Well, is it?

2007-06-07 21:53:00

#1

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

Removing a dictator is very noble and such, as is getting rid of an opressive, extremist religious regime...

But is it possible to force democracy upon a society? Democracy is about choice. Does it seem insane for me to say that the populace has to choose democracy, probably through revolution?

Just thought that the discussion surrounding this could be very interesting and provoking. I actually wanted Bubs and lowing's views on this particularly but lowing isn't about.

Anyway; I personally think that attempting to force democracy upon a society is a moronic thing to do. How long did it take France to become democratic? I mean they started moves toward democracy waaay back in the 1700's... And failed again and again to realise it, bringing in Napoleon and restoring the monarchy...

Germany went from Kaiser Wilhelm to the Weimar Republic to Hitler...

If Iraq is united again, it will be under a dictatorial regime. I don't think it will ever unite again though, more likely to turn into three seperate regions, Sunni, Shia and Kurdish.

Last edited by Flecco (2007-06-07 21:59:15)

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2007-06-07 21:56:15

#2

David.P: Banned; +649|6720

Yes but not by a foreign government but the people themselves.

2007-06-07 22:02:35

#3

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

David.Podedworny wrote:
Yes but not by a foreign government but the people themselves.

That's what I mean, revolution. Even then an internal revolution can fail to bring about democracy totally... (see the French example)

Provoking revolution from outside doesn't work either. Afghanistan is a tribute to that. I still think Ahmad Massoud is one of the most heroic men of recent years.

Last edited by Flecco (2007-06-07 22:02:59)

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2007-06-07 22:05:00

#4

chittydog: less busy; +586|7281|Kubra, Damn it!

Sure, but that doesn't mean it will stay that way.

2007-06-07 22:06:01

#5

maffiaw: ph33r me 傻逼; +40|6867|Melbourne, AUS

VERY insightful thread!

It is known that "democracy is a fragile flower". In the right places and political/social/economic climate it can flourish. In the wrong place, and it will wither and die horribly. The US is a prime example of a success, where historical factors mixed in with the socio-economic atmosphere make democracy an effective governing apparatus.
Look at countless African countries where endless civil wars have been fought over "vote rigging", where the losing candidate simply cries foul and in initiates their own militia. It is because these cultures are simply not suited for democracy. Iraq is just another example where ethnic traditions rank far higher for average Iraqis than the concept of a "vote". It is only natural for a populace to not give a frick about the freedom to vote if they are hungry, downtrodden or being shot at everyday.
It's as simple as that. The reason some people have the illusion that "if we impose democracy everything will be goody-good" is because Western governments have simply used this concept as a medium to initiate sanctions or military operations on a perceived geo-political threat.

/class over

Last edited by maffiaw (2007-06-07 22:06:21)

2007-06-07 22:07:10

#6

David.P: Banned; +649|6720

Flecco wrote:
Provoking revolution from outside doesn't work either. Afghanistan is a tribute to that. I still think Ahmad Massoud is one of the most heroic men of recent years.

Damn right if he was still alive bin ladens head would be hanging in the whitehouse next to saddams and ahmajinadeds(Or what ever he's called) And The middle east would have more stability egypt and lebonan would still be a problem though.

Last edited by David.Podedworny (2007-06-07 22:07:58)

2007-06-07 22:17:09

#7

tthf: Member 5307; +210|7204|06-01

the problem with iraq is that is was an articially created state by the colonial british, they just drew lines in the sand and forced different tribes to co-exist. so when the brits left, you have political parties based on faith ( sunni, shia, kurd etc) fighting for power. so after a years of political turmoil and what have you, in steps dear old Mr. Saddam. Now, he knows the only to rule over all the other unruly factions is via an ironfist, to preserve the artificial territory. The western powers do nothing to stop him (then even support/ supply him in his war against Iran). Only when does he fuck up by threatening the oil supply to the west (his Kuwaiti sojourn) does the US led coalition step in and chase him back home.
after closing off his borders, the western powers do literally jackshit untill 9/11. And thats only after the suppresion in Afganistan aint going too well. Then they come steam rolling in.

Well my point is, all the people of Iraq (current generations) know is force of arms. Nothing gets done via talking. Only when some shoots does someone scoot.
And this aint gonna change anytime soon.
Look at the mess some of the African countries are in as well....
Past examples: Vietnam in the 50s and 60s wasnt ready, they now look in better shape to convert.
Forced democracy isnt going to solve anything.. If the people arent ready, the counrty isnt ready.

edit: maffiaw beat me to it...

Last edited by tthf (2007-06-07 22:18:52)

2007-06-07 22:19:19

#8

cospengle: Member; +140|6933|Armidale, NSW, Australia

I votes yes. If you try to force democracy on a society, and they don't want it, they will reject your democracy. Then by popular demand implement their own style of government. So that's democracy anyway... I guess.

2007-06-07 22:45:48

#9

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

THIS TOPIC APPLIES TO HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS AS WELL. I'M NOT JUST AFTER COMMETS ABOUT IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN HERE...

cospengle, it's not democracy if they institute a totalitarian party based/hereditary dictatorship.

I love Somaliland, it's what I mean by people choosing democracy. Pity it doesn't exist according to the UN...

