BF2S Forums The West and the Arab World

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

Anyways, I know you're upset that we have it so good over here.

But not quite so good as we have it here in Ireland...

too_money2007 wrote:

It's not my fault the middle east, and other 3rd world countries, haven't done anything in their history to make their lives better.

Wow. I never realised that! You learn something new everyday. I never realised stating the obvious could be so enlightening.

too_money2007 wrote:

They'd rather squabble over land rights in a conflict that is older than Jesus riding a dinosaur, than to just shut the fuck up and move on with their lives.

You're kind of exposing your ignorance of what is actually the issue in Palestine. It's a territorial dispute - land theft - not a religious dispute. It just so happens that the main protagonists can be characterised as either muslim or jewish.

too_money2007 wrote:

But, I can't blame them. Their parents brainwashed them into believing in some kind of God, which makes them insane. But, their parents aren't to blame, as each generation has done the same.

Try reading about the history of Palestine, 1900 to 1948. Then get back to me.

too_money2007 wrote:

Cam, I know you think you're a fking god here or something, but get a clue.

Given that I don't believe in the existence of a higher being I find it rather odd that you would suggest I thought of myself as a deity.

too_money2007 wrote:

Sit at your desk for the electric company and provide power to the masses, as that's all you're good for, other than inciting shit on a video gam
e forum, trying to impress 12 year olds with your stupid logic.

So what are you doing then?

too_money2007 wrote:

"I travel to other countries a lot, take lots of pictures to show people, so that makes me COOL!!" -CameronPoe (direct quote... it's out there).

Wow. I can make up quotes too. "I wish my mother would stop changing her lipstick, my dick's like a rainbow." -too_money2007 (direct quote... it's out there).

Thank you for proving my point that you HAVE to be right every time. You care entirely too much about the opinions of people on these forums. Also, do I detect a bit of anti-semitism? Yeah, I think you hate the Jews too, eh?

Last edited by too_money2007 (2007-06-26 13:06:34)

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

They'd rather squabble over land rights in a conflict that is older than Jesus riding a dinosaur, than to just shut the fuck up and move on with their lives.

You're kind of exposing your ignorance of what is actually the issue in Palestine. It's a territorial dispute - land theft - not a religious dispute. It just so happens that the main protagonists can be characterised as either muslim or jewish.

So in this context, we can extend your argument to all conflicts that resulted in the winning side gaining territory as 'land theft'?  Europe is chock full of these kinds of things, no?  Why aren't there more conflicts like this in Europe by Europeans?  Why aren't the American Indian tribes hoarding arms and killing people in shopping malls?

There's a difference.  Palestine is the biggest concentration camp in the whole world.

sergeriver wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

You're kind of exposing your ignorance of what is actually the issue in Palestine. It's a territorial dispute - land theft - not a religious dispute. It just so happens that the main protagonists can be characterised as either muslim or jewish.

So in this context, we can extend your argument to all conflicts that resulted in the winning side gaining territory as 'land theft'?  Europe is chock full of these kinds of things, no?  Why aren't there more conflicts like this in Europe by Europeans?  Why aren't the American Indian tribes hoarding arms and killing people in shopping malls?

There's a difference.  Palestine is the biggest concentration camp in the whole world.

There is not a difference, its a difference in your eyes, but in context....there isn't a difference. When Israel was attacked and it won the war(militarily), it had the right to keep what it gained as has so many other countries through out history. Is that always right...of course not but that is history and we have to learn from that. Now, of course you will say that Israel was there illegally in the first place. Whether we like it or not, Israel is a country, it is recognized by the rest of the world (majority of) as a legitimate country and that isn't going to change, At the end of the war with its Arab/ Persian neighbors. Israel DID give land back but did keep some of it and since then has gained and gave back land. Also, Israel is not the first country to have to deal with the Palestinians. Jordan has expelled Palestinians from its land and currently has a large population as well, of course in camps similar to what they have around Israel...so is Jordan also in possession of "concentration camps"? There are camps in Lebanon...so is the Lebanese government also running "concentration camps"?

