Last edited by Elamdri (2007-06-12 10:28:54)
Last edited by Lost Hope (2007-06-12 10:30:27)
Haganah were the one that wasn't really a terrorist organisation. Lehi and the Irgun were the other two - which were proper fully fledged terror groups who conducted bombing campaigns against civilians etc.M.O.A.B wrote:
Was one of them the Haganah? That sounds familiar.Bertster7 wrote:
Both, to begin with.M.O.A.B wrote:
Are you talking about IDF or the Israeli people themselves, I know the IDF are heavy handed at times.
These days, solely the IDF - which is why it is state terrorism (since the IDF are a branch of the state).
Did you know the IDF was formed by an amalgamation of three organisations, two of which were classed as terrorist organisations who conducted terror attacks against the Palestinian people and the British?
Whether what was once a desert is now an oasis under Israeli occupation is irrelevant in the context of international law and of what is right and wrong. It is not the Israelis land to do anything with. If the Palestinians want to waste their resources then that is their right. If you are seriously telling me that you thought the West Bank was like New Jersey then I find it hard to take you seriously. Do you have any idea what the GNP per capita is in Palestine? Do you realise that those roads you probably travelled on through the West Bank are forbidden to Palestinians and that they cut up the Palestinian road infrastructure making the West Bank into a patchwork of non-contiguous cantons. Commutes in Palestine can take 11 hours because of Israeli built roads and IDF roadblocks. How on earth is any state of Palestine going to prosper economically in such conditions - it isn't: and that is Israel's intention.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
i've been to Israel twice (once in '98 and once just a few months ago). i've been also to west bank (well - driven through it and this was in the earlier trip). Honestly, it looked like New jersey to me at that time - just a bunch of farms. I'm sure if i was to go into the towns it would be different - granted. What i did notice is that many of the areas that the Israelis have settled, the area actually improves. I'm not convinced that this happened in the previous 1000 years with nomadic palestinians running around.
I'm Irish. The Irish didn't suck it up and play along while the Brits ravaged our country and tried to destroy us, our language and our culture. You need to engage the empathy section of your brain if you are gonna begin to understand the Palestinian point of view - a point of view based of being driven off their land, out of their homes, of artillery shells, internment without charge or trial, extra-judicial killings and much, much more. Palestinians are very well educated as far as I could see. I had a degree holder treat me to a tour of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in the West Bank for a pittance of a tip because a) he had no hope of getting proper work and b) he needed food on his plate. While I was there the Israelis had a cordon of tanks around the town and a curfew in place after dark.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
what i have a big problem with is that instead of just sucking it up and playing along they fight. if the palestinians would instead just focus on stopping violence educating their kids in science/math/medicine instead of the koran at islamic universities, i'm sure they would improve their lives. Then - and here's the kicker - after a bunch of years of playing nice, improving their living conditions, i'm sure they could work out deals with government to have a two state solution. instead, they are committed to a one state solution - ie, palestine not israel.
I disagree with the they 'caused this in [the] first place' - in agreement with international opinion at the UN re 1967 but in disagreement with them on sanctioning a state of Israel in 1948. I now agree that Israel should exist, a state defined by 1948 borders (in accordance with international law) but I do not concede that the Arabs started it. The Zionist movement and the British government/random members of the international community started this. If anywhere the Jews should have been given eastern Germany (modern day western Poland) as a state.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
Cameron, i appreciate your comments it's just that i simply disagree with them. i think you over-react a bit with the ghetto comments on the palestinian situation when in fact it is they who caused this in first place. I have some palestinian friends who are Israeli citizens and live a great life over there. They are educated and 'play along' i guess you could say. they are not militant and lead very productive lives. maybe this hits upon a good point (education level).
