oug wrote:
Besides, Israel would never cooperate. They love the fact that Palestinians are divided, and of course the fact that Hamas runs things. It gives them reason to up the aggression.
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
They all know who the extremists of Hamas are and where to find 'em. Israel and Palestine know.san4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that Israel and the anti-Hamas Palestinians get rid of Hamas by defeating them militarily? Don't you think there might be some civilian casualties in such an effort? Maybe they should set up a dozen checkpoints in Gaza? Or are you suggesting some sort of non-violent means? How in the world could they get rid of Hamas without imposing severe burdens on civilians in Gaza?sergeriver wrote:
What Palestine Should Do
We all know that Hamas has done no good for Palestine. In fact they seem to want both Israel and Palestine wiped out of the map.
What should Palestine do under these conditions?
I think it's time for the people of Palestine and Mahmoud Abbas to ask Israel for help. How is that? Well, most Palestinians want peace. While Hamas keeps the hardcore extremist attitude towards Israel, Palestine will have no peace.
If non-Hamas Palestine and Israel work together against these Hamas extremists, they will be able to achieve peace. Can this be done? We'll never know if they don't try.
Hamas with its BS is giving both Israel and Palestine the opportunity to solve this problem by joining forces against them. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's why Palestine should isolate Hamas. They are enemies of Palestine.
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.usmarine2005 wrote:
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
So how do you do both? Support Israel? Give them more weapons and help to take back Gaza?sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.usmarine2005 wrote:
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
No, this time I suggest Israel should work with non-Hamas Palestine. I don't think targetting innocent Palestinians is the solution. Israel should support Abbas government, and not invade Gaza. Help and invasion, sometimes have very different meanings.usmarine2005 wrote:
So how do you do both? Support Israel? Give them more weapons and help to take back Gaza?sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.usmarine2005 wrote:
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
Israel don't need anything from anybody. What they could've done is help out Fatah whilst the fighting was going on. I dunno about now though, all the news stations are saying that Hamas has total control over Gaza.
The more I think about it, the more and more ridiculous this idea appears.sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.usmarine2005 wrote:
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
Any Palestinian organisation who allied themselves with Israel would lose all Palestinian support and be viewed as traitors. As for eliminating Hamas, we are all (or at least should be) well aware that eliminating terrorist groups is virtually impossible, especially when they are being supplied by a foreign government, like Iran.
It just can't work.
The US is in a de facto war with Iran, and we can ignore Lebanon for this discussion.sergeriver wrote:
No, this time I suggest Israel should work with non-Hamas Palestine. I don't think targetting innocent Palestinians is the solution. Israel should support Abbas government, and not invade Gaza. Help and invasion, sometimes have very different meanings.usmarine2005 wrote:
So how do you do both? Support Israel? Give them more weapons and help to take back Gaza?sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.
Perhaps, but what are you saying they should do with these people, assassinate them? How would they avoid civilian casualties? How can you condemn civilian casualties when Israel kills Hamas leaders but what you seem to be advocating would have the same consequence?sergeriver wrote:
They all know who the extremists of Hamas are and where to find 'em. Israel and Palestine know.san4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that Israel and the anti-Hamas Palestinians get rid of Hamas by defeating them militarily? Don't you think there might be some civilian casualties in such an effort? Maybe they should set up a dozen checkpoints in Gaza? Or are you suggesting some sort of non-violent means? How in the world could they get rid of Hamas without imposing severe burdens on civilians in Gaza?sergeriver wrote:
What Palestine Should Do
We all know that Hamas has done no good for Palestine. In fact they seem to want both Israel and Palestine wiped out of the map.
What should Palestine do under these conditions?
I think it's time for the people of Palestine and Mahmoud Abbas to ask Israel for help. How is that? Well, most Palestinians want peace. While Hamas keeps the hardcore extremist attitude towards Israel, Palestine will have no peace.
If non-Hamas Palestine and Israel work together against these Hamas extremists, they will be able to achieve peace. Can this be done? We'll never know if they don't try.