Lebanon has a Palestinian issue too, a very serious one...look at what is going on there...its no different than in Israel. The problem is that terrorists and radicals HIJACK the true Palestinian cause and pervert it for their own cause. On one hand you have true Palestinians fighting for statehood (which they should have) but on the other hand, radicals are ready to use this situation to kill and attack a country they want to totally destroy. No matter where the Palestinians live, their cause will be hijacked. That is what the radicals always do. Find a weak government or people and infiltrate to keep it unstable, then use the innocent for their cause and protection. Its happening in many places outside of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict. Just look around. CURRENTLY, the root of the problem IS the radicals and will be for a long time to come.

Let's say that Israel gives in and puts the borders back to what they were in the original agreements....Do ANY of you really think it would end there. Of course not!!!!!! This conflict is bigger than that. Whatever Israel concedes will never be enough for the radicals and Israel will still be bombed, attacked with missiles and suicide attacks. People need to look at the big picture. No matter what Israel does in an effort to make a 2 state situation with the Palestinians, the fact remains that Israel will still be under attack by elements under the Palestinian flag or whatever group the terrorists can hijack for their cause and that cause is to wipe Israel off the map completely. This thread about Hamas or Fatah is really kind of a lost cause because in the end it doesn't matter who is in power, the Palestinian people will be used regardless. Whether blatantly by Hamas or undercover under Fatah's nose. Israel is and always will be the target.

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-06-26 14:12:00)

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

So in this context, we can extend your argument to all conflicts that resulted in the winning side gaining territory as 'land theft'?  Europe is chock full of these kinds of things, no?  Why aren't there more conflicts like this in Europe by Europeans?  Why aren't the American Indian tribes hoarding arms and killing people in shopping malls?

There's a difference.  Palestine is the biggest concentration camp in the whole world.

There is not a difference, its a difference in your eyes, but in context....there isn't a difference. When Israel was attacked and it won the war(militarily), it had the right to keep what it gained as has so many other countries through out history. Is that always right...of course not but that is history and we have to learn from that. Now, of course you will say that Israel was there illegally in the first place. Whether we like it or not, Israel is a country, it is recognized by the rest of the world (majority of) as a legitimate country and that isn't going to change, At the end of the war with its Arab/ Persian neighbors. Israel DID give land back but did keep some of it and since then has gained and gave back land. Also, Israel is not the first country to have to deal with the Palestinians. Jordan has expelled Palestinians from its land and currently has a large population as well, of course in camps similar to what they have around Israel...so is Jordan also in possession of "concentration camps"? There are camps in Lebanon...so is the Lebanese government also running "concentration camps"?

Lebanon has a Palestinian issue too, a very serious one...look at what is going on there...its no different than in Israel. The problem is that terrorists and radicals HIJACK the true Palestinian cause and pervert it for their own cause. On one hand you have true Palestinians fighting for statehood (which they should have) but on the other hand, radicals are ready to use this situation to kill and attack a country they want to totally destroy. No matter where the Palestinians live, their cause will be hijacked. That is what the radicals always do. Find a weak government or people and infiltrate to keep it unstable, then use the innocent for their cause and protection. Its happening in many places outside of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict. Just look around. CURRENTLY, the root of the problem IS the radicals and will be for a long time to come.

Let's say that Israel gives in and puts the borders back to what they were in the original agreements....Do ANY of you really think it would end there. Of course not!!!!!! This conflict is bigger than that. Whatever Israel concedes will never be enough for the radicals and Israel will still be bombed, attacked with missiles and suicide attacks. People need to look at the big picture. No matter what Israel does in an effort to make a 2 state situation with the Palestinians, the fact remains that Israel will still be under attack by elements under the Palestinian flag or whatever group the terrorists can hijack for their cause and that cause is to wipe Israel off the map completely. This thread about Hamas or Fatah is really kind of a lost cause because in the end it doesn't matter who is in power, the Palestinian people will be used regardless. Whether blatantly by Hamas or undercover under Fatah's nose. Israel is and always will be the target.

