Why is it that in Europe the Palestinians are seen largely as the good guys and that in the US Israelis are seen largely as the good guys?
Because there are a ton of Jews in America. There are more in New York than anywhere else in the world...out side of Israel of course.
Oy vey! Too many Zionists here....
I can't say that I think either group is the "good guys." Fuck 'em both...
I can't say that I think either group is the "good guys." Fuck 'em both...
In my humble opinion I think it may have something to do with Europeans having had more ties (geographical, social, historical, religious) with the Islamic culture and countries, whereas in the united states we have been pretty isolated from those same areas of familiarity to Islamic countries.
The fact that a majority of American media is largly controlled by people of the Jewish faith may have something to do with the overall American perception of Israel as the "Good Guys" if you know what I mean, conversely most Americans have have had a slathering of anti-islamic news, television, printed media, for us it is easier to side with Israel if you follow my line of thinking.
Just a quick thought on the question.
The fact that a majority of American media is largly controlled by people of the Jewish faith may have something to do with the overall American perception of Israel as the "Good Guys" if you know what I mean, conversely most Americans have have had a slathering of anti-islamic news, television, printed media, for us it is easier to side with Israel if you follow my line of thinking.
Just a quick thought on the question.
Well, personally, I don't see it that way. There are problems with both. The Palestinian people in general have a right to seek a state of their own, the problem is that elements like Hamas give the overall fight a bad name. If they would clean up their own house and try to do the right thing, then I feel that more and more people would support their cause. Shooting random missiles and killing innocence, blowing yourself up and killing more innocence will not make you look good.
On the other hand, Israel feels forced to be heavy handed and try to protect its people too. Building new settlements is the wrong thing to do but when you compare building settlements to blowing up yourself in a market....you naturally would look at one worse than the other. Yes, the Israeli army has killed innocent bystanders, but if Israel really didn't care about collateral damage, they would be killing a hell of a lot more people and wouldn't used high priced, pin point weapons, just carpet bomb and move more Israelis in....but it doesn't happen that way.
America does support Israel more because a lot of Americans have family, relatives connected to Israel. Israel is a powerful ally in the Middle East whether you or anyone else likes it or not. But, i think most Americans see the radical nature of Hamas and similar groups and don't understand why they cant even get along with themselves and thus support the people seen as doing the better things. If Palestinians got their act together, helped stop the endless circle of violence, then I, personally, would support their cause a little more. Israel also has the right to defend itself and I do believe that they have shown great restraint over the years. They could easily end it all right now...but continue to try to work it out, deal after deal after failed deal.
Palestinians: Have a real issue, legit cause for statehood: Cant get along with each other, cant stop the circle of violence, use radical tactics that the rest of the world sees as barbaric and have let radical Islam kidnap their cause in the West Bank, Gaza and even in Lebanon.
Israel: Constantly attacked by radicals, threatened by neighbors, They also continue the circle of violence, but they generally aim their attacks at radicals, leaders of Hamas and elements bent on Israel's destruction. Bystanders do get killed sometimes but their bombings are not purposely aimed at markets and innocent people going about their daily business.
I think most Americans sway towards Israel because of direct historic connections and because Palestinians do not help sway public perception by their constant in-fighting, radical tactics, bombings and radical Islam Americans have grown to despise over the years. I believe each should have their own state but I doubt I will ever see it in my life time.
On the other hand, Israel feels forced to be heavy handed and try to protect its people too. Building new settlements is the wrong thing to do but when you compare building settlements to blowing up yourself in a market....you naturally would look at one worse than the other. Yes, the Israeli army has killed innocent bystanders, but if Israel really didn't care about collateral damage, they would be killing a hell of a lot more people and wouldn't used high priced, pin point weapons, just carpet bomb and move more Israelis in....but it doesn't happen that way.
America does support Israel more because a lot of Americans have family, relatives connected to Israel. Israel is a powerful ally in the Middle East whether you or anyone else likes it or not. But, i think most Americans see the radical nature of Hamas and similar groups and don't understand why they cant even get along with themselves and thus support the people seen as doing the better things. If Palestinians got their act together, helped stop the endless circle of violence, then I, personally, would support their cause a little more. Israel also has the right to defend itself and I do believe that they have shown great restraint over the years. They could easily end it all right now...but continue to try to work it out, deal after deal after failed deal.
Palestinians: Have a real issue, legit cause for statehood: Cant get along with each other, cant stop the circle of violence, use radical tactics that the rest of the world sees as barbaric and have let radical Islam kidnap their cause in the West Bank, Gaza and even in Lebanon.
Israel: Constantly attacked by radicals, threatened by neighbors, They also continue the circle of violence, but they generally aim their attacks at radicals, leaders of Hamas and elements bent on Israel's destruction. Bystanders do get killed sometimes but their bombings are not purposely aimed at markets and innocent people going about their daily business.
I think most Americans sway towards Israel because of direct historic connections and because Palestinians do not help sway public perception by their constant in-fighting, radical tactics, bombings and radical Islam Americans have grown to despise over the years. I believe each should have their own state but I doubt I will ever see it in my life time.
