BF2S Forums US Supreme Court requires race-neutral school assignments

is there enough emphasis on education within the minority communities?  what can we do to improve that situation?  is the perceived 'hip-hop culture' at fault here for promoting pimps and hos mentality?  what can the parents do more to encourage their children to excel in school?  what can educators do to reach out to their communities (ie, parents) to get them more involved?  What can society do to promote education as 'cool'.  these kidns of things actually aren't even tied to race, but i tend to see them be problems more-so for some minorities and/or econmically challenged people. 

i'm all for diversity.  However, with diversity comes the likelihood of lowering the quality of education to the lowest common denominator.  Consider the case in CA schools where you have 9347839847 different languages.  How can we expect our educators to learn all those languagse and be fluent?  Might it be better to ask the people to pony up and actually learn a common language (eg, English)?  How can we ensure those that are deficient to begin with can be brought up to speed so as to not sacrifice the best and brightest? 

i understand the tenet of diversity is to improve things since you get other viewpoints.  but...tell me:  how many different viewpoints can there be with math?  science?  at the end of the day 1+1=2 no matter how you look at it and what culture/background you are from.

i don't see 'color' as the issue so much as lack of a push for these kids to excel.  it's unfortunate.

Schwarzelungen wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

i'm all for diversity.  However, with diversity comes the likelihood of lowering the quality of education to the lowest common denominator.  .

I always enjoy more diverse classrooms.  In my experiences I get more of out of classrooms with students of all different backgrounds that I do with a class with no diversity.  I dont know how to teach History without looking at differing opinions.

yes, i agree.  it's wonderful when you can see more than one side to arguments.  i sincerely believe this.  On a personal note, this diversity of opinion ideal would be quite refreshing since my experiences with liberal arts in college classes were 9/10 times taught by a hippy/communist and if you dissented in their 'world view' (that would be me) you got a shi**y grade not to mention you would get scorn from your classmates for being a 'heathen'.

my original point was that if you have people that can't contribute due to ability, they should be placed in an atmosphere where they can be brought up to speed first.  then, you can put them in that history class with you.  another way to approach this would be to dumb down your class perhaps lowering the quality of education that you receive as a whole.  i prefer the former. 

but again, i agree that diversity is a good thing - just needs to be managed well AND not negatively impact people's abliity to learn.

Last edited by CaptainSpaulding71 (2007-06-28 11:19:02)

i went to Penn State for a few years and then saw the light and transferred to University of Pittsburgh.  i had to take cultural anthropology, political science, and a few other 'humanities' classes to fulfil my requirements towards a BS in Electrical Engineering.  I'm not claiming i'm an excellent student by any means however i did feel alot of pressure to not have very differing opinions at the time.  i opened my mouth a few times and the whole class turned around and glared at me.  not comforting.  Now that i'm a crusty 36 year old, i could care less what people think.  i'd just wink at them and laugh.  however, when you are younger i guess for some it might matter more.

Schwarzelungen, good luck to you.  i wish you folks were valued more and paid more than you currently are.  my community recently was up in arms over a 5% pay increase to teachers that haven't seen any increases in 3 years and have to pay for supplies out of pocket, etc.  the argument was that teachers only work 9 months out of the year and that 5% when you extrapolate to 12 months was a huge chunk of dough.  this kind of crap illustrates that people don't want to pay for anything of quality.  unfortunate.  teachers have it rough even beyond the pay and respect issues and i'm sure you have some good stories.  My dad taught junior high health/phys-ed, so he saw all the good with all the bad.  good luck

The 'continuing impact' of slavery is psychological. Officials have told these people that they are owed something in order to gain more votes. Nothing more, nothing less. What about the crimes of the British committed against my ancestors? The Romans? Do I feel like they owe me something? No.

I agree that we should stop discriminating on the basis of race, but it has to go both ways. Once a group of people no longer thinks that they deserve special rights that put them above everyone else, then they will be more easily accepted into the workplace.

For example, there are businesses who would rather declare bankruptcy on the spot than get into a court tiff with a black man who thinks he's been fired because he's black (i.e., wants to wring the business for all the money he can get). Do you think they'll be inclined to hire more black people when they surreptitiously start up again under a new name? It's vicious, but true.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-06-28 14:54:14)

quotas are a bunch of crap.  what should happen is to take race out of the application - that's fine because it has nothing to do with how a person should be able to do a job.  i would also argue that one should take sex out of the application as well.  obviously all of this becomes known when you physically interview them.  however, when you have a bunch of resumes and are scanning them, i would think you should be looking at their job experiences, school grades, accomplishments, etc and not their personal status (even if they are married, gay, etc).

if we do that, we ensure that we get the most qualified people working for the company.  a company thrives in that case.  if you are forced to take people who are not up to snuff, this creates animosity between the new hire and the other employees because they can see the guy/gal not pulling their share. 