The whole Palestine is a big concentration camp.

sergeriver wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

You're kind of exposing your ignorance of what is actually the issue in Palestine. It's a territorial dispute - land theft - not a religious dispute. It just so happens that the main protagonists can be characterised as either muslim or jewish.

So in this context, we can extend your argument to all conflicts that resulted in the winning side gaining territory as 'land theft'?  Europe is chock full of these kinds of things, no?  Why aren't there more conflicts like this in Europe by Europeans?  Why aren't the American Indian tribes hoarding arms and killing people in shopping malls?

There's a difference.  Palestine is the biggest concentration camp in the whole world.

is there a way to have these people in the 'concentration camps' become citizens of the home country?

why are there palestinians in 'concentration camps' and yet i see palestinians living quite well as Israeli citizens inside of Israel?

why are the countries (let's say other than israel) that also have these concentration camps (i cite Lebanon and Jordan), not absorbing these peoples into their own country as citizens? 

for those that believe that Israel does not deserve to exist, please suggest alternatives on where you think those people should go.  Please also suggest what should happen when Palestinians return to their homeland?

i see people long on bit*hing but short on actual solutions or even debate on solutions.

anyone care to debate on possible solutions?  relocating the jews to US or somewhere?  how will the two state solution come about?  citizenship for palestinians in these 'camps'?  any crazy ideas?

sergeriver wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

There's a difference.  Palestine is the biggest concentration camp in the whole world.

There is not a difference, its a difference in your eyes, but in context....there isn't a difference. When Israel was attacked and it won the war(militarily), it had the right to keep what it gained as has so many other countries through out history. Is that always right...of course not but that is history and we have to learn from that. Now, of course you will say that Israel was there illegally in the first place. Whether we like it or not, Israel is a country, it is recognized by the rest of the world (majority of) as a legitimate country and that isn't going to change, At the end of the war with its Arab/ Persian neighbors. Israel DID give land back but did keep some of it and since then has gained and gave back land. Also, Israel is not the first country to have to deal with the Palestinians. Jordan has expelled Palestinians from its land and currently has a large population as well, of course in camps similar to what they have around Israel...so is Jordan also in possession of "concentration camps"? There are camps in Lebanon...so is the Lebanese government also running "concentration camps"?

Lebanon has a Palestinian issue too, a very serious one...look at what is going on there...its no different than in Israel. The problem is that terrorists and radicals HIJACK the true Palestinian cause and pervert it for their own cause. On one hand you have true Palestinians fighting for statehood (which they should have) but on the other hand, radicals are ready to use this situation to kill and attack a country they want to totally destroy. No matter where the Palestinians live, their cause will be hijacked. That is what the radicals always do. Find a weak government or people and infiltrate to keep it unstable, then use the innocent for their cause and protection. Its happening in many places outside of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict. Just look around. CURRENTLY, the root of the problem IS the radicals and will be for a long time to come.

Let's say that Israel gives in and puts the borders back to what they were in the original agreements....Do ANY of you really think it would end there. Of course not!!!!!! This conflict is bigger than that. Whatever Israel concedes will never be enough for the radicals and Israel will still be bombed, attacked with missiles and suicide attacks. People need to look at the big picture. No matter what Israel does in an effort to make a 2 state situation with the Palestinians, the fact remains that Israel will still be under attack by elements under the Palestinian flag or whatever group the terrorists can hijack for their cause and that cause is to wipe Israel off the map completely. This thread about Hamas or Fatah is really kind of a lost cause because in the end it doesn't matter who is in power, the Palestinian people will be used regardless. Whether blatantly by Hamas or undercover under Fatah's nose. Israel is and always will be the target.

The whole Palestine is a big concentration camp.