Hamas with its BS is giving both Israel and Palestine the opportunity to solve this problem by joining forces against them. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's why Palestine should isolate Hamas. They are enemies of Palestine.
Precisely and probably even more severe reprecussions.san4 wrote:
Perhaps, but what are you saying they should do with these people, assassinate them? How would they avoid civilian casualties? How can you condemn civilian casualties when Israel kills Hamas leaders but what you seem to be advocating would have the same consequence?sergeriver wrote:
They all know who the extremists of Hamas are and where to find 'em. Israel and Palestine know.san4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that Israel and the anti-Hamas Palestinians get rid of Hamas by defeating them militarily? Don't you think there might be some civilian casualties in such an effort? Maybe they should set up a dozen checkpoints in Gaza? Or are you suggesting some sort of non-violent means? How in the world could they get rid of Hamas without imposing severe burdens on civilians in Gaza?
All it would achieve is making more extremist terror groups in Palestine (which would probably be much worse than Hamas) and the Palestinian refugee camps. It would set back any potential progress towards peace immensely.
If Fatah were in control of the Palestinian territories, they would be in a decent position for making peace with Israel.
The best thing I could potentially see happening as a result of the civil war there is that Gaza could become Hamas controlled and the West Bank could become Fatah controlled. If Fatah made peace with Israel on favourable terms covering only the West Bank and extending the borders of the West Bank territories - this may lead to the more moderate elements in Gaza overthrowing Hamas and reaching a settlement with Israel.
Seems strange to seek peace through civil war and the further division of an already divided nation, but I reckon it could work, in principle.
How easy would it be for a Palestinian to move from Gaza to the West Bank? Technically they're the same country, i'm guessing there isn't an airport in both places so does Israel allow them to move between the two?
It's like two places, i don't fully understand the scenario.
It's like two places, i don't fully understand the scenario.
It's not very easy.Mekstizzle wrote:
How easy would it be for a Palestinian to move from Gaza to the West Bank? Technically they're the same country, i'm guessing there isn't an airport in both places so does Israel allow them to move between the two?
It's like two places, i don't fully understand the scenario.
As you can see, they are on opposite sides of Israel and there is no connection between the two. Israel does not allow movement between the two, or at the very least severely restricts it.
If the US can hit specific targets with minimum or no civilian casualties, then Israel can do the same. The problem is they don't care. My idea doesn't imply killing civilians. You use commandos and get rid of the right people.san4 wrote:
Perhaps, but what are you saying they should do with these people, assassinate them? How would they avoid civilian casualties? How can you condemn civilian casualties when Israel kills Hamas leaders but what you seem to be advocating would have the same consequence?sergeriver wrote:
They all know who the extremists of Hamas are and where to find 'em. Israel and Palestine know.san4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that Israel and the anti-Hamas Palestinians get rid of Hamas by defeating them militarily? Don't you think there might be some civilian casualties in such an effort? Maybe they should set up a dozen checkpoints in Gaza? Or are you suggesting some sort of non-violent means? How in the world could they get rid of Hamas without imposing severe burdens on civilians in Gaza?
It's just an idea. The current situation doesn't seem to work for them. If they don't get along with Israel they are screwed.Bertster7 wrote:
The more I think about it, the more and more ridiculous this idea appears.sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.usmarine2005 wrote:
Can't get rid of Hamas until you get Iran to stop supplying them.
Any Palestinian organisation who allied themselves with Israel would lose all Palestinian support and be viewed as traitors. As for eliminating Hamas, we are all (or at least should be) well aware that eliminating terrorist groups is virtually impossible, especially when they are being supplied by a foreign government, like Iran.
It just can't work.
I can see where you're coming from with it. But after thinking about it, I can't see it succeeding.sergeriver wrote:
It's just an idea. The current situation doesn't seem to work for them. If they don't get along with Israel they are screwed.Bertster7 wrote:
The more I think about it, the more and more ridiculous this idea appears.sergeriver wrote:
You can get Iran to stop supplying Hamas, by eliminating Hamas. If there's no Hamas, you have nobody to supply.
