com/61ytnoo.jpg

https://i17.tinypic.com/4r9tf6t.jpg

@Ken: No one is charging that he did not have the political power to do so. It just allows him to selectively choose to not renew licenses based on their criticism.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6971|Outer Space

Kmarion wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The move sparked international condemnation and accusations from the opposition that he was undermining democracy in the OPEC nation.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I spent a summer in Venezuela and I never saw any of the beautiful women that Venezuela is know for. Quite disappointing.

Oh yea topic, everything is about oil isn't it..lol. Forget the fact it has been condemned by Human rights watch and Reporters Without Borders.

And these guys.

http://i13.tinypic.com/61ytnoo.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/4r9tf6t.jpg
You replying to me? Did you watch the whole thing? The same opposition accusing him of undermining democracy, did quite a lot of undermining themselves not so far ago. So: pot, kettle, black.





Edit: Oh yeah, on topic - check the video at 43:22

Last edited by Sorcerer0513 (2007-05-29 10:12:21)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.
I spent a summer in Venezuela and I never saw any of the beautiful women that Venezuela is know for. Quite disappointing.

Oh yea topic, everything is about oil isn't it..lol. Forget the fact it has been condemned by Human rights watch and Reporters Without Borders.

And these guys.

http://i13.tinypic.com/61ytnoo.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/4r9tf6t.jpg
You replying to me? Did you watch the whole thing? The same opposition accusing him of undermining democracy, did quite a lot of undermining themselves not so far ago. So: pot, kettle, black.
Hypocritical sure. However, you think that somehow negates having the authority to selectively pick what everyone is fed? Cloudy logic.


I know they exist (The women). I just did not see them in Caracas. They must keep them in a glass jar somewhere .

(Video is playing now. Shared work conn.... ug)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7061|949

Kmarion wrote:

@Ken: No one is charging that he did not have the political power to do so. It just allows him to selectively choose to not renew licenses based on their criticism.
"He" doesn't have the power.  The power is in the legislature.  "He" doesn't have power over the courts.  There is a separation of power in Venezuela (not as elucidative as the USA's) and the Courts (not Hugo) are the ones that ruled and upheld the matter.

I could post pictures of people celebrating the decision, but instead I'll just let you post pictures of protesters.  That is where the censorship comes in - You post a link to the article, but then only include parts you think help your argument, instead of presenting the whole argument.  It's OK though, because I will remain vigilant in supplying the forums with the (often criticized) dissenting view
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

@Ken: No one is charging that he did not have the political power to do so. It just allows him to selectively choose to not renew licenses based on their criticism.
"He" doesn't have the power.  The power is in the legislature.  "He" doesn't have power over the courts.  There is a separation of power in Venezuela (not as elucidative as the USA's) and the Courts (not Hugo) are the ones that ruled and upheld the matter.

I could post pictures of people celebrating the decision, but instead I'll just let you post pictures of protesters.  That is where the censorship comes in - You post a link to the article, but then only include parts you think help your argument, instead of presenting the whole argument.  It's OK though, because I will remain vigilant in supplying the forums with the (often criticized) dissenting view
The judiciary is subservient to the executive power.

Don't you know a picture is worth a thousand words .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7061|949

Kmarion wrote:

The judiciary is subservient to the executive power.

Don't you know a picture is worth a thousand words .
Like the Supreme Court deciding an election?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The judiciary is subservient to the executive power.

Don't you know a picture is worth a thousand words .
Like the Supreme Court deciding an election?
lol.. nice. In certain circumstances yes.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6971|Outer Space

Kmarion wrote:

Hypocritical sure. However, you think that somehow negates having the authority to selectively pick what everyone is fed? Cloudy logic.


I know they exist (The women). I just did not see them in Caracas. They must keep them in a glass jar somewhere .

Kmarion wrote:

You have still have not provided any evidence of the stations involvement in the coup. Are we going to allow Nazi era tactics of simply using accusations as evidence. The station is critical of the government, so they must have had a direct role in it .
Come on Kmarion, you can do better .(google video linky)
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Hypocritical sure. However, you think that somehow negates having the authority to selectively pick what everyone is fed? Cloudy logic.


I know they exist (The women). I just did not see them in Caracas. They must keep them in a glass jar somewhere .