Honestly, its quite offensive to compare the palestinian situation to concentration camps....I'm not a jew, but I think most jew would find the use of your comparison offensive. Using those words as you have does disservice to every person who died or lost family in an actual concentration camp. The situation if more like an occupation, but only to a point. You have many cultures, religions believing they have this or that right to that land. You have a history of christians building on top of Islam, Islam building on top of Christian over and over in the same small piece of dirt.  You nor I will never change that. Its a battle over thousands of years and probably a thousand years from now. But calling it a concentration camp really goes tooooooo far.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Honestly, its quite offensive to compare the palestinian situation to concentration camps....I'm not a jew, but I think most jew would find the use of your comparison offensive. Using those words as you have does disservice to every person who died or lost family in an actual concentration camp. The situation if more like an occupation, but only to a point. You have many cultures, religions believing they have this or that right to that land. You have a history of christians building on top of Islam, Islam building on top of Christian over and over in the same small piece of dirt.  You nor I will never change that. Its a battle over thousands of years and probably a thousand years from now. But calling it a concentration camp really goes tooooooo far.

Serge is half jewish.

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Honestly, its quite offensive to compare the palestinian situation to concentration camps....I'm not a jew, but I think most jew would find the use of your comparison offensive. Using those words as you have does disservice to every person who died or lost family in an actual concentration camp. The situation if more like an occupation, but only to a point. You have many cultures, religions believing they have this or that right to that land. You have a history of christians building on top of Islam, Islam building on top of Christian over and over in the same small piece of dirt.  You nor I will never change that. Its a battle over thousands of years and probably a thousand years from now. But calling it a concentration camp really goes tooooooo far.

Serge is half jewish.

Then he should know better.

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

The whole Palestine is a big concentration camp.

Qalqilya in particular is nightmarish. If this isn't a concentration camp I don't know what is. And I have been to Dachau. The Israelis should be ashamed of themselves. How can Qalqilya possibly have any sort of economy at all!

pretty simple:  stop killing innocent people!  Stop allowing your people to be used as pawns of militant Islam

when you've been to Dachau, likely it was after it was in operation.  You may rethink your statement had you been there in the early 1940s.

On the plus side, i envy their wall.  that thing rocks!  However, in the US, i give it 5 mins before it gets tagged top to bottom with graffiti

curious though...on your satellite pictures:  what does that supposedly show?  to me it could have been a comparison between springtime and the height of summer.  i suspect you intended to show devastation of the city of some sort but help my eyes to see - i can't make it out.

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

The whole Palestine is a big concentration camp.

Qalqilya in particular is nightmarish. If this isn't a concentration camp I don't know what is. And I have been to Dachau. The Israelis should be ashamed of themselves. How can Qalqilya possibly have any sort of economy at all!

pretty simple:  stop killing innocent people!  Stop allowing your people to be used as pawns of militant Islam

when you've been to Dachau, likely it was after it was in operation.  You may rethink your statement had you been there in the early 1940s.

On the plus side, i envy their wall.  that thing rocks!  However, in the US, i give it 5 mins before it gets tagged top to bottom with graffiti

curious though...on your satellite pictures:  what does that supposedly show?  to me it could have been a comparison between springtime and the height of summer.  i suspect you intended to show devastation of the city of some sort but help my eyes to see - i can't make it out.

They built the wall completely 100% circling the entire city. There is no in and no out save for an Israeli controlled checkpoint which lord knows takes how long to get through. It's essentially the Warsaw Ghetto part deux. The tyrannised engaging in tyranny. Collective punishment of a most heinous kind.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-26 15:11:48)

stef10 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Honestly, its quite offensive to compare the palestinian situation to concentration camps....I'm not a jew, but I think most jew would find the use of your comparison offensive. Using those words as you have does disservice to every person who died or lost family in an actual concentration camp. The situation if more like an occupation, but only to a point. You have many cultures, religions believing they have this or that right to that land. You have a history of christians building on top of Islam, Islam building on top of Christian over and over in the same small piece of dirt.  You nor I will never change that. Its a battle over thousands of years and probably a thousand years from now. But calling it a concentration camp really goes tooooooo far.