Any Palestinian organisation who allied themselves with Israel would lose all Palestinian support and be viewed as traitors. As for eliminating Hamas, we are all (or at least should be) well aware that eliminating terrorist groups is virtually impossible, especially when they are being supplied by a foreign government, like Iran.
It just can't work.
Its quite funny that you propose that Israel ally with peaceful Palestinians to fight Hamas and this is okay. Don't get me wrong, I totally AGREE but this is the strategy being used in many other places as well. In Iraq, the U.S. is cooperating with factions there to fight the Islamic extremist by supplying them as well. Its happening pretty much anywhere where Islamic extremist are trying to take root. Just take a look around and you will see strange bed fellows everywhere.
I see a lot of criticism when other countries do the same thing but now its the answer to the Palestinian problem. If you look at history, there are countless alliances with your "enemy" to fight a greater evil. This is no different and it will be no different in the future. The bottom line for me is that the world as a whole needs to unite against the radicals of our day, where ever they try to take hold, if not, the problem is going to get worse and more and more innocence will die. For once I agree with you serge...don't get me wrong, but in some of the past threads here, this type of strategy has been condemned.
I see a lot of criticism when other countries do the same thing but now its the answer to the Palestinian problem. If you look at history, there are countless alliances with your "enemy" to fight a greater evil. This is no different and it will be no different in the future. The bottom line for me is that the world as a whole needs to unite against the radicals of our day, where ever they try to take hold, if not, the problem is going to get worse and more and more innocence will die. For once I agree with you serge...don't get me wrong, but in some of the past threads here, this type of strategy has been condemned.
Do you support the death penalty? Imposed without a trial and conviction?sergeriver wrote:
If the US can hit specific targets with minimum or no civilian casualties, then Israel can do the same. The problem is they don't care. My idea doesn't imply killing civilians. You use commandos and get rid of the right people.san4 wrote:
Perhaps, but what are you saying they should do with these people, assassinate them? How would they avoid civilian casualties? How can you condemn civilian casualties when Israel kills Hamas leaders but what you seem to be advocating would have the same consequence?sergeriver wrote:
They all know who the extremists of Hamas are and where to find 'em. Israel and Palestine know.
Hamas is rounding up Fatah in Gaza
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a … p;ito=1490
Fatah is rounding up Hamas in the West Bank.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? … 1813038998
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/15/ … remmer.php
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a … p;ito=1490
Fatah is rounding up Hamas in the West Bank.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? … 1813038998
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/15/ … remmer.php
It’s hard to believe Arafat’s party would be the first to abandon the dream of Palestinian statehood, which of course was never really Arafat’s dream but to which he paid enough lip service as to ensure plenty of resistance to any change of course. The question is, what happens to Gaza? The author of the IHT piece suggests it might be absorbed by Egypt but the last thing Mubarak wants, given the pressure he’s under from Islamists in Cairo, is responsibility for two million Hamas zombies. The likelier result is that it would stay sui generis, with the whole “peace process” nightmare of the last several decades playing itself out in Gaza. Except this time, every time things got hairy between Israel and Hamas, Jordan would be at risk for an uprising among its own confederated Palestinian population whose “passions” would be inflamed by the suffering being experienced by their brothers etc etc etc.Debate has begun in Palestinian and Jordanian newspapers - and in official circles on both sides of the Jordan river - over a plan to incorporate West Bank Palestinians into a confederation with Jordan, creating a kind of bi-national state with two governing assemblies…
First, an increasing number of Palestinian officials appear willing to concede that deterioration of conditions in the occupied territories ensures that a two-state solution may no longer be viable. In addition, the violent internal power struggle between Fatah and Hamas has created profound insecurity among West Bank Palestinians. As a result, even a plan that would effectively end the dream of Palestine in all but name garnered 30 percent support in a recent poll conducted by the Near East Counseling Institution in Ramallah.