We have all heard the US being called the 'melting pot' of cultures. I see Jewish culture having an easier time adjusting and integrating into the cultural mainstream here in the US. What i also see is some cultures (not just islamic) refusing to integrate and effectively building walls between themselves and their communities by being exclusionary. I suspect that some people find this behavior suspicious in the US. Not to mention that Jews aren't attacking the US with planes, suicide bombers, etc.
As was mentioned above, for sure i suspect that people also find palestinians blowing themselves up as abhorrent and indeed find that israel's response to be heavy handed at the same time. However, the 'barbarian' nature of terrorism is probably what sways people to side with Israel.
Plus, Israeli women are hotter.
As was mentioned above, for sure i suspect that people also find palestinians blowing themselves up as abhorrent and indeed find that israel's response to be heavy handed at the same time. However, the 'barbarian' nature of terrorism is probably what sways people to side with Israel.
Plus, Israeli women are hotter.
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
Why were Jews expelled from England, France, Spain, Portugal and parts of Russia, but never from the U.S.?CameronPoe wrote:
Why is it that in Europe the Palestinians are seen largely as the good guys and that in the US Israelis are seen largely as the good guys?
I know you addressed this to Cam but i believe the reason is that Salman Rushdie recently was knighted. He wrote the book Satanic Versus which purportedly slanders Islam. Iran had a fatwa for a hit on him for most of the 1990s. Anyway, there are protests all over including (surpise) Pakistan.usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen … 951462.ece
Ahh yes...I heard something about that today. Thank you.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
I know you addressed this to Cam but i believe the reason is that Salman Rushdie recently was knighted. He wrote the book Satanic Versus which purportedly slanders Islam. Iran had a fatwa for a hit on him for most of the 1990s. Anyway, there are protests all over including (surpise) Pakistan.usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen … 951462.ece
Then I guess the clips I saw wasn't in Gaza but in Pakistan? or both? It was on CNN at work and I got distracted for a moment, so I was not sure.
Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-19 19:27:09)
true, Europe has a long history of anti-semitism, while America has been relatively tolerant (don't go giving me a history lesson). I think Europeans view Israel as an imperialsit nation that causes more trouble than it's worth.san4 wrote:
Why were Jews expelled from England, France, Spain, Portugal and parts of Russia, but never from the U.S.?CameronPoe wrote:
Why is it that in Europe the Palestinians are seen largely as the good guys and that in the US Israelis are seen largely as the good guys?
BTW, the palestinians can't stop killing eachother long enough to kill the jews anyway. (and yes, the flag burning is in response to protest the knighting)
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
The UK was, like many other European countries( Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands) involved in colonizing, well most of the globe. This included the Palestinian area. Palestine was a British colony. After the second world war, many colonizing nations were to give up on their colonies, due to pressure from the USA(not getting any Marshall aid to rebuild the ruin that was Europe).
However at the same time radical Jews were !suicide!bomb attacking UK presence there.As they wanted the creation of their Jewish state. The Palestinians of course opposed to this, but they had zero influence as they were still a colony of the UK. Of course we all know the Israeli got their state and the Palestinians were driven out. Guess I would be burning British flags if I were in their position.
Oh, now. Be fair.Corpy wrote:
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
The UK was, like many other European countries( Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands) involved in colonizing, well most of the globe. This included the Palestinian area. Palestine was a British colony. After the second world war, many colonizing nations were to give up on their colonies, due to pressure from the USA(not getting any Marshall aid to rebuild the ruin that was Europe).
However at the same time radical Jews were !suicide!bomb attacking UK presence there.As they wanted the creation of their Jewish state. The Palestinians of course opposed to this, but they had zero influence as they were still a colony of the UK. Of course we all know the Israeli got their state and the Palestinians were driven out. Guess I would be burning British flags if I were in their position.
I don't know a single person who ever DID manage to stay awake during history. Listening to a old man ramble on about marijuana for the 10th lesson in a row (which, coincidentally, is the SAME ramble he gave the lesson before... and the lesson before that... and before that) does have a sedative affect.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Different opinions.
noice 
This was answered by others but another important reason would be the fact that the UK facilitated the Zionists in creating their state in Palestine. Look up the Balfour Declaration. It was quite funny when I was asked by a Palestinian in Abu Dis when I was there whether I was 'from the good part of Ireland or the bad part'...usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-20 04:15:22)
Unlucky you.Spark wrote:
Oh, now. Be fair.Corpy wrote:
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?usmarine2005 wrote:
One question I have for you Cam. I saw a group of protesters in Gaza holding up a sign that said "down with the UK," and some of them burning a horrible rendition of the British flag. Why is that? I really do not know TBH. I would expect an American flag of course, but where does the UK stuff come from?
The UK was, like many other European countries( Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands) involved in colonizing, well most of the globe. This included the Palestinian area. Palestine was a British colony. After the second world war, many colonizing nations were to give up on their colonies, due to pressure from the USA(not getting any Marshall aid to rebuild the ruin that was Europe).