Kmarion wrote:

You have still have not provided any evidence of the stations involvement in the coup. Are we going to allow Nazi era tactics of simply using accusations as evidence. The station is critical of the government, so they must have had a direct role in it .
Come on Kmarion, you can do better .(google video linky)
Why hasn't any of the other stations that played a role in Chavez's removal suffered the same fate? I am at a distinct disadvantage since the video is playing intermittently.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7061|949

Here is the bottom line - You should be able to broadcast virtually anything as far as I am concerned (child porn and actual murder/violent crime would be where I draw the line).  However, living in a democracy as we have today, there has to be certain limits on the freedom of expression (unfortunately).  Clearly a news channel in the US would not think that actively fomenting a rebellion against elected leaders would go unpunished.  So why do we hold Hugo Chavez (and the Ven. media/society) to a different standard then our own?  That would be the most important question to me.

Also, where is the US in this whole equation?  I have a feeling that now that the actions of the stations (RCTV and Venevision) in supporting the coup attempt are common international knowledge, the US role in the coup attempt is going to be picked over with a fine-toothed comb.

Interestingly, the other station involved (Venevision) has not lost its license.  If Hugo is so intent on silencing dissidents, why have the government shut down one station and not the other?

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-29 10:31:34)

fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6919|Menlo Park, CA

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is where that ends. But we all must remember that this is a problem that Venezuelans must solve, not anyone else.
I agree whole heartedly.
Well. . . .

Thats true to a degree. . . . .

But when innocent Venezuelans are fleeing the country, and or businesses are getting nationalized on a daily basis other countries need to intervene. . . .

What Chavez is doing is bad for human rights AND bad for business. . . .He is a thug pure and simple, and needs to get his nuts kicked in! I am not saying military action is needed here, but a big whack from the economic sanction stick needs to occur. . . . His actions are reprehensible
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6971|Outer Space

Kmarion wrote:

Why hasn't any of the other stations that played a role in Chavez's removal suffered the same fate? I am at a distinct disadvantage since the video is playing intermittently.
I have no idea. Mind you, my posts before don't mean that I automatically agree with Chavez, but the station in question is not as innocent as you make it out to be. And according to a link I read, they only lost the public frequency, they can still transmit on the cable(network? me english not be good)? Not sure about that, can anyone confirm or deny?

In the end, it is an internal Venezuelan matter that they will have to solve themselves.

EDIT:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Interestingly, the other station involved (Venevision) has not lost its license.  If Hugo is so intent on silencing dissidents, why have the government shut down one station and not the other?
Maybe he's waiting for their license to expire?

Last edited by Sorcerer0513 (2007-05-29 10:39:29)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Here is the bottom line - You should be able to broadcast virtually anything as far as I am concerned (child porn and actual murder/violent crime would be where I draw the line).  However, living in a democracy as we have today, there has to be certain limits on the freedom of expression (unfortunately).  Clearly a news channel in the US would not think that actively fomenting a rebellion against elected leaders would go unpunished.  So why do we hold Hugo Chavez (and the Ven. media/society) to a different standard then our own?  That would be the most important question to me.

Also, where is the US in this whole equation?  I have a feeling that now that the actions of the stations (RCTV and Venevision) in supporting the coup attempt are common international knowledge, the US role in the coup attempt is going to be picked over with a fine-toothed comb.

Interestingly, the other station involved (Venevision) has not lost its license.  If Hugo is so intent on silencing dissidents, why have the government shut down one station and not the other?
From what I understand Venevision has conformed to be friendly towards Chavez. Or have at least ceased to be critical. I think the difference should be holding people accountable and not shutting down an entire television station. Go after the producers/reporters that advocate illegal action.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Fen321
Member
+54|6926|Singularity
Going directly after the people would sound to me as having a bit of a catch 20-22 applied to it. For if we were to see that route actually followed we would quickly come to find that the same condemnation would be applied to their now "forceful" removal after expressing dissent. Dissent of course not being defined by us .