Second, Palestinians see Jordan’s relative stability and affluence. They don’t trust their own leaders to provide either and fear that it’s the Israelis who will continue to dictate their future. That’s why dozens of Palestinian business leaders, elected officials, and opinion-makers accepted King Abdullah’s invitation to join Jordanians and Israelis in Aqaba last month to discuss peace plans for the region - and why confederation reportedly figured prominently in their discussion.
As for the Jordanians, former Prime Minister Abdel Salam Al Majali now argues that confederation would solve one of the kingdom’s most pressing internal problems: A majority of Jordanians are of Palestinian descent, a fact that often draws Jordan into the maelstrom of Palestinian politics. The new state would feature two legislative assemblies. The first, based in the West Bank, would represent all Palestinians - including those who already live inside Jordan and hold Jordanian citizenship. The country’s current assembly would be reserved for East Bank Jordanians, members of tribes which generally support the monarchy.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Amen!!sergeriver wrote:
Lol. But seriously, I think moderate Palestine should ally with Israel to fight Hamas radicals. After cleaning Palestine (in the good way) they will be able to negotiate a two states solution.Bertster7 wrote:
They could roll over and submit to rightful Israeli dominance.sergeriver wrote:
What other options has Palestine?
The west bank seems much bigger than than Gaza anyway, i mean shit no beaches but at least the Moderates seem to be controlling the place. I feel sorry for the guys stuck in Gaza with those loonies in charge now.
Seeing as Gaza's one big strip, CB it. But that probably wouldn't sit too well with people so it probably wouldn't be a good idea.
No, go get them, if they refuse to go, then kill them.san4 wrote:
Do you support the death penalty? Imposed without a trial and conviction?sergeriver wrote:
If the US can hit specific targets with minimum or no civilian casualties, then Israel can do the same. The problem is they don't care. My idea doesn't imply killing civilians. You use commandos and get rid of the right people.san4 wrote:
Perhaps, but what are you saying they should do with these people, assassinate them? How would they avoid civilian casualties? How can you condemn civilian casualties when Israel kills Hamas leaders but what you seem to be advocating would have the same consequence?
I have no military or law enforcement experience, but I am certain that it is not possible to apprehend heavily armed radicals in a crowded city without civilian casualties. What if they fight back with grenades, assault rifles and a dozen fighters? You are naive to believe that Israel's lack of concern is the only reason civilians die in Israeli "targeted killings". If you support "taking out" Hamas leaders, you must accept civilian casualties.sergeriver wrote:
No, go get them, if they refuse to go, then kill them.san4 wrote:
Do you support the death penalty? Imposed without a trial and conviction?sergeriver wrote:
If the US can hit specific targets with minimum or no civilian casualties, then Israel can do the same. The problem is they don't care. My idea doesn't imply killing civilians. You use commandos and get rid of the right people.
You are struggling with exactly the same issue Israel has struggled with, and you seem to be coming out with the same position Israel takes.
Good, but futile point. We've explained this to sergeriver before...many times.san4 wrote:
I have no military or law enforcement experience, but I am certain that it is not possible to apprehend heavily armed radicals in a crowded city without civilian casualties. What if they fight back with grenades, assault rifles and a dozen fighters? You are naive to believe that Israel's lack of concern is the only reason civilians die in Israeli "targeted killings". If you support "taking out" Hamas leaders, you must accept civilian casualties.sergeriver wrote:
No, go get them, if they refuse to go, then kill them.san4 wrote:
Do you support the death penalty? Imposed without a trial and conviction?
You are struggling with exactly the same issue Israel has struggled with, and you seem to be coming out with the same position Israel takes.
He thinks Israel is funding these terrorists just so they have an excuse to go in and kill civilians:
Just letting you know what you're dealing with, san4.sergeriver wrote:
I think they are very comfortable with the situation, that's what I'm saying.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
So now you think Israel is funding Hamas?sergeriver wrote:
What if Israel is funding Hamas? That would give them the excuse.
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-06-18 16:30:57)