There is a point that we will respectfully agree to disagree upon. I don't hold to the view that Palestinians are Jordanians. They were part of Ottoman-era administrative region of Palestine, Jordanians are from the other side of the river. Jordan can't help out because they sold themselves down the river by accepting peace with Israel, same goes for Egypt. The refugees in Jordan and all over the middle east have their homes in Palestine. They want to go back home. I accept that that is no longer feasible but I believe Israel should pay them reparations for the inconvenience and cost to them (similar to German reparations to the Jewish after WWII).CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
I believe the ones who have difficult time are from the lands that Israel took in 1967 or 1973 wars and are actually Jordanians. So again, i pose the question, why doesn't Jordan or Lebanon take these poor people in and help out? it would crush their infrastructures to have to care for all these indigent people. So, they use it as a thorn in the side of Israel. Israel is in a life-or-death battle with the rest of the middle east. That's the way i see it.
I'm not saying 'No Wall' - I'm saying 'Build the wall on your own internationally recognised land'. It's a land grab, pure and simple. It certainly isn't working towards 'peace and reconciliation'.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
Regarding the security wall, it's just one possible solution. If you have tons of people moving in/out of a region that are smuggling arms and probably other things, how might you suggest you control this flow for protection sake? Of course, we should strive to prevent the situation in first place and that's our idealistic goal , however the practical goal might be short-term safety. If not a wall, what else?
I have said many times on this forum that the US shows woeful disregard for its southern border and if a wall is what it takes to fix it then so be it.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
We face similar thing of sorts over here in US with mexico. I'd love for all the hard working immigrants to come to our country and contribute however more often than not they become a drain on our resources and my paycheck in form of social services we pay out to these people (my taxes). It's unfortunate they they are often lower skilled workers. believe me i would not be complaining if they all knew c++ or could code php, etc. as it is, they don't and come here to make a buck doing what they can. i see their drive as good but the fact that it is unchecked is the problem. who else might be coming across that wishes us ill will? maybe a few terrorist cells? mexican gangs? the list goes on and on. I'm not happy with my own choice of President on his handling of the border issue and it's become a hot topic over here of late. My belief is that we should deploy some national guard troops on border to help police the area.
omfgCaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
what i have a big problem with is that instead of just sucking it up and playing along they fight.
Perhaps because of media-sanitised coverage of Israel in the US? They are human rights violators. Fact.M.O.A.B wrote:
That's your opinion, I hardly think Israel to be a terrorist state.CameronPoe wrote:
Well what are they gonna do about state terrorists Israel?
What i'm saying is that in terms of progress and reduction of their misery, perhaps if they tried a different approach eg, working together WITH Israel, they'd actually be less miserable.oug wrote:
omfgCaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
what i have a big problem with is that instead of just sucking it up and playing along they fight.
you might want to reconsider the above statement before posting again
Wrong analogy.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
I see israel as defending themselves. If Mexico or God-forbid Canadians started coming into the US and launching rocket attacks, don't you think you'd get a bit ticked off if you were an American? Or, perhaps if you were Irish, might you get upset if someone from Scotland lobbed rockets over the water into Ireland? Far fetched i know but hopefully you get the point.
Amen. NEVER give up. NEVER. Don't accept injustice. Tiocfaidh ár lá.oug wrote:
This is getting off topic... but honestly, what makes you think Israel wants to cooperate? Israel is the reason their lives are so miserable. You got this all wrong... Greece was under Turkish occupation for 400 fucking years. If there's one thing that teaches me is that you never give up. And the more miserable your life is, the harder you fight. "Συν ται η επι ται" as we say.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-12 13:02:30)
this is already happening only it's not China but a different country and with less intensity. China is also becoming an economic powerhouse so i'm sure that they might overtake US someday.AutralianChainsaw wrote:
Wrong analogy.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
I see israel as defending themselves. If Mexico or God-forbid Canadians started coming into the US and launching rocket attacks, don't you think you'd get a bit ticked off if you were an American? Or, perhaps if you were Irish, might you get upset if someone from Scotland lobbed rockets over the water into Ireland? Far fetched i know but hopefully you get the point.
If you are american, just imagine if China decided that the state of Texas belong to them, they start moving in, destroy the houses of your fellow american, start stealing their water,their oil field, patroling their streets, shooting missiles in residential area, patroling with tanks uprooting trees etc.. would you resist? would you launch rockets to them ? or maybe you would just say to them welcome to my land.. take what you want ill just move to somewhere else since theres a lot of american land around..
think about it
The Chinese will not be invading America any time in the next couple of millennia.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
this is already happening only it's not China but a different country and with less intensity. China is also becoming an economic powerhouse so i'm sure that they might overtake US someday.