P.S.
The video with regards to the Chavez supporters definitely gives one a perfect perspective....RICH status quo doesn't like the changes that could help the poor....bah

Last edited by Fen321 (2007-05-29 11:14:38)

oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6948|Πάϊ
I don't like this tv thing one bit... it reminds me of horrible regimes. But here's a story I read earlier, it paints a different picture than the OP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6646335.stm
ƒ³
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072
senses of strong nationalism are always followed by wars
Fen321
Member
+54|6926|Singularity
That are fought via state sponsored terror
bigdroo
Member
+7|6856|Yooahss-ayy!
Hmm... maybe if we hire the Ethiopian Army to invade.... oh wait... That's Somalia.

Hmm... maybe if we hire the Colombian or Brazilian Ar......

lol
David.P
Banned
+649|6703

Kmarion wrote:

Inciting an assassination attempt.. pfft f#*kng Chavez.

http://i19.tinypic.com/6gu46dh.jpg
Well then just send me there and i will kill him without hesitation. M82 and an AK47 please.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6984

David.Podedworny wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Inciting an assassination attempt.. pfft f#*kng Chavez.

http://i19.tinypic.com/6gu46dh.jpg
Well then just send me there and i will kill him without hesitation. M82 and an AK47 please.
Why do you feel so aggrieved?
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6971|Outer Space

David.Podedworny wrote:

Well then just send me there and i will kill him without hesitation. M82 and an AK47 please.
Reality check... Failed.
dc_involved
Member
+13|6959

CameronPoe wrote:

Disgraceful. Up until now I have supported Hugo Chavez, the democratically elected leader of Venezuela. This is where that ends. But we all must remember that this is a problem that Venezuelans must solve, not anyone else.
Cameron, I expect more from you. In the last thread on this topic i mentioned that this TV station was involved in a failed coup attempt (bloodless as far as I know). He has tolerated the middle class media broadcasting propaganda against him for nearly 9 years. Been elected 3 times no less and is doing the socialist bit for the working people. The frenzy the american media cook up against this man is not suprising considering they are scared shitless of any form of socialism/communism actually working out because it might spread.

There are always going to be protesters, you can bet its not the poor or the workers. It'll be students and middle class wankers.

If the BBC tried interfering in the democratic process do you think they would survive here?

You know I am cautious in watching this man. Many a brutal dictator started out a peoples hero. If he starts closing any TV station that doesn't agree with him then i'll get worried. But for now I still support him.

When they (America/ Venezualan Middle Class) tried to remove him a while back they forged footage of his forces firing into a crowd of innocents. Do not underestimate how far the media can go when they need to pursue a goal. Take a look at the clips posted here ffs.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6984

dc_involved wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Disgraceful. Up until now I have supported Hugo Chavez, the democratically elected leader of Venezuela. This is where that ends. But we all must remember that this is a problem that Venezuelans must solve, not anyone else.
Cameron, I expect more from you. In the last thread on this topic i mentioned that this TV station was involved in a failed coup attempt (bloodless as far as I know). He has tolerated the middle class media broadcasting propaganda against him for nearly 9 years. Been elected 3 times no less and is doing the socialist bit for the working people. The frenzy the american media cook up against this man is not suprising considering they are scared shitless of any form of socialism/communism actually working out because it might spread.

There are always going to be protesters, you can bet its not the poor or the workers. It'll be students and middle class wankers.

If the BBC tried interfering in the democratic process do you think they would survive here?

You know I am cautious in watching this man. Many a brutal dictator started out a peoples hero. If he starts closing any TV station that doesn't agree with him then i'll get worried. But for now I still support him.

When they (America/ Venezualan Middle Class) tried to remove him a while back they forged footage of his forces firing into a crowd of innocents. Do not underestimate how far the media can go when they need to pursue a goal. Take a look at the clips posted here ffs.
No you have me wrong. That station committed crimes against democracy and the state and needed to be reprimanded/shut. But apparently since then Chavez has moved his attention onto another TV station. If this develops into a domino effect then frankly my doubts about him will grow to insurmountable proportions.
David.P
Banned
+649|6703

CameronPoe wrote:

David.Podedworny wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Inciting an assassination attempt.. pfft f#*kng Chavez.

http://i19.tinypic.com/6gu46dh.jpg
Well then just send me there and i will kill him without hesitation. M82 and an AK47 please.
Why do you feel so aggrieved?
Because freinds suck and will betray you, I learned something new today. Enemies are more trustworthy then Friends.

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