However at the same time radical Jews were !suicide!bomb attacking UK presence there.As they wanted the creation of their Jewish state. The Palestinians of course opposed to this, but they had zero influence as they were still a colony of the UK. Of course we all know the Israeli got their state and the Palestinians were driven out. Guess I would be burning British flags if I were in their position.
I don't know a single person who ever DID manage to stay awake during history. Listening to a old man ramble on about marijuana for the 10th lesson in a row (which, coincidentally, is the SAME ramble he gave the lesson before... and the lesson before that... and before that) does have a sedative affect.
My history teacher is a well traveled, well read and very informed Leninist. Passionate about a few things, including literature and the subjects she teaches in history (she also teaches English Literature/studies). She's taking a select group of her students over to Europe for a school trip next week (including me) from remote Aus. We'll be spending most of our time on Western Front battlefields of WW1 but also some time in London and Normandy.
Sucks to be Spark I guess.
Last edited by Flecco (2007-06-20 04:11:17)
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
At least that was last year.Flecco wrote:
Unlucky you.Spark wrote:
Oh, now. Be fair.Corpy wrote:
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?
The UK was, like many other European countries( Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands) involved in colonizing, well most of the globe. This included the Palestinian area. Palestine was a British colony. After the second world war, many colonizing nations were to give up on their colonies, due to pressure from the USA(not getting any Marshall aid to rebuild the ruin that was Europe).
However at the same time radical Jews were !suicide!bomb attacking UK presence there.As they wanted the creation of their Jewish state. The Palestinians of course opposed to this, but they had zero influence as they were still a colony of the UK. Of course we all know the Israeli got their state and the Palestinians were driven out. Guess I would be burning British flags if I were in their position.
I don't know a single person who ever DID manage to stay awake during history. Listening to a old man ramble on about marijuana for the 10th lesson in a row (which, coincidentally, is the SAME ramble he gave the lesson before... and the lesson before that... and before that) does have a sedative affect.
My history teacher is a well traveled, well read and very informed Leninist. Passionate about a few things, including literature and the subjects she teaches in history (she also teaches English Literature/studies). She's taking a select group of her students over to Europe for a school trip next week (including me) from remote Aus. We'll be spending most of our time on Western Front battlefields of WW1 but also some time in London and Normandy.
Sucks to be Spark I guess.
This year we have someone who delights in setting inclass essays every second week.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
The Israeli Lobby.CameronPoe wrote:
Why is it that in Europe the Palestinians are seen largely as the good guys and that in the US Israelis are seen largely as the good guys?
ƒ³
MY opinion for why AMerica supports the Israelis is that they provide a good buffer against Iran in that area of the world. They are useful to the Americans as they help keep Iran under control and stop them dominating the middle east completely
Israel is the main reason half the Middle East's people hate the USA...adam1503 wrote:
MY opinion for why AMerica supports the Israelis is that they provide a good buffer against Iran in that area of the world. They are useful to the Americans as they help keep Iran under control and stop them dominating the middle east completely
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Unfortunately I have to stay in Europe for a while and I can tell you that not everybody sees the Palestinians as the Good Guys.For me personally the Israelis are the Good Guys down there and I know a lot of people also supporting that meaning. Generally for Europe the Israelis are the Good Guys because they are dependent on the USA and are supporting it. So, they indirectly have to be for the Israelis.
All in all I don't agree with your statement Europe sees the Palestinians as the Good Guys although there are both a lot of proponents of both sides but I think the pro-Israeli side prevails.
All in all I don't agree with your statement Europe sees the Palestinians as the Good Guys although there are both a lot of proponents of both sides but I think the pro-Israeli side prevails.
I dont see either as good. Both Governments are wrong in terms of military choices. The people, meh couldnt really give a shit.
Films like this don't help the image of Muslims and Arabs in the US...
EDIT: This movie was a US/Israeli production. Shot mostly in Israel and directed by an Israeli Jew called Menahem Golan. The tagline is 'They don't negotiate with terrorists... they blow them away!'. Pure propaganda like this being slipped into mainstream action cinema has a drip drip effect on brainless idiots who gobble up this kind of shitty movie and contributes to the negative perception of non-Jews in the Middle East by people who don't really anything about the region.
EDIT: This movie was a US/Israeli production. Shot mostly in Israel and directed by an Israeli Jew called Menahem Golan. The tagline is 'They don't negotiate with terrorists... they blow them away!'. Pure propaganda like this being slipped into mainstream action cinema has a drip drip effect on brainless idiots who gobble up this kind of shitty movie and contributes to the negative perception of non-Jews in the Middle East by people who don't really anything about the region.
Last edited by Braddock (2007-06-20 07:26:37)
No. I was going over football plays in my head, or trying to look up chicks skirts tbh. (went to catholic school, awesome girls uniforms)Corpy wrote:
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?
I always pictured you as a bit of a WASP! I mean that in the nicest possible wayusmarine2005 wrote:
No. I was going over football plays in my head, or trying to look up chicks skirts tbh. (went to catholic school, awesome girls uniforms)Corpy wrote:
Don't take this personal but did you EVER manage to stay awake during history class?