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2007-06-07 22:48:55

#10

aj0404: It'll just be our little secret; +298|6796|Iowa...

David.Podedworny wrote:
Yes but not by a foreign government but the people themselves.

if the people choose to do it themselves then is it really forced?

2007-06-07 22:50:49

#11

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7162

You can't force an ideal unto people, otherwise it would be the exact opposite of democracy...

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2007-06-07 23:26:52

#12

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
You can't force an ideal unto people, otherwise it would be the exact opposite of democracy...

Puppet governments...

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2007-06-07 23:31:41

#13

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|7047|132 and Bush

Nope. It is like success, you can present it to them but no one can force another person to be successful. A Democracy requires responsibility. Some people are incapable, others just don't want it.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2007-06-07 23:47:03

#14

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|7136|Tampa Bay Florida

Whenever you talk about people as a whole, you have to remember that they're not one solid group. I'm sure there are lots of Iraqis who embrace the idea of an American supported democracy in Iraq, but the problem is there's not enough people.

2007-06-07 23:49:58

#15

G3|Genius: Pope of BF2s; +355|7072|Sea to globally-cooled sea

Democracy is natural.

Democracy cannot be forced--it's what we were all created to have. We have free will, and the desire to exercise that comes most naturally.

I believe that non-democratic governments are the ones that are forced. It is when the minority rules the majority that tensions rise.

Therefore, I voted no. The pathetic political implication of your survey is immature. If you want accurate results, be more thorough.

2007-06-08 00:46:26

#16

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

G3|Genius wrote:
Democracy is natural.

Democracy cannot be forced--it's what we were all created to have. We have free will, and the desire to exercise that comes most naturally. I think you'll find that's a nurture thing, not a nature thing. The "East" Germans I've talked to wish for a return to the simple life where many decisions were made for them. I understand that while the small group I talked to don't represent the majority, their opinions count for something...

I believe that non-democratic governments are the ones that are forced. All government is forced... The executive branch of government exists for a reason... It is when the minority rules the majority that tensions rise. Again, all societies have tension, if they didn't we wouldn't need an executive branch or a government....

Therefore, I voted no. The pathetic political implication of your survey is immature. If you want accurate results, be more thorough.

Err...

So let me get this straight, you seem to agree with what I'm trying to say in terms of not being able to force democracy on society then you claim I set this up for some sort of "pathetic political implication"...

I actually just wanted to see what people's honest views on the matter are.

I think I'm missing something in your post. Care to elaborate before this becomes a rather large misunderstanding?

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2007-06-08 00:58:03

#17

BVC: Member; +325|7142

Removing a bad guy is good, but forcing a system of government on a people is bad.

2007-06-08 01:04:26

#18

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|7047|132 and Bush

Pubic wrote:
Removing a bad guy is good, but forcing a system of government on a people is bad.

If you remove a leader how do you not "force" a system of government on them?

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2007-06-08 01:09:54

#19

mcminty: Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.; +879|7168|Sydney, Australia

Using Iraq as an example:

Back in the days of empire building, England screwed Iraq up. They put a bunch of poeple who believed one thing with a bunch of people who believed another. The don't get along.

If a democracy it to work there, the people must want it. It must 'evolve' from within the country. The amount of bloodshed between the two main groups in Iraq means that at the current time, there can be no democracy. They don't want it. Simple.

Mcminty.

2007-06-08 01:57:39

#20

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|7002

Governance evolves, it can't be imposed. You can't fast track political development.

2007-06-08 03:53:50

#21

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6736|Éire

G3|Genius wrote:
Democracy is natural.

Democracy cannot be forced--it's what we were all created to have. We have free will, and the desire to exercise that comes most naturally.

I believe that non-democratic governments are the ones that are forced. It is when the minority rules the majority that tensions rise.

Therefore, I voted no. The pathetic political implication of your survey is immature. If you want accurate results, be more thorough.

That is such a blinkered view of the world as a whole. Sure, democracy may seem 'natural' to us but the Middle East doesn't seem to have the same hunger for democracy that we have and who are we in the West to try and force it. The very fact that you say democracy is 'natural' would imply that the US attempting to steam into Iraq and enforce it is tantamount to banging one's head off a brick wall.

2007-06-08 03:58:28

#22

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7204|Argentina

Forcing Democracy upon a society is a dictatorship. When a society is a ready for it, Democracy will find its way.

2007-06-08 04:08:31

#23

Tjasso: the "Commander"; +102|6969|the Netherlands

i believe it can but if i look to the EAST of Europe .... what a mess its gonna be a hard and long road to get there and there will always be conflicts around ... although we have democracy it dont mean we can all get a long but hopefully agree on eachother and show some respect and are willing to share the same ground the same world so we can all have nice and peacefull living ... together

May the force be with us ...

Last edited by Tjasso (2007-06-08 04:09:19)

2007-06-08 10:57:59

#24

thebestshooter: Banned; +12|6762

no way.. look at iraq.. we are doing that same thing and their handing our troops an ass whoppping

Yes.	21%	21% - 8
No.	78%	78% - 30
Total: 38

BF2S Forums Well, is it?

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David.Podedworny wrote:

Flecco wrote:

David.Podedworny wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

G3|Genius wrote:

Pubic wrote:

G3|Genius wrote:

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