Occupation of Ireland by the British. Extensive reading of the background of the situation there and how it was arrived at. Having visited the area, speaking to both sides of the divide and witnessing the oppression suffered. A strong sense of justice.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
i'm beginning to think i'm the only one that thinks the way i do. Can you folks help me understand better *why* you form your positions? What motivates you all to side with palestinians over israelis,
Hate BUSH. NOT USA. I think about 65% of your fellow countrymen do to....CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
and to hate Bush/US Policy so much? How has US Policy affected *you* directly?
a) In the e-mail he essentially outlines a 'Bush in different clothing' manifesto.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
Also, back again on topic, please educate me as to *why* you folks hate Rudy so much. I hear alot of negative comments but haven't seen much in terms of real substance (at least in this thread) as to the reasoning behind it.
Welcome to the World Wide Web. We see everything you see in the media.CameronPoe wrote:
Perhaps because of media-sanitised coverage of Israel in the US? They are human rights violators. Fact.M.O.A.B wrote:
That's your opinion, I hardly think Israel to be a terrorist state.CameronPoe wrote:
Well what are they gonna do about state terrorists Israel?
I saw an equally biased liberal 'presidential election 2008' update on the CNN website: 'Clinton takes lead in Presidential Battle'. Of course they were only referring to the Democratic nomination not the race itself, although an ignorant attention-sapped pleb would have assumed she was going to be the next president....Kmarion wrote:
Welcome to the World Wide Web. We see everything you see in the media.CameronPoe wrote:
Perhaps because of media-sanitised coverage of Israel in the US? They are human rights violators. Fact.M.O.A.B wrote:
That's your opinion, I hardly think Israel to be a terrorist state.
On a side note Fred Thompson is catching Giuliani and he is not even in the race officially yet..lol
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld … 0343.story
Aye, quite a few of the general populace wouldnt be to sharp as to what it ment unless it was spelt out to themCameronPoe wrote:
I saw an equally biased liberal 'presidential election 2008' update on the CNN website: 'Clinton takes lead in Presidential Battle'. Of course they were only referring to the Democratic nomination not the race itself, although an ignorant attention-sapped pleb would have assumed she was going to be the next president....Kmarion wrote:
Welcome to the World Wide Web. We see everything you see in the media.CameronPoe wrote:
Perhaps because of media-sanitised coverage of Israel in the US? They are human rights violators. Fact.
On a side note Fred Thompson is catching Giuliani and he is not even in the race officially yet..lol
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld … 0343.story
At least Clinton has officially joined the race though.CameronPoe wrote:
I saw an equally biased liberal 'presidential election 2008' update on the CNN website: 'Clinton takes lead in Presidential Battle'. Of course they were only referring to the Democratic nomination not the race itself, although an ignorant attention-sapped pleb would have assumed she was going to be the next president....Kmarion wrote:
Welcome to the World Wide Web. We see everything you see in the media.CameronPoe wrote:
Perhaps because of media-sanitised coverage of Israel in the US? They are human rights violators. Fact.
On a side note Fred Thompson is catching Giuliani and he is not even in the race officially yet..lol
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld … 0343.story
QFToug wrote:
I honestly can't imagine a worst case scenario for the world, than this slimy bastard being voted into office.