Serge is half jewish.

There is nothing as half-Jewish

Ethnically speaking he is of jewish heritage. One of his parents is jewish.

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

The whole Palestine is a big concentration camp.

Qalqilya in particular is nightmarish. If this isn't a concentration camp I don't know what is. And I have been to Dachau. The Israelis should be ashamed of themselves. How can Qalqilya possibly have any sort of economy at all!

http://www.lysistrataproject.org/assets … yaWall.jpg

Before...

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/u … 020303.jpg

After...

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/u … 030607.jpg

This map paints a pretty picture... (not the green line: the internationally recognised border of Palestine)

http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/pictures/Qalqilya.jpg

Pretty street view...

http://www1.autistici.org/liberapalesti … lya_02.jpg


Similarities? The Warsaw Ghetto:

http://www.johndclare.net/images/WarsawGhetto_wall.JPG

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Wa … oRuins.jpg

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/%7b9 … /ivmap.gif

Oh look at all the pretty pictures!!! Your context is WAY, WAY off. Concentration camps and ghettos were two different things. Dont show pictures of ghettos when we are talking about concrentration camps. Those camps were used for genocide. There are not mass graves of palestinians that were burned or killed by gas. There arent train loads of Palestinian dead piled on top of each other. Your pictures only show that it looks like a Ghetto.....concentration camps are something far different used for a very different evil cause. There is no comparison.

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-06-26 15:20:10)

CameronPoe wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

if Nicaragua invaded Mexico after Mexico attacked it, and Nicaragua 'won' taking land from Mexico, the Mexicans (AKA Spansh speaking Palestinians) that lived in those areas would either have to move to Mexico (new borderline) or live in the new larger Nicaragua.  If they refused to be absorbed in the new country or were prevented from doing so, why doesn't their home country (Mexico in this case) take them back?   They are, after all mexican citizens.

The flaw in the analogy is actually that in the Israeli scenario Nicaragua never existed to begin with and many would argue that they shouldn't have been told they could 'take a chunk of Mexico' but should have been given a chunk of Guatemala ('Germany'). Israel (Nicaragua) has taken ALL of Palestine (Mexico) and forbids the 'right of return' of Palestinians to the West Bank or Gaza. So your second analogy correction falters on that count. 'Mexico' can't take them back even if it wanted to.

i was under the impression that the palestinian israeli citizens that i work with day to day became israeli in 1948.  in fact, they enjoy comfortable lives in Israel and don't live in cardboard boxes or bombed out homes.  Why aren't these israeli citizens in the camps?

In 1967 or 1973 (you probably can educate me here), arab states attacked Israel and Israel beat them back taking some land from them in the process (west bank? golan heights, gaza strip).  These people in these lands are the people in the 'camps', no?  These camps were not originally part of Israel but of its neighbors that attacked. 

So, in this context, i see your point that mexico 'ceased-to-exist'.  However, later, let's say US attacked the larger Nicaragua and Nicaragua beat the US and took Texas.  Then should the US absorb the US people in Texas/Nicaragua?  Is this more accurate as to your original intent?  One may argue that since the US has plenty of land, that the Nicaraguans can enjoy all the fire-ants they want in Texas.  Others might argue that we (the US) should fight back and take the land back.

Now, if you are in the latter camp (fight back), then why aren't the countries affected (namely US in my analogy and lebanon/Jordan/Egypt in the real life example) trying to fight israel outright?  no, instead they choose to fight proxy war using Palestinians as pawns for political pressure since they know that they will not win militarily against the US even without US help. 

Why doesn't the rest of the world really side with the palestinian plight?  Because they kill innocent people and hide amongst other innocents so when law enforcement attempts to do anything, then of course those innocents become collateral damage.  this is a no win situation but it is where we find ourselves today.

also, if my history or view is incorrect, please explain what is the distinction between palestinians living inside/outside of the camps.  why some are in and some are out?