on the other side of the coin, you can have a weaker candidate that shows more potential for improvement than the stronger candidate.  I've seen guys from MIT, Stanford, etc and i see guys from the state schools.  In some cases the guys from the state schools totally blow the ivy league guys away because they are driven and really work hard.  no prima-dona attitude there.

so, i think hiring should be based entirely on capability, accomplishments, and merit - not on race, gender, sexual orientation.

some of my more crazy friends might argue that if a person is 'gay' that it might affect workplace environment.  This may be due to the other employees.  of course the employer should encourage/mandate that the employees take sensitivity training to help educate.  I think some things however are perhaps too ingrained so even with education you won't reach 100% of the employees.

some more crazy people might argue that to hire a woman over a man and then she immediately gets pregnant and is on maternity leave for 3 months.  then, she starts pushing out these puppies like every year or two.  That might put the company in a difficult situation.  The company needs to then hire a temp or push the work on the existing employees to cover her slack.  On her end, she's enjoying some employer paid benefits (possibly).  not sure how fair this is.  there has to be a balance.

any constructive comments on these points?

I agree that quotas are bullshit. As has been said, they are discriminating themselves, because they allow applicants of a certain ethnicity to attend schools even if their grades are worse than those of other ( caucasian, asian, whatever ) applicants.

The US will never leave its slavery history behind if it allows these practices to continue. The only criteria for applicants should be grades, experience, etc, not ethnic background, gender, sexual preferences, religion or marital status.

As has been pointed out, the real problem lies not with the ethnicity, but with early education and motivation of young children of all ethnic backgrounds.

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

...is there enough emphasis on education within the minority communities?  what can we do to improve that situation?  is the perceived 'hip-hop culture' at fault here for promoting pimps and hos mentality?  what can the parents do more to encourage their children to excel in school?  what can educators do to reach out to their communities (ie, parents) to get them more involved?  What can society do to promote education as 'cool'.  these kidns of things actually aren't even tied to race, but i tend to see them be problems more-so for some minorities and/or econmically challenged people.

true.

iamangry wrote:

...
In the debate tonight one guy stood up and talked about "Black America".  There is no "Black America", or "White America", or "Mexican America", only "America".  This person also said minorities need help achieving.  Is that why in the state of Virginia the only ethnicity not under represented in colleges is Asian?  Do they not count as minorities as well?  Do they not start out in this country with next to nothing?  They're at even a bigger disadvantage as their language isn't even similar to ours, yet they succeed.  How does the "Black and Mexican people are not allowed to escape the poverty" community of thinkers account for this??

also true. In an ideal world, that is. However, I think we both agree that there are profound differences between people of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, mostly based on their experience growing up and what their leaders tell them about their specific "history".
The black community has in the past focused strongly on pointing out the differences between themselves and "white america", because that has been a huge source of power, self-identification and pride for them. Roots, I guess.

During times when "White America" was looking down on afro-americans, this concentration on their african heritage helped them survive, and made them stronger, as they faced the horrors of the 50's and 60's ( segregation, the KKK, you know what I mean ).

And even though all of that is now behind us ( you, that is ), it will be very hard to convince the black community that we are all the same.
Why ? Because for generations, through quotas and the teachings of their own spiritual leaders, they have been taught that they are different.

And this is why I support what the Chief Justice said.

"'The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

Remove the quotas, remove the "race" field from all application forms, and start judging applicants by their grades and work experience only.

The quotas will hold you back, not help you move forward. Maybe they were a necessary evil during times when "White America" had to be forced to allow afro-americans into their schools, universities and offices, but those times are over. America is ready for the next step. So I hope....

san4 wrote:

If you enslave people for two hundred years they are going to be fucked up for generations. That's why Chief Justice John Roberts is full of shit when he says that the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. It's a catchy phrase, but you can't reach back and stop the continuing impact of slavery.

Associated Press wrote:

June 28, 2007
Justices Limit Use of Race in Placement of Students

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected integration plans in two major public school districts but left the door open for the limited use of race to achieve diversity in schools.

The decision in cases affecting how students are assigned to schools in Louisville, Ky., and Seattle could imperil similar plans in hundreds of districts nationwide, and it further restricted how public school systems may attain racial diversity.

The court split, 5-4, with Chief Justice John Roberts announcing the court's judgment. The court's four liberal justices dissented.

''The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race,'' Roberts said.

This is one of those rare moments where I agree with Roberts.  It's like when they ruled on eminent domain.  The more conservative jurors in both cases came up with the more sensible responses, but thankfully, this time they actually won the ruling.

Affirmative action is bullshit.  Maybe 40 years ago it was necessary, but not today.  A class-based system designed to help the poor regardless of race would make far more sense than a race-based one.

Kudos to the court for this one....