We will vote for whom we want as president. Your little temerptantrum isn't going to stop anyone from voting for this man. I am not saying I will but maybe you need to stick your nose out of our politics since you and the rest of the world complain about the U.S. of fucking A. getting into the worlds' affairs even when it does not concern us. Yes I agree we need to mind our own damn business but so does the rest of the world.CameronPoe wrote:
I am on several mailing lists of publications in the middle east, one of which being the right wing 'Jerusalem Post' of Israel. Moments ago I received a mail from the Jerusalem Post that made my blood boil. The contents were as follows (all formatting for emphasis added by me):Is this what American politics is about? Take a fucking look at this shit. This is unbelievable. Un-fucking-believable. Brazenly asking for money from foreigners to prop up his domestic political campaign. Stating unflinching support for state terrorists whose heinous crimes are well documented and continue on a daily basis. A man seeking dollars on a promise that he will keep up the 'death and destruction' campaign of George W. Bush. His rhetoric ironically makes him sound like that nutjob Ahmedinjad. The Arafat-Barak-Clinton talks were the closest to achieving peace there EVER IN THE WHOLE OF HISTORY. And he casually tosses this aside in favour of bombs and blood. He criticises fellow Americans in this e-mail to a bunch of foreigners like me!!! How fucking conniving and un-American is that?Jerusalem Post on behalf of RudyGiuliani wrote:
Dear Friend,
As a longtime friend and staunch supporter of Israel during my entire public life, I want to share with you my deep concern for the Jewish state and ask for your support as I campaign to become the next President of the United States.
We are at a crucial moment in history. We are once again at a point where the free world's resolve in fighting evil is being tested.
In the 1990's, we had the blinders on with regard to Islamic terrorism. Coddling terrorists-even applauding for winning the Nobel Peace prize as was done with Yasser Arafat - is a policy we cannot return to.
Yet, these blinders are still worn by some people who wish to lead our country.
In neither of their debates did the Democrats mention Islamic fundamentalist terrorists and the threat they pose to our country. One candidate has even said that the global war on terror is nothing but a bumper sticker slogan. It makes the point that I've been making over and over again - that the Democrats, or at least some of them, are in denial.
I promise you that if elected President, I will make sure this country remains on offense against terrorism. But I need your help and support to get there. Will you consider giving $1,000, $500, $250, $100 or $50 to my campaign?
Israel and the United States share common values. We cherish freedom, democracy, and human life [CameronPoe: lol]. Our shared values have attracted common enemies. The terrorists Israel is fighting are the same terrorists America is fighting, and we must continue to fight them together.
Last week Iran's President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, announced that the world would soon witness the destruction of Israel. This 2008 presidential campaign will determine how we deal with statements like these and the madmen who make them.
I stand by Israel and I'll never embrace a terrorist like Arafat, a tyrant like Ahmadinejad, or a party like Hamas.
Will you join me and support my campaign for President so we can continue to work together? Your contribution of $1,000, $500, $250, $100 or $50 will go a long way in helping us to ensure victory.
Please consider signing up for my email list as well. Doing so will keep you up to date on the latest news from my campaign.
A Giuliani administration won't accept business as usual. We will stay strong amidst the threats of tyrants and we will stay on offense against the terrorists.
Sincerely,
Rudy Giuliani
Take a good look at your potential future leader America. Stop this cunt before it's too late. DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS MAN. Forward the details on to all right-minded Americans interested in the political future and well-being of America. I can send the e-mail itself on to anyone who is interested if they provide an address. If you want another Bush, if you want the regard the rest of the world holds you in to further diminsh then vote for him and face the consequences.
Sincerely Rudy Giulani I hope you get hit by a fucking truck next time you cross the fucking road and that the worms vomit your remains they're so repulsed by the bitterness of your carcass.
Sorry dude, but when we support Israel the way we do, and invade 2 countries located in the middle east, whoever gets elected in 2008 affects EVERYONE in the world. Why? Because with rogue states like Iran, if we don't handle the situation in a careful manner, we could be on the brink of another mini-cold war.ghostgr wrote:
We will vote for whom we want as president. Your little temerptantrum isn't going to stop anyone from voting for this man. I am not saying I will but maybe you need to stick your nose out of our politics since you and the rest of the world complain about the U.S. of fucking A. getting into the worlds' affairs even when it does not concern us. Yes I agree we need to mind our own damn business but so does the rest of the world.
If you can make sure the following things happen, I'll shut up:ghostgr wrote:
We will vote for whom we want as president. Your little temerptantrum isn't going to stop anyone from voting for this man. I am not saying I will but maybe you need to stick your nose out of our politics since you and the rest of the world complain about the U.S. of fucking A. getting into the worlds' affairs even when it does not concern us. Yes I agree we need to mind our own damn business but so does the rest of the world.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-13 00:19:38)